The Two Phases of Christ's Return

[not an echo]

On 4/15/2020 at 1:38 AM, Marilyn C said:

Yes, Michael, great.

not an echo, you are only writing what the Lord said to Israel concerning His coming to THEM. You/we need to read what the Lord, the Head of the Body says to His believers through the apostle Paul. Why? Because it was to the apostle Paul that the Lord gave the revelation of His Body. And that revelation was NOT known in previous times, otherwise the enemy, Satan would have not crucified the Lord of Glory. (1 Cor: 2: 6 - 8)

Hope that gives you more understanding.

Hello Marilyn C (and all),

According to the account, Jesus was not talking to Israel, but to His disciples, the pillars of His Church---the very week He was to be crucified (Matt. 24:3-4).  Now, He did speak to them some things that concerned Israel, but every thing we have a record of Him saying from this time until His arrest was to His disciples (except for a few words to Judas).  Again, He was speaking to the pillars of His Church.  Of His Church, He had done served notice in Satan's hearing thus:  "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).  And they haven't. 

Moreover, Paul's writings concerning the rapture dovetail with the passage of my focus in my opening post (Matt. 24:29-31).  Ironically, everything Jesus said from verse 29 to the end of the chapter pertains to the day of the rapture, which happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Of course, it is quite normal for us to think of the day of the rapture concerning the Church, but it also concerns the Israelites, because not long after the Church is gone, Daniel's 70th Week will begin (Matt. 24:15, II Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1ff).  During this time there "shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

Quickly, the Olivet Discourse can rightly be divided into three sections.  I will use Matthew's account for an example.  This division is also consistent with the accounts of Mark and Luke.

Section #1 (24:4-14)---Concerns the Church era.  Especially supported by The Revelation (the key) and the testimony of post-apostolic world history (every century).

Section #2 (24:15-28)---Concerns last day's Israelites.  Especially supported by The Revelation (the key) and the book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

Section #3 (24:29-51)---Concerns the rapture (which separates the Church from the time of Jacob's trouble).  (Especially supported by The Revelation (the key) and Paul's writings.

Marilyn, to those who are familiar with the various views, we know that what I am seeing is not in tune with the common pre-trib view.  However, because I am pre-trib, some may reject what I am seeing merely because of this.  Also, because you don't yet know my position on other areas of concern, you may not be able to agree, and I understand.  But, I hope you (and everyone) will at least begin to prayerfully take another look.

Edited April 19, 2020 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/15/2020 at 8:30 PM, Uriah said:

  On 4/14/2020 at 11:56 PM, not an echo said:

That there will be two phases to Christ's return is a basic belief of the common pre-trib rapture view.  While I do not subscribe to the common view, Scripture does support that Christ's return will be in two phases. 

Quote

The first phase will be His sudden and unexpected return as a "thief" for the rapture of His Church and the resurrection. 

  Rev 16:15,16- “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Now you can see that He is about to come as a thief and it is time for Armageddon!

Hello Uriah, 

Consider:  Your child is a preteen, living in the States on the base, and you are a five-star general.  You are serving in a far distant land.  You have always reassured your child that if it looked like an invasion of the States was about to happen, you would return for him prior to this---to not be overly concerned about any rumors.  Not knowing how long it will be before you return, you would quite naturally want to prepare him for some of the things that would lie ahead for him in his future.  You might tell him that life is full of both sunny and rainy days, but that it takes such for the flowers to grow.  You might tell him that he will encounter lots of different kinds of people in his life, some who will make good friends and some who will not, so to be careful.  You might tell him that he will be faced will having to say "Yes" or "No" to all kinds of temptations and that however it may seem at the time, things will always turn out better if he says "No."  And, because he is a preteen, you might explain to him some things about puberty and love and so forth.  But, with all of this information, he would have nothing upon which to base the time of your return.  However, when the things began to come to pass that you had spoken of, it would be reinforced for him that Dad sure knew what he was talking about!  Well, later you receive intelligence that an invasion of the States is brewing.  You send letters to keep your son informed, always with the reassurance that you will return for him before such an invasion takes place.  The way everything is shaping up, this invasion will be climaxed by the battle of all battles.  You write your son a final letter, letting him know how everything is shaping up.  Just before you tell him about this battle of all battles, you say, "Now son, be ready and packed, cause when I come to get you, I'm gonna be making quick work of it.  Just like a thief when he's making off with the valuables!"

I can almost envision your son showing his friends about this that is fixing to happen.  I can see them, looking at that part about you telling him to be ready and packed because of how you are gonna be whisking him away.  And, I can see them saying, "So, he's gonna wait till the day of the battle to come to get you?"  Hopefully, your son would be able to say something like this:  "NO, NO, he's gonna come get me before the invasion!  Here, just look at the other letters he's sent me!"

On 4/15/2020 at 8:30 PM, Uriah said:

Hello,

Your description above of 2 phases is the language of the pre trib teaching. That is completely debunked by scripture.

About how far apart are you saying the so called phases are?

I'm calling them phases mostly because of the way they have been termed for so long.  From a first century perspective, this would not seem to be so unfitting, especially with 2000 years having passed.

According to Scripture, I see Christ's two returns (if this is preferable) happening a bit over seven years apart.  His first return is after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16/Matt. 24:30).  Between this return, and His Second Advent (Rev. 19:11-16), there are at least the two 3-1/2 years periods of Daniel's 70th Week repeatedly mentioned (Rev. 11:2-3; 12:6, 14; and 13:5) and the five month time frame of the fifth trumpet(Rev. 9:5, 10).  

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Very funny uriah, how can He comes as as thief if the Kings n armies of the world can prepare to battle Him at armageddon. ???????????

Because the thief in the night idea is one of suddenness, a surprise, not secrecy. 

Every pretribber misses this and refuses to deal with because it destroys the 'secret coming doctrine':

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

The 'thief in the night' scenario only applies to those in darkness, not to us who are watching.

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

This means we will see the signs and know He is near.

What Uriah is pointing out 'when' Jesus is returning. When He does come like a thief upon the unbelieving world it will be the time of the final battle. This is at the end not 7 years prior.

[R. Hartono]

19 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Because the thief in the night idea is one of suddenness, a surprise, not secrecy. 

 

Sorry Diaste, the rapture did not happen at Armageddon battle either because those army coming with Jesus to Armageddon battle are the raptured saints taken to heaven as Great Multitude 7 years earlier.

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Uriah, 

Consider:  Your child is a preteen, living in the States on the base, and you are a five-star general.  You are serving in a far distant land.  You have always reassured your child that if it looked like an invasion of the States was about to happen, you would return for him prior to this---to not be overly concerned about any rumors.  Not knowing how long it will be before you return, you would quite naturally want to prepare him for some of the things that would lie ahead for him in his future.  You might tell him that life is full of both sunny and rainy days, but that it takes such for the flowers to grow.  You might tell him that he will encounter lots of different kinds of people in his life, some who will make good friends and some who will not, so to be careful.  You might tell him that he will be faced will having to say "Yes" or "No" to all kinds of temptations and that however it may seem at the time, things will always turn out better if he says "No."  And, because he is a preteen, you might explain to him some things about puberty and love and so forth.  But, with all of this information, he would have nothing upon which to base the time of your return.  However, when the things began to come to pass that you had spoken of, it would be reinforced for him that Dad sure knew what he was talking about!  Well, later you receive intelligence that an invasion of the States is brewing.  You send letters to keep your son informed, always with the reassurance that you will return for him before such an invasion takes place.  The way everything is shaping up, this invasion will be climaxed by the battle of all battles.  You write your son a final letter, letting him know how everything is shaping up.  Just before you tell him about this battle of all battles, you say, "Now son, be ready and packed, cause when I come to get you, I'm gonna be making quick work of it.  Just like a thief when he's making off with the valuables!"

I can almost envision your son showing his friends about this that is fixing to happen.  I can see them, looking at that part about you telling him to be ready and packed because of how you are gonna be whisking him away.  And, I can see them saying, "So, he's gonna wait till the day of the battle to come to get you?"  Hopefully, your son would be able to say something like this:  "NO, NO, he's gonna come get me before the invasion!  Here, just look at the other letters he's sent me!"

I'm calling them phases mostly because of the way they have been termed for so long.  From a first century perspective, this would not seem to be so unfitting, especially with 2000 years having passed.

According to Scripture, I see Christ's two returns (if this is preferable) happening a bit over seven years apart.  His first return is after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16/Matt. 24:30).  Between this return, and His Second Coming (Rev. 19:11-16), there are at least the two 3-1/2 years periods of Daniel's 70th Week repeatedly mentioned (Rev. 11:2-3; 12:6, 14; and 13:5) and the five month time frame of the fifth trumpet(Rev. 9:5, 10).  

Hello not an echo,

You have produced a fine example of man's reasoning, but let's look at scripture: (often repeated) The only two examples Jesus used from the O.T. were Noah and Lot.

 

Matt 24:37-39- “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:28-  Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

Rev 15:8- The Temple was filled with smoke from God’s glory and power. No one could enter the Temple until the seven angels had completed pouring out the seven plagues.

Rev 19:1,7&8- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:.......Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

In each case with Noah and Lot, God's people remained UNTIL THE DAY that the judgment of God came down from above.

In Rev 19 the chapter starts with people in the sky shouting for joy.THAT IS THE RAPTURE!  THEN it says it is time for the wedding, NOT 7 or 3.5 yrs. earlier. NOW she is given the white clothing to wear. 

In summary,  the reasoning we come up with to avoid scriptural truth fails. 

[Uriah]

15 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Very funny uriah, how can He comes as as thief if the Kings n armies of the world can prepare to battle Him at armageddon. ???????????

See the scriptures I posted above regarding the words of Jesus in Revelation 16 saying in essence He has NOT come like a thief at that point. (not very funny) 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Sorry Diaste, the rapture did not happen at Armageddon battle either because those army coming with Jesus to Armageddon battle are the raptured saints taken to heaven as Great Multitude 7 years earlier.

Actually every reference to the armies that accompany the King at His return are 'holy ones'; that could mean angels. It's not definite this army is made up of translated believers from any age or time.

I personally am convinced its and army of holy ones and not raptured followers of Jesus. 

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Actually every reference to the armies that accompany the King at His return are 'holy ones'; that could mean angels. It's not definite this army is made up of translated believers from any age or time.

I personally am convinced its and army of holy ones and not raptured followers of Jesus. 

No Angels found riding a horse unless its the Rodeo Angels ???????

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Actually every reference to the armies that accompany the King at His return are 'holy ones'; that could mean angels. It's not definite this army is made up of translated believers from any age or time.

I personally am convinced its and army of holy ones and not raptured followers of Jesus. 

Hi Diaste,

I am convinced of the same thing. In Matt 24 Jesus says that it is His holy angels that come with Him. All through the scriptures God is the Lord of hosts...armies...of heaven. And yes, angels wear white, and fine linen. We "shall be like unto the angels." 

Daniel 4:13- I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;-----this was an angel, they are also called saints, interchangeably---"Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake..." Dan. 12:6- And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river... 

Rev 15:6-  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen...Rev 19:14- The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses

Acts 1:10-And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel

The angels are even called "the elect" as we are...1 Tim 5:21- I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels,... ("elect"- ek-lek-tos'; from G1586; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.....

Rev 17:4- These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.....a "select" group (of angels in this case)

And, no, He doesn't need His wife to fight for Him. She is the one for whom He brings His armies to rescue!

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn C (and all),

According to the account, Jesus was not talking to Israel, but to His disciples, the pillars of His Church---

Hi not an echo,

The 12 disciples are NOT in the Body of Christ!