The Shakings are beginning (written in late 2019)

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brother Behold

   You are 100%,this Gods Grace....Jesus IS the Promise of the Seed ,the Faith of Abraham that was accounted him & made him Righteous....no question when you are Born Again,thats that!

Blessings to ALL

   Now,probably my fault but we have officially derailed Gideons Topic,let us try to get back on Topic.....the only thing I wanted to insert is to be mindful of our words......Brother Beholds message is a beautiful message,it is Gods Word

BUT,we must be careful not to be so fast to assure them that may not be Saved into a false sense of security....we know little to nothing about many who come here worried about Salvation,they can not earn it so they need to Receive Gods Blessed Assurance that they are indeed-Born Again..................so let us get back to Brother Gideons Topic,shall we?

                                                                              With love-in Christ<Kwik

[Alive]

It is impossible for born again saints to be consistent in their theology until there is first a rock solid understanding of what God accomplished in the Cross, the Resurrection and Ascension and just how the shed blood of Christ works, what redemption means--in short, how all of those things are due to Grace.

Once that stuff is nailed down tightly, everything else sounds a harmonious chord in agreement with God...or it doesn't and either side of that is so easy to discern.

 

[JustPassingThru]

2 hours ago, Sonshine said:

 I also believe that the unpardonable sin can only be committed by those who have been born again.

What about Judas Iscariot, ...are you saying he was born again?

Does the Word not teach the only group of people that are "born again" are living during the "dispensation" of Grace, ...those that are born "into" the Church.

So what about all those that have lived before the dispensation of Grace, ...they are "all" saved, ...never having committed the unpardonable sin of rejecting Jesus as their Savior?

So what about the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was saved, ....but being tormented and suffering for 2, 3, 4, centuries now, ...waiting for the Rapture of the Church to be resurrected and receive his new incorruptible body, ...separated from Lazarus who was with righteous Abraham in/on the pleasurable side?  

Personally, it sounds like "reverse" Universalism to me, ...with the only "ones" being penalized are in the Church... 

[Gideon]

3 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Sister Zion

  And that always begs the same ole question,doesn't it? Was he/she ever really Saved in the first place.....it's a lot to think about,isn't it? So many truly believe that there was an altar call,they said a Sinners Prayer & are SAVED-really?Jesus Said,unless one is Born Again,they will NOT enter the Kingdom of God.....

   So,Being Born Again is by FIRE,Holy Spirit Indwells,can a vessel containing the very Spirit of God Almighty fall away? It makes me wonder,I fell away and even I'll tell you....I don't know the answer to that one....was I really Saved or Convicted and halfheartedly claiming to be a "Christian",I think that is the case(or not?lol)

   I hear so many who have backslidden(or so they think-how do you backslide from what you never were? )They fear they have become reprobate,the hardened heart that never can return to flesh(nonsense).....If they had such a hardened heart they would have no remorse.....but where they really Saved?  I think we ought to be very careful of assuring the once Convicted that they were always Saved perhaps they never were,right?

   Yes,indeed,Jesus Died Once for ALL & once Saved you ARE SAVED but SAVED is BORN AGAIN.....if there is no transformation we need to be careful of giving a false assurance,,only God Knows a mans heart....The Once Saved Always Saved message is Gods Promise,yet we must always look at the FRUITS,no fruit,something is wrong......we have to be careful of the things we say

  Don't you agree ,Sis?btw,I love what you said                               With love-in Christ<Kwik

I was having a discussion regarding this subject. This is the scripture I shared with him. 

In Hebrews 10, the author says this.

"By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 10:10 

He then continues a few verses later.

"For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy."

Hebrews 10:14

Those who espouse OSAS read these and in their minds, it is CASE CLOSED, amen?

But it would be worth our while if we continued reading. 

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Hebrews 10:26-29

I hear the argument made all the time that such a one that falls away was never saved to begin with.  But can a man be sanctified and not born again at the same time?  I think not. 

My question to those who staunchly defend the OSAS doctrine is why would God include the many warnings given in the word to make our calling and election sure? I will share but a few. There are many more if we have ears to hear. 

Why would Paul tells us he kept his body under, lest after preaching to others he himself might become a castaway?

Why would God include the scripture that IF we endure to the end, the same shall be saved?

Why are we warned clearly to not be deceived, adulterers and fornicators et al shall NOT inherit the kingdom?

What would  be the purpose of telling the Laodecian church, whom God identifies as the church, that unless they repent, He will spit them out of His mouth? 

Why would God tell us that it is he that DOETH  righteousness who is righteous, even as He is righteous?

Why would Paul tell us "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards thou goodness IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, thou also will be cut off.  

Why would God allow the Bible to declare that the branches in Him that bear not fruit will be cut off and burned? 

Why would the servant who made no gain with what he had been entrusted have God take back from him that which he had been given and instead given to another? 

Why would God tell the church of Sardis "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."? 
 

Many will argue that these scriptures never specifically mention loss of salvation, But are we really willing to gamble with our eternal souls and stubbornly cling to a doctrine that has become a sacred cow to us?  To any who has an ear to hear, the message should be loud and clear.  

Look, I understand that if the OSAS doctrine, as we currently understand it, is not true, many feel they are then cast back on them keeping themselves saved, and that smacks of legalism..... and a whole lot of fear.  

I get it, I really do. My purpose is not to strip any of security in the Lord, but rather to replace false security with the real thing. I believe the real truth is....

 Once SAFE, always saved.  

And this brings us back to the truth I have been hammering away at, LOL, for many years.

Nothing profits but the new creature.

Try as we might to walk pleasing to God, to stay on the path of righteousness focused on Jesus instead of the world around us that cries out for our attentions, we often will fail, backslide, and have our hearts hardened by sins we allow to  remain in our lives.

Yes, we can be forgiven, but let's be honest here. After fifty times committing the same sin, our "repentance" has become half-hearted at best, and acceptance of the lie we are just 'sinners saved by grace'  becomes a much easier pill to swallow, amen? 

Does we not get it?  Our old  nature has a traitor inside... a fallen being who loves sin and self pleasing, and that being.... the old us..... must die. The good news? To those desperate enough to believe it, the old us is dead already!  Why do we think we are told we must be born again? (I pray a light bulb is coming on for more than a few right now, lol)

You see, once we realize that if OSAS as we have been taught it is error, we conclude in terror that we have to keep our salvation, we have to avoid  sins of the flesh, and yes, we have to  endure to the end. Talk about lack of safety! LOL.  Why? We have come face to face with our old nature that simply cannot be trusted. Given the right temptation, anyone walking in their old nature can fall, amen? But praise God, do not give up. This state where we begin HATING our life and looking away from us to remain faithful to our God must be arroved it before we are ready for the  good stuff. And boy, is it good! 

Left to ourselves, our hearts shake. Is there no safety for us? Ahhhh, but what if God provided a way to keep us from falling, to insure that when tempted, we actually take the way of escape EVERY time? What if we have limited the power of grace to forgiveness when real true grace beings us to the point where we look to our Father to CAUSE US to not only want all of God's will for us, but also to actually  walk it and fully  obey our dear Lord.... every single time? I can hear the cries now. 'That  is impossible! It would take a miracle!' Well praise God, guess what? God has one with your name on it! 

Yes, getting to the point a man hates his own life is not pleasant. But until  a man thoroughly hates his old carnal traitorous self, He cannot do the one thing God asks of all of us.  and what is that? Believe that it is no longer he that lives and that Christ now lives in Him. Is there safety there? Woo hoo!  More than we can imagine! ?

There simply is no security for any walking in their old nature. OSAS is for our NEW man! If we are still walking in our old self loving nature, our  shield of faith is not help up to quench ALL the fiery arrows of satan. Our armor sits in our closet, nice and shiny but never battle tested. Our faith is often the exact same faith as the day we came to Christ, with no growth at all. 

But praise God, when a man finally sees he desperately needs to put on his new nature, the rest of God comes into sight. Look, the temptations never stop (trust me, lol) but God causes each one of us to take the way of escape... every time! THAT, dear brothers and sisters, is real security and it is available to any who see they have a need for it, right now, this very hour. 

Do not think you have to somehow get "spiritual enough" on order to walk on this amazing highway of holiness? Ha! Truth be told, it is those who are weak.... and KNOW IT....that will be the first to enter in. It does not take self control to walk in the new man. It takes putting on the new man to walk with self control!! Praise God! 

blessings, 

Gideon

P.S. This subject is so important to our understanding, I have also made it a stand alone thread. 

 

 

 

[*Zion*]

2 hours ago, Behold said:

Zion,

"when we were yet UNGODLY, Christ died for us..."

"to You that WORKETH NOT< but believeth on GOD who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY"....."your FAITH is COUNTED as GOD's Righteousness".  This is the "Gift of Righteousness".

So, when God saved us, we were dead in sin, and unholy.

The Blood Atonement does not make later exceptions, once it has eternally redeemed a living Soul by the process of "new birth".

We are put into the Spirit of God, by "spiritual birth", not by performance.  We the born again have become an "heir of God," and a "joint Heir of Jesus", not because we are good or bad, but because of Jesus's SACRIFICE of BLOOD and Death.

-----

Lets say you are born and you have a mother who birthed you into this world.   Now,... go and rob banks, kill children, drink blood, worship Satan, and, then kill your parents.

So....did any of that behavior stop you from ..  1. Being Born?     2. Being your mother's Son?

And why?  Its because your birth is not OF YOU.......so, what you do later with your LIFE/Behavior can't undo your BIRTH or your Status as "her son"

Likewise, your "new birth" "in Christ", is NOT of you.  And you are IN God's family, NOT because of you.

You are a SON of GOD, by = NEW BIRTH thru CHRIST......... and so, you have the rest of your life to determine if you are a good Son of God or a very pathetic Son of God, but, a SON YOU WILL REMAIN, says the Blood Atonement.

Here is a final thought for you...

When God saved you, that day you were born again....> He knew already every sin you will commit AFTER you are born again, right until the day you die.....and YET< .. God saved you anyway.    Notice that?

Zion, God saved you while KNOWING you would SIN MORE after He did........and He SAVED YOU ANYWAY.

And its the same with DEMAS and all the other Born Again.

"not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to GOD'S MERCY, = HE SAVED US"..

While I agree with Kwik that we must not stray off topic, I believe this is a very important part of it, and will affect how we shall stand upon the shaking that may be taking place at this time.  

Yes while we were still sinners Jesus died for us.  Does that mean that we should go on sinning?  Does it mean our sin no longer has consequence?  Does it mean we can break our end of covenant with Jesus and yet still expect to benefit from it?

What about those to whom He will say He did not know?  Are they covenant partakers?  Did He not die for them?  Did they not accept Him once upon a time?  Does it at all affect our security in a time of shaking, whether we are living persistently sinful lives or not?  (Note how I make the distinction between sin that is repented of, and sin that is persisted in, for ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory)  What does the bible mean when it tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

What are your take on these questions?

I only ask to understand your views better

Edited April 10, 2020 by *Zion*
Addition.

[Behold]

13 hours ago, *Zion* said:

While I agree with Kwik that we must not stray off topic, I believe this is a very important part of it, and will affect how we shall stand upon the shaking that may be taking place at this time.  

Yes while we were still sinners Jesus died for us.  Does that mean that we should go on sinning? 

Zion,

Jesus fulfilled the Law so that "Jesus has removed the curse of the Law", from all the Born Again.

What does this mean?  It means that before a person is born again, they are "under the law" and the law has the power and authority to JUDGE them as a "sinner" , before God.

But, because Jesus has "removed the curse of the Law", the Born Again are "not under the Law, but are UNDER GRACE".

Grace is now the law regarding the Born Again.

 

Let me explain further....When you were birthed, you were birthed UNDER THE LAW,......It had dominion over you, and judged you according to its Dominion.

If you are born again?......then you are now "not under the Law but are under GRACE".   = You are REBORN, NEW BIRTH...BORN...AGAIN< = under GRACE.

So, the law has no more authority to declare that a Born Again person is a SINNER.

"sinner" is a Legal term for an unbeliever who is UNDER THE LAW's Dominion.    The Born Again, are not under the Law's Dominion, but are under the Dominion of GRACE.

So, until you understand and recognize your status as "not under the Law" you will continue to behave and think of yourself as a sinner who is trying not to sin to be accepted by God.....day by day.

And this is why when you read "Demas left Paul, having loved this present world", you misunderstood it to teach you.... that.........'Demas lost his salvation, because he started sinning again".

But NO.  Demas was not under the law, so, he can't return to "sinner" status, as He can't return to being back under the law, as Demas , just like all the born again, is "not under the law but is under Grace" by NEW BIRTH.

All that Demas returned to, was a lifestyle that didnt reflect His Born Again status as a Son Of God.

He might have lived later exactly as a sinner, ....thats not revealed in the Scriptures, but no matter...He was never again a "sinner" as there was no Law being held against Him that defined him AS as sinner, as Christ had redeemed him "from the curse of the Law".

Edited April 11, 2020 by Behold

[*Zion*]

2 hours ago, Behold said:

Zion,

Jesus fulfilled the Law so that "Jesus has removed the curse of the Law", from all the Born Again.

What does this mean?  It means that before a person is born again, they are "under the law" and the law has the power and authority to JUDGE them as a "sinner" , before God.

But, because Jesus has "removed the curse of the Law", the Born Again are "not under the Law, but are UNDER GRACE".

Grace is now the law regarding the Born Again.

 

Let me explain further....When you were birthed, you were birthed UNDER THE LAW,......It had dominion over you, and judged you according to its Dominion.

If you are born again?......then you are now "not under the Law but are under GRACE".   = You are REBORN, NEW BIRTH...BORN...AGAIN< = under GRACE.

So, the law has no more authority to declare that a Born Again person is a SINNER.

"sinner" is a Legal term for an unbeliever who is UNDER THE LAW's Dominion.    The Born Again, are not under the Law's Dominion, but are under the Dominion of GRACE.

So, until you understand and recognize your status as "not under the Law" you will continue to behave and think of yourself as a sinner who is trying not to sin to be accepted by God.....day by day.

And this is why when you read "Demas left Paul, having loved this present world", you misunderstood it to teach you.... that.........'Demas lost his salvation, because he started sinning again".

But NO.  Demas was not under the law, so, he can't return to "sinner" status, as He can't return to being back under the law, as Demas , just like all the born again, is "not under the law but is under Grace" by NEW BIRTH.

All that Demas returned to, was a lifestyle that didnt reflect His Born Again status as a Son Of God.

He might have lived later exactly as a sinner, ....thats not revealed in the Scriptures, but no matter...He was never again a "sinner" as there was no Law being held against Him that defined him AS as sinner, as Christ had redeemed him "from the curse of the Law".

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with much of it, but I would appreciate it if you would actually answer the questions I posed. Thanks.

[kwikphilly]

17 hours ago, Gideon said:

Do not think you have to somehow get "spiritual enough" on order to walk on this amazing highway of holiness? Ha! Truth be told, it is those who are weak.... and KNOW IT....that will be the first to enter in. It does not take self control to walk in the new man. It takes putting on the new man to walk with self control!! Praise God! 

Blessings Brother

   I'm not minimizing ANYTHING you said here,believe me, but to sum it up "LET GO<LET GOD!!!!Amen? lol   Brother,every time you said"Amen?" I did agree,lol

Quote

Many will argue that these scriptures never specifically mention loss of salvation, But are we really willing to gamble with our eternal souls and stubbornly cling to a doctrine that has become a sacred cow to us?  To any who has an ear to hear, the message should be loud and clear.  

Look, I understand that if the OSAS doctrine, as we currently understand it, is not true, many feel they are then cast back on them keeping themselves saved, and that smacks of legalism..... and a whole lot of fear.  

I get it, I really do. My purpose is not to strip any of security in the Lord, but rather to replace false security with the real thing. I believe the real truth is....                        Gideon

I've been saying this for years Brother & really do not know if I can really understand a OSAS doctrine because I truly do not know if the person or persons we are talking about are/were really Saved to begin with but I'll say this.....better be sure & waste no time.....No,I was never willing to risk my Eternal Life by simply saying"Ah,all is well & I can do whatever I please" because here is the thing-if ones real desire is to please themselves then something is really wrong....the NEW MAN,has a new heart & a new mind,the Heart & Mind of Christ,where is the "I" or the "me" in an Authentic New Creature?

Quote

. OSAS is for our NEW man!                                Gideon

You bet! Amen!

   Sanctification is a process,Holy Spirit is that agent WHO does a continuing work in us because we are indeed,Indwelled by Holy Spirit....."spiritual enough",my goodness no but by dying to oneself the spirit (our spirit)grows...the same Way Holy Spirit Has Made the Conviction & the Conversion He Continues to Lead,Guide & Council the Believer through & by the Word  ,TRUTH

   I too just worry about giving anyone a false sense of security(as I said earlier)...Do I agree with Brother Behold,yes I do.....do I agree with OSAS,I think I do not like the phrase,lol    I do not know who is Saved & who is not but if someone is claiming to be a Born Again Believer then they had better be sure they are & I could not tell them that its fine that they slept with every person in town for the past 10 year because OSAS....No,I have to question if they were ever truly Born Again,the New Man could not possibly continue in that lifestyle,now could he?

   And what about the lazy man,He is Born Again & never reads the Word so he does not feed the Spirit & there is no continuing work because he has hindered his own continuing growth or process...Brother Behold will probably say,He is Saved by Grace,all is well............is he,was he? Why did he not hunger & thirst for God?the Word? Relationship? Something is wrong somewhere & I am not willing to risk anyones life on that....Amen?

                                                                                                        With love-in Christ,Kwik

 This is why we are taught to work out our own Salvation.....we cannot know anyone elses heart but we can examine our own as they must do & we should encourage others to do as well   My cousin has come to the Lord(HALLELUYAH)   Only yesterday I said to her,better reign it in my dear & read the Word! (self control,anger,bitterness)because I'm not seeing those Good Fruits,she is trying by her own effort to break the chains of bondage.....So,do I think she is Saved, I couldn't know that & that is something she must know and that is what I tell her......I believe she is but I will not tell her "All is well",I simply tell her what Gods Word Says"To the Born Again"...His Blood Covers ALL,Grace ALONE    RELATIONSHIP

[Alive]

18 hours ago, Gideon said:

 

Look, I understand that if the OSAS doctrine, as we currently understand it, is not true, many feel they are then cast back on them keeping themselves saved, and that smacks of legalism..... and a whole lot of fear.  

I get it, I really do. My purpose is not to strip any of security in the Lord, but rather to replace false security with the real thing. I believe the real truth is....

 

And yet this is exactly what you are doing. All of your carefully packaged ramblings are nothing but clever twists. Twists that say the work of Christ on the Cross and His rising and ascension are not enough. You create a doctrine that says you must 'do' more. This is old stuff and I have seen it before and it 'never' ends well for the poor folks that listen. It ends in a group of individuals who come to believe they are more special than all other saints of God. But because your doctrine appeals to the 'flesh', it wears them out and they become even more confused. Sometimes some find their way back to the 'True' safety.

The man that gathers some poor saints together and goes on teaching like you are doing, will end in elevating himself and will make a cult of personality--and that one will fail and in the process those that follow him will become more confused. This is what happens every time.

Because this appeals to the fleshly efforts and folks cannot succeed to reach this lofty goal that you hang in front of them, you will end up making rules (fences) to keep them penned into your 'vision'--from there it continues to devolve into pure legalism. Every, single time.

This is how the enemy works.

[Gideon]

17 minutes ago, Alive said:

And yet this is exactly what you are doing. All of your carefully packaged ramblings are nothing but clever twists. Twists that say the work of Christ on the Cross and His rising and ascension are not enough. You create a doctrine that says you must 'do' more. This is old stuff and I have seen it before and it 'never' ends well for the poor folks that listen. It ends in a group of individuals who come to believe they are more special than all other saints of God. But because your doctrine appeals to the 'flesh', it wears them out and they become even more confused. Sometimes some find their way back to the 'True' safety.

The man that gathers some poor saints together and goes on teaching like you are doing, will end in elevating himself and will make a cult of personality--and that one will fail and in the process those that follow him will become more confused. This is what happens every time.

Because this appeals to the fleshly efforts and folks cannot succeed to reach this lofty goal that you hang in front of them, you will end up making rules (fences) to keep them penned into your 'vision'--from there it continues to devolve into pure legalism. Every, single time.

This is how the enemy works.

I have shared before, many will initially resist the truth and see no need for change. But the coming  shakings will be unrelenting, and all who love the Lord WILL eventually hear His voice and run to put on their new natures  believing that their God not only forgives us, but also has made a way of full victory for us, and that He will plant our feet on the very neck of the devil.  Up til now, He has kept us remaining in our prison cells, even though the Lord has ripped the door off the hinges.  Thank God, those days are ending and His bride will discover the How of holiness and prepare herself through the Spirit dwelling within and ready hersepf for the upcoming wedding. 

Look, dear brother. i get it. There will most definitely be resistance to the message of complete victory God offers us  in the new man.  It comes with the territory. All I can do is respond in love, re-state the truth of who we are, and pray that His precious saihts have ears will hear what the Lord is speaking to us. To all who long to walk free from the flesh so that they  can bring honor to the one we love. God will NOT disappoint.

Be blessed, dead Alive.

Gids