IN THE MIDST OF COVID19, WHAT'S NEXT IN BIBLE PROPHECY?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, luigi said:

So according to your perspective, the Lord goes to battle with a non corporal spiritual prince in Persia? I can agree that the Lord fights with spiritual darkness throughout the world, but to specifically go to fight spiritual darkness in Persia, indicates the darkness being within the rulers in Persia.

In Daniel 10 an angel came to give Daniel a message. "Gabriel" is not mentioned, but I think it was Gabriel. He was sent the day Daniel began to fast, but demonic forces would not let him through. Finally Michael came to assist. Then the angel said he would have to fight again (I guess on his way back to heaven) the same spiritual forces.

Ellicott's Commentary  10:13

Perhaps no single verse in the whole of the Scriptures speaks more clearly than this upon the invisible powers which rule and influence nations. If we were without a revelation, we should have thought it congruent that God Himself should direct all events in the world without using any intervening means. But revelation points out that as spiritual beings carry out God’s purpose in the natural world (Exodus 12:23; 2Samuel 24:16) and in the moral world (Luke 15:10), so also they do in the political world. From this chapter we not only learn that Israel had a spiritual champion (Daniel 10:21) to protect her in her national life, and to watch over her interests, but also that the powers opposed to Israel had their princes, or saviours, which were antagonists of those which watched over Israel. The “princes” of the heathen powers are devils, according to 1Corinthians 10:20.

Benson Commentary:

 Others suppose the contest to be between a good and an evil angel, as in Zechariah 3:1, and Jude, Daniel 10:9, “which latter opinion,” says Wintle, “is perhaps the most just, as there should seem to be no dispute, or contest, between the ministering spirits of heaven, who are always obedient to the pleasure of their Lord. And when the Almighty sent a superior angel, Michael, whose name is sometimes given to Christ himself, Revelation 12:7, his office probably was to assist Gabriel in subduing the prince of the power of the air, the powers of this darksome world, or the spirits that rule over the children of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2. The opposition was made twenty-one days; and as this was exactly the number of days that Daniel fasted, the contest may possibly have some allusion to this struggle.

Barn's notes:

 

 In Daniel 8:25, in the phrase "Prince of princes," it refers to God. So far as the word is concerned in the phrase "prince of the kingdom of Persia," it might refer to a prince ruling over that kingdom, or to a prime minister of the state; but the language also is such that it is applicable to an angelic being supposed to preside over a state, or to influence its counsels. If this idea is admitted; if it is believed that angels do thus preside over particular states, this language would properly express that fact. Gesenius (Lexicon) explains it in this passage as denoting the "chiefs, princes, and angels; i. e., the archangels acting as patrons and advocates of particular nations before God." That this is the proper meaning here as deduced from the words is apparent, for

(a) it is an angel that is speaking, and it would seem most natural to suppose that he had encountered one of his own rank;

(b) the mention of Michael who came to his aid - a name which, as we shall see, properly denotes an angel, leads to the same conclusion;

(c) it accords, also, with the prevailing belief on the subject.

Undoubtedly, one who takes into view all the circumstances referred to in this passage would most naturally understand this of an angelic being, having some kind of jurisdiction over the kingdom of Persia. What was the character of this "prince," however, whether he was a good or bad angel, is not intimated by the language. It is only implied that he had a chieftainship, or some species of guardian care over that kingdom - watching over its interests and directing its affairs. As he offered resistance, however, to this heavenly messenger on his way to Daniel, as it was necessary to counteract his plans, and as the aid of Michael was required to overcome his opposition, the fair construction is, that he belonged to the class of evil angels.

JFB Commentary:

prince of … Persia—the angel of darkness that represented the Persian world power, to which Israel was then subject. This verse gives the reason why, though Daniel's "words were heard from the first day" (Da 10:12), the good angel did not come to him until more than three weeks had elapsed (Da 10:4).

one and twenty days—answering to the three weeks of Daniel's mourning (Da 10:2).

Michael—that is, "Who is like God?" Though an archangel, "one of the chief princes," Michael was not to be compared to God.

help me—Michael, as patron of Israel before God (Da 10:21; 12:1), "helped" to influence the Persian king to permit the Jews' return to Jerusalem.

I remained—I was detained there with the kings of Persia, that is, with the angel of the Persian rulers, with whom I had to contend, and from whom I should not have got free, but for the help of Michael. Gesenius translates, "I obtained the ascendency," that is, I gained my point against the adverse angel of Persia, so as to influence the Persian authorities to favor Israel's restoration.

As you can see, the commentaries seem all to agree that in verse ten, it is a battle between good and evil angels. 

However, it seems for verse 20 the commentaries are not in agreement:

Benson Commentary:

And now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia — With the evil angel, who, under “the god of this world,” presides over Persia; or rather, with the present ruling prince of Persia, whether Cambyses or any other person then intrusted with the chief power, whose designs against the Jews this angel was employed in counteracting, and would continue to counteract, as also those of every future prince of that kingdom, till it should be overturned by the Greeks. 

He thought "prince of Persia" in one verse is a demonic spirit, but here he prefers a human being. Go figure!

Barne's notes:

The simple meaning of this is, that it would be necessary to exert a farther influence at the Persian court in order to bring about the object desired; and this fact is expressed in language derived from the belief that angelic beings, good and bad, have much to do in controlling the minds of men.

Again Barnes is of the opinion that verse 20 is referring to men and not angels.

JFB Commentary:

the angel declares he will return to renew the fight with the evil angel, the prince of Persia. 

JFB sticks with his comments on 10:13 and believes this prince of Persia is the same demonic force.

Gill's Commentary:

and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia; the evil spirit, in the court of Persia, he had been contesting with before, and had got the better of by the help of Michael;

 

²⁰ Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

Perhaps he is foretelling here that Alexander the Great will come soon, OR perhaps the Spiritual ruler over Greece will come WITH Alexander. 

I think in both verses, 13 & 20, Gabriel is speaking of Demonic forces. It is certain in verse 13; not so certain in verse 20.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You said yourself that 12:1 is the days of great tribulation. Are those days still future? Is the resurrection still future? 

You know these things are future.  Just as God told John that he would write things about the future (which he certainly did) he also included things in the past. Why disagree over something so minor?  Daniel 2 was for the past, but also seems to point to the future. Daniel 7 seems to point to the image of Daniel 2, but again is for the future.  Daniel 11 started with the days of Alexanders's four generals, but ended up future to us. 

In other words, there is still many things in Daniel still in our future.

 

I wonder, do you put so much weight in "shortly come to pass" in Rev. 1 that you think all or most of Revelation was past?  

Daniel 12:1 which are the worst of times are the days of tribulation, at the end of which is a resurrection, and is in our future. The events shown Daniel in chapters 11 & 12 are end time events as Daniel 12:4  & 9 clearly indicate. There is no more I can argue with you about this as you continue to deny this data in favor of your man made commentaries that claim these events having occurred in the 2nd century BC. Good night and good luck.

[ENOCH2010]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In Daniel 10 an angel came to give Daniel a message. "Gabriel" is not mentioned, but I think it was Gabriel. He was sent the day Daniel began to fast, but demonic forces would not let him through. Finally Michael came to assist. Then the angel said he would have to fight again (I guess on his way back to heaven) the same spiritual forces.

Ellicott's Commentary  10:13

Perhaps no single verse in the whole of the Scriptures speaks more clearly than this upon the invisible powers which rule and influence nations. If we were without a revelation, we should have thought it congruent that God Himself should direct all events in the world without using any intervening means. But revelation points out that as spiritual beings carry out God’s purpose in the natural world (Exodus 12:23; 2Samuel 24:16) and in the moral world (Luke 15:10), so also they do in the political world. From this chapter we not only learn that Israel had a spiritual champion (Daniel 10:21) to protect her in her national life, and to watch over her interests, but also that the powers opposed to Israel had their princes, or saviours, which were antagonists of those which watched over Israel. The “princes” of the heathen powers are devils, according to 1Corinthians 10:20.

Benson Commentary:

 Others suppose the contest to be between a good and an evil angel, as in Zechariah 3:1, and Jude, Daniel 10:9, “which latter opinion,” says Wintle, “is perhaps the most just, as there should seem to be no dispute, or contest, between the ministering spirits of heaven, who are always obedient to the pleasure of their Lord. And when the Almighty sent a superior angel, Michael, whose name is sometimes given to Christ himself, Revelation 12:7, his office probably was to assist Gabriel in subduing the prince of the power of the air, the powers of this darksome world, or the spirits that rule over the children of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2. The opposition was made twenty-one days; and as this was exactly the number of days that Daniel fasted, the contest may possibly have some allusion to this struggle.

Barn's notes:

 

 In Daniel 8:25, in the phrase "Prince of princes," it refers to God. So far as the word is concerned in the phrase "prince of the kingdom of Persia," it might refer to a prince ruling over that kingdom, or to a prime minister of the state; but the language also is such that it is applicable to an angelic being supposed to preside over a state, or to influence its counsels. If this idea is admitted; if it is believed that angels do thus preside over particular states, this language would properly express that fact. Gesenius (Lexicon) explains it in this passage as denoting the "chiefs, princes, and angels; i. e., the archangels acting as patrons and advocates of particular nations before God." That this is the proper meaning here as deduced from the words is apparent, for

(a) it is an angel that is speaking, and it would seem most natural to suppose that he had encountered one of his own rank;

(b) the mention of Michael who came to his aid - a name which, as we shall see, properly denotes an angel, leads to the same conclusion;

(c) it accords, also, with the prevailing belief on the subject.

Undoubtedly, one who takes into view all the circumstances referred to in this passage would most naturally understand this of an angelic being, having some kind of jurisdiction over the kingdom of Persia. What was the character of this "prince," however, whether he was a good or bad angel, is not intimated by the language. It is only implied that he had a chieftainship, or some species of guardian care over that kingdom - watching over its interests and directing its affairs. As he offered resistance, however, to this heavenly messenger on his way to Daniel, as it was necessary to counteract his plans, and as the aid of Michael was required to overcome his opposition, the fair construction is, that he belonged to the class of evil angels.

JFB Commentary:

prince of … Persia—the angel of darkness that represented the Persian world power, to which Israel was then subject. This verse gives the reason why, though Daniel's "words were heard from the first day" (Da 10:12), the good angel did not come to him until more than three weeks had elapsed (Da 10:4).

one and twenty days—answering to the three weeks of Daniel's mourning (Da 10:2).

Michael—that is, "Who is like God?" Though an archangel, "one of the chief princes," Michael was not to be compared to God.

help me—Michael, as patron of Israel before God (Da 10:21; 12:1), "helped" to influence the Persian king to permit the Jews' return to Jerusalem.

I remained—I was detained there with the kings of Persia, that is, with the angel of the Persian rulers, with whom I had to contend, and from whom I should not have got free, but for the help of Michael. Gesenius translates, "I obtained the ascendency," that is, I gained my point against the adverse angel of Persia, so as to influence the Persian authorities to favor Israel's restoration.

As you can see, the commentaries seem all to agree that in verse ten, it is a battle between good and evil angels. 

However, it seems for verse 20 the commentaries are not in agreement:

Benson Commentary:

And now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia — With the evil angel, who, under “the god of this world,” presides over Persia; or rather, with the present ruling prince of Persia, whether Cambyses or any other person then intrusted with the chief power, whose designs against the Jews this angel was employed in counteracting, and would continue to counteract, as also those of every future prince of that kingdom, till it should be overturned by the Greeks. 

He thought "prince of Persia" in one verse is a demonic spirit, but here he prefers a human being. Go figure!

Barne's notes:

The simple meaning of this is, that it would be necessary to exert a farther influence at the Persian court in order to bring about the object desired; and this fact is expressed in language derived from the belief that angelic beings, good and bad, have much to do in controlling the minds of men.

Again Barnes is of the opinion that verse 20 is referring to men and not angels.

JFB Commentary:

the angel declares he will return to renew the fight with the evil angel, the prince of Persia. 

JFB sticks with his comments on 10:13 and believes this prince of Persia is the same demonic force.

Gill's Commentary:

and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia; the evil spirit, in the court of Persia, he had been contesting with before, and had got the better of by the help of Michael;

 

²⁰ Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

Perhaps he is foretelling here that Alexander the Great will come soon, OR perhaps the Spiritual ruler over Greece will come WITH Alexander. 

I think in both verses, 13 & 20, Gabriel is speaking of Demonic forces. It is certain in verse 13; not so certain in verse 20.

For somebody that says God speaks to audibly, you sure do read a lot of commentaries.   

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

For somebody that says God speaks to audibly, you sure do read a lot of commentaries.   

No one can turn God on or off like a switch. He speaks when HE wants to.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

TO BUILD THE THIRD TEMPLE.  You asked: "Will it be the Jewish Government, the United Nations,  Donald Trump or the POPE ???

The Jewish Government will not build Temple, neither Donald Trump, much less the United Nations. The Pope also will not do that, but here goes what will happen and what the Pope will do: 

There will not be the construction of the supposed physical third temple, it is being prophesied or preached deceitfully. The esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist Jews or the religion of Judaism, they will not build any temple in this new millennium, absolutely, but a world religious Empire through their peculiar Messiah (John 5:v.43-44-Check it). Their messiah, called Elyiahu, will manifest himself very soon, so,  when their messiah manifest himself in Jerusalem, they will make a deal with the Beast of sea (Revelation 13:1-10)through their messiah, by the way, an IMPOSTOR, and he will give to the Beast of sea his Power, and his Seat, and great Authority, as is prophesied in Revelation 13:v.2, and the Beast of sea will rule the Antichrist's Empire by 42 months or 1260 days -Revelation 13:v.5- which will be established between both false Messiah and the Pope - Catholicism and Judaism - Iron and Clay.

In this new millennium, the seventh and last millennium, will not be built another Temple, but this one written in John 2: v.18-21. 

So when the REAL Messiah comes, He will descend in the Vatican?

[luigi]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh!  The Day of the Lord, Wonderful Day for many people, the God's people,  and those which will ENDURE UNTIL THE END, only these will be saved. JESUS said:  Matt.24:v.14- And this gospel of the KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END come.   

Luke 17:v.24- 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his Day.  Question: Will not be this Day that JESUS refers itself, the Day of the Lord?  Who is the Son of man? Is not JESUS? Of course is. 

JESUS said: Luke 17:v.29-30and32- 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the Day when the Son of man is REVEALED. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

Analysing the words of the Lord JESUS, saying: it rained FIRE and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and neighboring cities? Genesis 19:v.12-14:12-

12 And the MEN -two men- one was Michael, the arcahangel) said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: (Today this place is the World of Devil in which we are living, and it will be DISSOLVED, yeah, DISSOLVED. JESUS said in His prayer: John 17:v.15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.)

13 For we will destroy this place (today, this place is the World of Devil), because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. (The same occurs today, there are a lot of mockers among God's people, joke tellers, evil spirits)

But what kind of FIRE will fall today upon all nations? Well, what does the Word of God reveal? 

First the Word is God, the invisible God is hidden in the letter of Scriptures, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, the Word is of heaven. The Word is Spirit, the everlasting Spirit of God-the Word-is a devouring FIRE, a consuming FIRE. 
That said, when I preach the righteous Judgment of God, under His command, and say by the Word of God - by the Old Testament and by the New Testament, the TWO WITNESSES of God-Romans 2:v.12-16,  that the time of the punishment and destruction of this world of Devil has arrived, and that will be poured specific plagues, and also terrible events will occur in accord the wrath of God, then, the Word, God, falls as a FIRE against the whole world of Devil, and burns it by entire literally, in accord the plagues that was announced or preached. 

By the way, the FIRST plague, the PESTILENCE plague, has already fall upon ALL NATIONS, inclusive upon Israel, besides the side effects like economic collapse, and desorganization of all kind of systems and structures of the World of Devil in the current time. In this moment, we are living in the beginning of sorrows, the PESTILENCE IS already running, and will continue yet, chastising the whole world. 

The wrath of God-the Word is God-has determined, by written, to send FAMINES and EARTHQUAKES in several places now, even now, in the beginning of sorrows, it will be terrible. I do not know what places God has chosen to cause these earthquakes in the days ahead or from now on, by the way, anyone of them may occur in place where never happened before, in places not linked with tectonic plates, an unknown phenomena for the human science. Surely, the worst will come in near future, at last we are living in the END of the world of the Devil, and he will be cast into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more. 

Good day Oseas Ramos de Siqueira, I agree with much of what state here, with the current pandemic being one of the beginning of sorrows. We still have a long way to go, however, with things getting considerably worse as depicted in the Olivets and in the four horsemen of the apocalypse. As these dire situations represent those when the Lord is shaking the earth in Hebrews 12:26, the Lord will then also shake heaven, causing the devil along with his angels to be shaken out from heaven and cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9). Once on earth, the devil will vest the beast with his power causing the beasts rising from the sea (Revelation 13:1), which is another description for the bottomless pit (Revelation 17:8). All who are not written in the lambs book of life will then adore the beasts new system (Revelation 13:4 and 8).  The beasts system will run for 1,260 days before commencing to collapse, which is what represents the Lords wrath in Revelation 16 coming upon those who adore the beasts system. 

So here is the question: Does the day of the Lord include the worst of times for the saints prior to and during the beasts reign?, or does the day of the Lord solely represent the Lord's wrath upon the worshippers of the beast in Revelation 16?, or does the day of the Lord include both? In my opinion, the day of the Lord includes the entire time in which the Lord shakes the earth and heaven, including the 1,260 days in which the devil, the beast, and the beasts mouth (the Antichrist), reign. I do not, however, consider the wrath of God that befalls the beasts worshippers to represent the day of the Lord, as that is solely a negative result for the faithless. In other words, I see the day of the Lord in which He shakes out all that can be shaken out on earth and in heaven as a positive event for those who believe in Christ. I could be wrong and the day of the Lord could include all three time frames, but who knows?

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh!  The Day of the Lord, Wonderful Day for many people, the God's people,  and those which will ENDURE UNTIL THE END, only these will be saved. JESUS said:  Matt.24:v.14- And this gospel of the KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END come.   

Luke 17:v.24- 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his Day.  Question: Will not be this Day that JESUS refers itself, the Day of the Lord?  Who is the Son of man? Is not JESUS? Of course is. 

JESUS said: Luke 17:v.29-30and32- 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the Day when the Son of man is REVEALED. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

Analysing the words of the Lord JESUS, saying: it rained FIRE and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and neighboring cities? Genesis 19:v.12-14:12-

12 And the MEN -two men- one was Michael, the arcahangel) said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: (Today this place is the World of Devil in which we are living, and it will be DISSOLVED, yeah, DISSOLVED. JESUS said in His prayer: John 17:v.15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.)

13 For we will destroy this place (today, this place is the World of Devil), because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. (The same occurs today, there are a lot of mockers among God's people, joke tellers, evil spirits)

But what kind of FIRE will fall today upon all nations? Well, what does the Word of God reveal? 

First the Word is God, the invisible God is hidden in the letter of Scriptures, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, the Word is of heaven. The Word is Spirit, the everlasting Spirit of God-the Word-is a devouring FIRE, a consuming FIRE. 
That said, when I preach the righteous Judgment of God, under His command, and say by the Word of God - by the Old Testament and by the New Testament, the TWO WITNESSES of God-Romans 2:v.12-16,  that the time of the punishment and destruction of this world of Devil has arrived, and that will be poured specific plagues, and also terrible events will occur in accord the wrath of God, then, the Word, God, falls as a FIRE against the whole world of Devil, and burns it by entire literally, in accord the plagues that was announced or preached. 

By the way, the FIRST plague, the PESTILENCE plague, has already fall upon ALL NATIONS, inclusive upon Israel, besides the side effects like economic collapse, and desorganization of all kind of systems and structures of the World of Devil in the current time. In this moment, we are living in the beginning of sorrows, the PESTILENCE IS already running, and will continue yet, chastising the whole world. 

The wrath of God-the Word is God-has determined, by written, to send FAMINES and EARTHQUAKES in several places now, even now, in the beginning of sorrows, it will be terrible. I do not know what places God has chosen to cause these earthquakes in the days ahead or from now on, by the way, anyone of them may occur in place where never happened before, in places not linked with tectonic plates, an unknown phenomena for the human science. Surely, the worst will come in near future, at last we are living in the END of the world of the Devil, and he will be cast into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more. 

How about we use the word of God instead of human imagination? The Day of the Lord, Wonderful Day for many people, the God's people Sorry, that is not scripture: HERE is scripture.

Amos 5:18 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁸ Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

There is nothing in the Day of the Lord for the righteous: it is a dark day of WRATH for the sinner. That is why Paul shows us the rapture will come BEFORE The Day of the Lord. 

those which will ENDURE UNTIL THE END  WHO is this talking too? It is not to the church: we WON'T BE HERE. It is pointed directly at those who miss the rapture and try to survive the 70th week - you know, that week of 7 years that is fro the descendants of Jacob - that time of Jacob's trouble.

and this gospel of the KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world   When will this happen? Who will accomplish this just before "the end?" It will be done by ANGELS as shown in Rev. 14. They will preach to every human in their own language.

Will not be this Day that JESUS refers itself, the Day of the Lord?   Human reasoning again. Why not just believe John and then not have to reason things out - in error? John tells us the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal - before the 70th week or Jacob's trouble begins.  However, since THE DAY started before this point of His coming in Glory, and will last much past this day, of course it IS the Day of the Lord when He comes - but the day does not BEGIN there.

the same day that Lot went out of Sodom   What was Jesus intent here in mentioning Lot? The fire and brimstone? NO! Jesus was talking of the SUDDENNESS of their destruction.

and it will be DISSOLVED, yeah, DISSOLVED  This is speaking of something FAR FAR into our future, AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ.

But what kind of FIRE   It will be the fire that is HOT and burns. Regular fire; GOD's fire. Paul said the works of man on earth would be TRIED by fire - REAL fire. Fire that burns things up. 

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world  When someone gets born again, do they suddenly disappear and go to heaven? NO! God leaves us here on earth to work for Him.

I would rather watch Columbo that correct errors.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, luigi said:

Good day Oseas Ramos de Siqueira, I agree with much of what state here, with the current pandemic being one of the beginning of sorrows. We still have a long way to go, however, with things getting considerably worse as depicted in the Olivets and in the four horsemen of the apocalypse. As these dire situations represent those when the Lord is shaking the earth in Hebrews 12:26, the Lord will then also shake heaven, causing the devil along with his angels to be shaken out from heaven and cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9). Once on earth, the devil will vest the beast with his power causing the beasts rising from the sea (Revelation 13:1), which is another description for the bottomless pit (Revelation 17:8). All who are not written in the lambs book of life will then adore the beasts new system (Revelation 13:4 and 8).  The beasts system will run for 1,260 days before commencing to collapse, which is what represents the Lords wrath in Revelation 16 coming upon those who adore the beasts system. 

So here is the question: Does the day of the Lord include the worst of times for the saints prior to and during the beasts reign?, or does the day of the Lord solely represent the Lord's wrath upon the worshippers of the beast in Revelation 16?, or does the day of the Lord include both? In my opinion, the day of the Lord includes the entire time in which the Lord shakes the earth and heaven, including the 1,260 days in which the devil, the beast, and the beasts mouth (the Antichrist), reign. I do not, however, consider the wrath of God that befalls the beasts worshippers to represent the day of the Lord, as that is solely a negative result for the faithless. In other words, I see the day of the Lord in which He shakes out all that can be shaken out on earth and in heaven as a positive event for those who believe in Christ. I could be wrong and the day of the Lord could include all three time frames, but who knows?

John knew: that is why he wrote that the Day of the Lord would start at the 6th seal, then the time of Jacob's trouble would start at the 7th seal, so the ENTIRE 70th week would come with God's wrath.

The Day of the Lord then begins at the 6th seal, and includes the entire 70th week and then after that, it may include the entire 1000 year reign of Christ.

[luigi]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

John knew: that is why he wrote that the Day of the Lord would start at the 6th seal, then the time of Jacob's trouble would start at the 7th seal, so the ENTIRE 70th week would come with God's wrath.

The Day of the Lord then begins at the 6th seal, and includes the entire 70th week and then after that, it may include the entire 1000 year reign of Christ.

As I believe the chaos the four horsemen of the apocalypse represents the shaking of the earth the Lord is doing, the Day of the Lord then includes events under all seven seals. By the way iamlamad, you really should read the book of Revelation more than you do commentaries, as the opening of the seventh seal includes the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9, and with chapter nine being that in which the beast ascends from the bottomless pit; the Lord's wrath then does not commence upon the worshippers of the beast until the conclusion of the beasts 1,260 days of reign.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, luigi said:

As I believe the chaos the four horsemen of the apocalypse represents the shaking of the earth the Lord is doing, the Day of the Lord then includes events under all seven seals. By the way iamlamad, you really should read the book of Revelation more than you do commentaries, as the opening of the seventh seal includes the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9, and with chapter nine being that in which the beast ascends from the bottomless pit; the Lord's wrath then does not commence upon the worshippers of the beast until the conclusion of the beasts 1,260 days of reign.

So tell us WHY you believe the 4 horsemen represent "the shaking..."  Wouldn't it be wiser to just believe what is written - that the red horse brings war, the black horse hunger, and the pale horse pestilence?  These horses may be symbolic, but what they do is written very plainly and can certainly be taken literally. 

Why would martyrs be included in God's wrath? Is God angry at His children getting themselves killed? That would be silly. God is not angry at the martyrs. There is no wrath of God in the seals. For the first seal, God is not mad at His church. HE, God, sent out the church with the gospel. Of course that is not wrath.  Seals 2 through 4, the wars, the famines, the pestilences are the DEVIL'S work, not God's work.  Of course there is no wrath there.

Why not just believe the book as written - that wrath comes at the 6th seal and not before? It is so difficult to just take John at His word and believe what is written? 

the opening of the seventh seal includes the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9  I would not have said it that way, but I will not disagree with you. The 7th seal is the final seal, so at the 7th seal, finally, the BOOK can be opened. The first trumpet judgment comes as the book is opened and read. At the very least, the trumpet judgments are found INSIDE the book that was sealed with the seals. It is my believe that inside the book is the entire 70th week: chapters 8 to 16.  John does not come right out and say it, but he hints at it very strongly. In other words, there is much more to the book than the 7 seals sealing it.

the Lord's wrath then does not commence upon the worshippers of the beast until the conclusion of the beasts 1,260 days of reign.  Let's think about this.  Since wrath begins before the first trumpet judgment, then EVERY trumpet judgment will come with wrath.  So when God turns 1/3 of the sea into blood, and 1/3 of fresh water into blood, is this going to affect ONLY those that worship the beast?  No, it will affect 100% of those living in those areas of the world. 

Do you mean the first 1260 days or the second 1260 days? Since you include "reign," I take it you mean the second half, where the Beast is given his 42 months. But then, you said "conclusion," so you just contradicted John: the vials of God's wrath come in the second half of the week, the very time of his 42 months of authority. You have taken God's wrath out of each bowl!  Sorry, I don't buy it. I'll go strictly by what is written, even if commentaries disagree - which often some of them do.

Luigi, I really don't understand why you don't just believe Revelation as it is written.

I suggest you DO read the commentaries. At least that will give you some idea of what was believed during late church history.

Edited May 18, 2020 by iamlamad