Tearing Down Strongholds is not easy but they will come down....

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

@dhchristian  It may appear--and some assumptions are made--that some folks resisting the 'works' doctrine don't have a full understanding of moving along in growth and maturity 'In Christ'. The focus is not on the deeper walk with the Lord during these conversations--this warfare, because that is not the point being addressed.

So when someone on the forum is teaching that you can lose your salvation, whether overtly or with subtlety--it is that that is being resisted. When a maturing walk with the Lord is included by the individual also teaching salvation loss and/or works, it is confusing for young in the Lord folks, so a sharp sword is required to cut through the mess. This does not mean that such a one lacks understanding of the 'maturing' in the Lord.

When one teaches that one can lose their salvation--no matter how it is phrased or couched or wrapped in pleasant things--the result is always the same thing.

It means that they are teaching that 'works' saves or keeps saved. It is just that simple. And that is not the 'Truth'. So when that lie rears its head, some folks want to lop it off. It needs to be lopped off for the sake of those reading. To some folks, this appears single dimensional. To some folks this seems mean or even rude. It cuts--just as a the 'Sword' is meant to.

There is a time for teaching about sanctification as a continual daily process, but what MUST come first is a solid foundation of:

⁸ For ^zby grace you have been saved ^athrough faith. And this is ^bnot your own doing; ^cit is the gift of God, ^{9 d}not a result of works, ^eso that no one may boast.

And so on.

 

Outstanding post! I am like you....I don’t come here looking for trouble, but like you , I do not miss the constant, continuing , subtle little “digs” about Grace.......slipped in almost routinely and without question by some  Posters......it is taken for granted that those of us that also hate sin ,yet realize that Grace always trumps sin and that we are Saved by what we Believe, as opposed to how we behave , are  ALL are out Sinning up a storm because their is no incentive NOT to! After all- we can sin and “ get away with it”. Right? God would be VERY mistaken if He set up a System whereby ALL the Sins Of Mankind were forgiven, and because ALL of the sins of everybody were put on His Son, He could be freed up  to extend His Grace to All that simply come to Him and REST in His Gospel. Does God “ really” think he could set the World free from having to worry about “ Going to Hell” every time they slipped up or failed to repent when they bumped their heads and a dirty word slipped out? Certainly God would never even “ consider” actually going so far as to “ Forget” the Sins Of His Children? Would he? Could it actually be possible that the Gratitude, the relief brought about by the removal of Having to use will-Power and the fear of Hell to keep one Saved in an Old System That both Peter and Paul deemed an impossible system to keep—- could That Love for is be an incentive for a life that pleases God? Nah, no way.....

Here’s the deal......ALL the sins of the World were put on the Lamb Of God.....even Hitler’s.....( poor Hitler..his name seems to come so often in theses discussions ) All that Hitler had to  do is “ cash in”by Believing it......that is all that we have to do.

When the Christian Sins, God puts it on the Cross and leaves it there.Paid in Full if you Rest in His Gospel. If all  our sins are paid for , it follows that we are free to do whatever we  want.We are. Notice that I did NOT say we could do what we want and get away with it. God  will always Chastise stupid and foolish Children.....just like any  responsible parent would.God knows that humans will ALWAYS do what they Want.I do what I want every second of every  day! Contrary to what would tend to think, my daily sin total has plummeted .How is that possible?The second I Believed and Put my TOTAL Faith in Jesus Plus Nothing To Save me, God Put His Holy Spirit in me and changed my “ wants”. My new Obedience to God lies in the Truth that this Obedience is spurred by my New Nature That obeys out of Love , Knowing I am free to do what I want , yet my wants now line up with God’s.When I sin , I do the same thing with it that God does —- I put it on the Cross and leave it there......Grace has it  covered as far as my Salvation is concerned......I feel Sorrow and regret for my sins, but In the end, I thank God  for His Grace and move on- realizing that God  May decide to Chastise me.So relax everybody , I am not “ sinning and getting away with it”......Getting you “ wants changed” can be painful at times.....that will relieve many people.....This was going to be short post.....sorry......sometimes I get carried away.......God Bless...

 

 

[Behold]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

My conversation, and my ministry is not to the New born babes in Christ, But to the so called teachers who have reached a place of complacency here and elsewhere.

So your ministry ONLINE,  is to instruct people on Forums and tell them that they are personally complacent?

Yet you have never met any of us, you have no idea what we do in life.....yet you can tell we are complacent?

"well brother no.... what i mean is, i can read that you teach Paul down to the letter, and preach the same theology, and so, that means you're complacent"

"well no sister, what i mean is, because you dont agree with the  Calvinism that i teach, this mean you are complacent".

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Behold

[Blood Bought 1953]

45 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

 

@dhchristian  It may appear--and some assumptions are made--that some folks resisting the 'works' doctrine don't have a full understanding of moving along in growth and maturity 'In Christ'. The focus is not on the deeper walk with the Lord during these conversations--this warfare, because that is not the point being addressed.

So when someone on the forum is teaching that you can lose your salvation, whether overtly or with subtlety--it is that that is being resisted. When a maturing walk with the Lord is included by the individual also teaching salvation loss and/or works, it is confusing for young in the Lord folks, so a sharp sword is required to cut through the mess. This does not mean that such a one lacks understanding of the 'maturing' in the Lord.

When one teaches that one can lose their salvation--no matter how it is phrased or couched or wrapped in pleasant things--the result is always the same thing.

It means that they are teaching that 'works' saves or keeps saved. It is just that simple. And that is not the 'Truth'. So when that lie rears its head, some folks want to lop it off. It needs to be lopped off for the sake of those reading. To some folks, this appears single dimensional. To some folks this seems mean or even rude. It cuts--just as a the 'Sword' is meant to.

There is a time for teaching about sanctification as a continual daily process, but what MUST come first is a solid foundation of:

⁸ For ^zby grace you have been saved ^athrough faith. And this is ^bnot your own doing; ^cit is the gift of God, ^{9 d}not a result of works, ^eso that no one may boast.

 

45 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

My conversation, and my ministry is not to the New born babes in Christ, But to the so called teachers who have reached a place of complacency here and elsewhere. My being sent involved in the query; "Can the teacher still be taught?" Or are they beyond learning. I am not addressing the immature, here in Christ, But the so called mature who are promoting complacency, rather than growth into maturity. Both can be taught to new Born Christians and yes they will likely fall into works as so many of us do, But do you believe the Lord will Keep them? This is a battle all believers face, Both young and old, and it will be accelerated in these end times. The More they hear the elders of the church discussing this, the more they will be armed with the Truth when it comes time to face the onslaught of the real enemy. 

I Am glad that you see the need for growth and maturity in Christ Jesus, I appreciate that. But we all have need of this message, old and young in Christ Jesus. You cannot just stop at justification by grace, but you must water that seed with Sanctification by grace and the Work of the Holy Spirit in us, and not by the will and strength of the individual which leads to works and vainglory and Hubris. This cannot begin to happen until they realize their need for Growth.

The Truth is that complacency loves company, and there are some here who would rather quench the Spirit than to see growth that those who are being set ablaze by the Move of the Holy Ghost in their lives will join them in their complacency. Gideon is expressing what is unknowable by Human wisdom, He is using human terms for lack of a Spiritual language to express them. Losing salvation is not what he is preaching Growing in faith is what he is preaching. The Question to you and all others who would be complacent where they are at is what happens to the Lukewarm of the church? Are they awakened by the move of the Holy Ghost, Or are they the ones that fall away from the Truth? For this is what is at stake here (read 2 thess. 2) We are the terminal generation  Some will go onto glory, while others will fall for the strong delusion, (Those who do,do not Love the Truth) What you do with these words of warning is between you and the LORD, All glory is his, as He grants the growth.

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 thess. 2;12)

Even What I write here sounds like you can lose salvation, But the truth is it is based on full belief in the Author and finisher of our faith, that he will accomplish what he set out to accomplish irregardless of our obstinance and refusal to acknowledge the message sent, and the attempts of those here to kill the messenger. In The coming dispensation, it is my strong belief that there will be only the saints as the church as we know it will be no more, the majority of which have fallen away into churchianity and not relationship, complacency and not vibrancy of the Spirit (The Law of the Spirit of Life). For they love not the truth. 

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:8-9)

I think you are confusing “Resting in the Gospel” — which we are Commanded to do! — with “ complacency”.....

You stress “ Growth”......that is great. If one has not “ grown” into the knowledge of “ Resting in the Finished Work Of The Cross” and if they do not “ grow” to the point that they Rest In Paul’s Gospel Of Grace— no True growing will ever take place......Nothing stunts growth like being disobedient and like being in a state of Unbelief— two accusations from God if you do not Rest in His Gospel Of Pure Grace......We must Put first things first, lest we build on sand.....

You seem to be inspired by the postings of Gideon.He seems like a great guy.If I were ever to meet him personally I am sure we would get along fine. So let me make sure that as I  criticize His DOCTRINE, It is never meant to be taken personally . He is my Brother,  But I sincerely believe that he is a Brother full of zeal , but without knowledge . He thinks that if one commits a sin and fails to repent of that sin before he dies, he is as Hell-Bound as Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin. As I understand Paul’s writings in Galatians, that is a clear addition to the Gospel and puts all of those that adhere to such thinking under the threat of being a candidate for “ Falling From Grace”—- or much , much worse.Failure to Rest In the Gospel as Paul revealed it, the Good News Of what God did for “us” as opposed to what “ we” do for God....that erroneous thinking is bad enough.One is “ severed from the Cross Of Jesus” and , as said, is “ Fallen From Grace”. Gifted Bible teachers disagree whether these things refer to Damnation or not.One Thing is NOT in dispute — if one TEACHES what Paul called “ a Perverted Gospel” they are “ Accursed”, a polite way to say that they are damned by God. I see no other way to interpret the teachings of Paul.....God forbids ANYBOdY from trifling with His Gospel Of Grace. I see dangers for people who ignore what Paul clearly taught in his writings.....most Newbies aren’t getting this from their Churches—- I know that I never did— Newbies deserve to hear  it......Confused and ignorant Preachers need to start preaching it......Many are “Accursed” and don't even know it.Many, Many Church Goers are Fallen From Grace and Don’t know it.The World and most of the Church thinks falling from Grace is getting caught in some big sin..... a la Jimmy Swaggert. Nope —- it is any addition to this for one’s Salvation: Jesus Saves....BUT!......I know I sound like a broken record, but it’s nevertheless True.....NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD for Salvation....God Bless..

 

 

[TheBlade]

Tearing Down Strongholds "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

Just confused what were talking about here. I think the view on the early Church ... well panted beautiful just not quite true As with today.. I'd say maybe to much black in the panting ? Hey Gid! And within this panting... is what seems to be in all of them praise God Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

LOVE to paint..draw. Bought a tablet to do just that lol. Anyway..

To tear down a stronghold... man is not the problem. Thats not where this battle is. Yet some strongholds are with in us. The thoughts things like this to be put under Christ.. as if He is the filter. So confused because..is it now about salvation? I think some expect us all to be running at the same pace. Never going happen. To love one another.. we become all things. Its you just walked one mile.. you walk another never saying a word. Becoming all things to what is needed. But some times even here self is getting puffed up not Christ. So I wonder when reading.. whos truth am I reading about? Something the Holy Spirit relieved to you? Well just seems some are trying to force feed others. Something even GOD does not do. ...sorry oh this song (You are here...East Somerset worship. Never heard it before). 

My wife one day said she had a dream where I was like holding her hand pulling her up the hill lol. When it comes to the lord its something she thinks is true for she believe she needs that. Just not how God moves. You know there is a truth with in Grace. I mean some TOUCH this word but.. will not focus on it.  By grace we are saved. Grace means unmerited favor. So from the start we have nothing that brings us to Him. Get over it. I still am trying lol. By grace you are saved. Yet is it not "have been saved"? Through faith and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. Again something  points not to us/self. Its faith. I think we look at others and how they live, talk, breath and.. duh we know they are not saved. Yet what we see and judge a person on God never is.

So.. no clue how this is dealing with strongholds. Always kind of lost in these kind of threads..wondering who are we talking to here? A old song comes to mind. Christian where they were all told to bow their heads. The two guys didn't and you hear the pastor saying "Yes I see that hand.. I see those hands" and the two kids say to each other.. "what hands? I don't see anyones hands up" a funny song.

song "Holy Water.. I don't want to abuse your grace.. God I needed it every day.. its the only thing that ever really makes me wanna change." Do you know how TRUE this is? Just hearing this song now.. again what timing.. perfect. Its this grace I am shown.. don't know about you but.. fall down at His feet.. crying worshiping Him. Not feeling guilty but KNOWING what He did and does not see any more. I SO want to live more holy more righteous. Righteous to which I already am in my Fathers eyes. So.. I so want to show this share it with all. To whom the Son set frees is free indeed. 

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, Behold said:

So your ministry ONLINE,  is to instruct people on Forums and tell them that they are personally complacent?

Yet you have never met any of us, you have no idea what we do in life.....yet you can tell we are complacent?

"well brother no.... what i mean is, i can read that you teach Paul down to the letter, and preach the same theology, and so, that means you're complacent"

"well no sister, what i mean is, because you dont agree with the  Calvinism that i teach, this mean you are complacent".

The Fruit of your doctrine is complacency and not Growth to the fulness of Christ Jesus. It is quite easy to see Online. Just simple observation. 

[Sower]

20 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

The Fruit of your doctrine is complacency and not Growth to the fulness of Christ Jesus. It is quite easy to see Online. Just simple observation. 

And if you're wrong?

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

I think you are confusing “Resting in the Gospel” — which we are Commanded to do! — with “ complacency”.....

And I think what your doing is making resting in the Gospel a work that is needed for salvation that we must do in order to be saved. Think about that..... Your hypothetical person that is 99% resting in the gospel is disqualified for not resting 1% of the time. Your understanding of the doctrine of rest has become flawed and has become just another work like Sabbath keeping. 

In Other words, You have made the doctrine of Grace an excuse not to grow in Grace, which is what complacency is, A Place where we stop growing and learning and repenting and learning some more, Till we reach the fulness of Christ. Basically you think you have arrived at the Truth, when you have just started the race. I am Encouraging  you to Mount up on wings of eagles and run and not grow weary (Isa 40:31) The Journey begins with Resting in the Gospel of Grace, As it is no longer we who lives, But Christ who lives in us.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:17-18) 

  

[dhchristian]

29 minutes ago, Sower said:

And if you're wrong?

And If You are wrong, then what? 

I Think You are capable of a more intelligent response than that, so I answered in Kind. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

10 hours ago, AustinIfeanyi said:

Yes, we were saved by grace, not by our own work, it's the free gift of God to man BUT Now that we are saved, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID! Says the bible.. After Our spirit gets the new life, the next thing is the renewal of the soul (Mind, will) to come into conformity with the Holy Christ Jesus. That's the balanced doctrine. My little inpute. 

The latest variation of “ Jesus Saves—- BUT!” Sorry, Jesus does  save—- no “ Buts” attached.....No matter how good it sounds.....once saved, Sin should not abound, but sometimes it does......don’t underestimate God! He can handle a Saved Fool.....read all about it .....Remember the Saved man from Paul’s  Church who liked to sleep with his Mother? Perhaps she was his Step-Mother.No matter.Paul pointed out that it was something that not even the Heathen did! God took care of that man who thought he could abuse Grace and get away with it.His Salvation was never in question.Abusing Grace did not work then and it will not work now.Wanna give it a whirl, foolish man? I dare you.

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Remember the Saved man from Paul’s  Church who liked to sleep with his Mother? Perhaps she was his Step-Mother.No matter.Paul pointed out that it was something that not even the Heathen did! God took care of that man who thought he could abuse Grace and get away with it.His Salvation was never in question.

Hi BB, You reference an interesting passage which prompts me to ask your thoughts about the sins that beset the saved, their causes, effects, consequences and penalties. I need to log off for the night otherwise I would start a new thread on this subject, but I look forward to your response and further related discussion.

Yours in Christ, Michael37.