I was wrong

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Episcopius said:

There is no biblical precept for saying God decrees a certain length of time for a certain purpose but one can say "Kings X" - prophetic clock stopped! All of Dispensational pretrib stands or fall s on this GAP - . and to me it falls

Also, given the fact that the Messiah was cut off after the 69th week (7 + 62), His death had to occur during the 70th week if it is to have taken place during the time constraints given for the prophecy.  The death of the Messiah is central to the fulfillment of the Daniel 9 prophecy and to say that it occurred outside of the prophecy's given time frame in some GAP doesn't make any sense to me.  Why give a time frame for things to happen and then have some of them happen outside that time frame?  That would be pointless.

[WilliamL]

On 6/8/2020 at 7:25 AM, ENOCH2010 said:

What event needs to happen for the pre-tribbers to say, wow I was wrong, there will be no pre-trib rapture. 

Some will get it when they see Daniel 11:40 fulfilled.

Some will get it when they see the Abomination of Desolation fulfilled.

Some will never get it until they see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven, after the above two events.

[douggg]

On 6/8/2020 at 8:25 AM, ENOCH2010 said:

What event needs to happen for the pre-tribbers to say, wow I was wrong, there will be no pre-trib rapture. 

No event, the way you phrased your hypothetical.... of "there will be no pre-trib rapture.

 

If instead you packaged your hypothetical .... there was no pre-trib rapture.     It will be after the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years takes place.

 

Gog/Magog to take place and afterward the 70th week begin as the little horn coming from the EU, as the prince who come, is perceived by the Jews as the messiah, and is anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet.      He confirms the covenant for 7 years, by making a big speech from the temple mount.

 

Until then a pre-trib rapture is still possible.

Edited June 14, 2020 by douggg

[Diaste]

On 6/8/2020 at 7:25 AM, ENOCH2010 said:

What event needs to happen for the pre-tribbers to say, wow I was wrong, there will be no pre-trib rapture. 

Humbling their heart and mind to listen to the Spirit.

[Diaste]

On 6/10/2020 at 7:20 AM, ChickenCoop said:

Once people stop mixing together prophesies about the rapture and prophesies about the second coming, things will be clearer. 

Perhaps @watchman might care to drop in and show you that they are two different events.  Rapture is first and can happen at any moment.  The second coming comes after the rapture. 

 

The Second Coming and the rapture are linked in the same time/space moment. First Jesus returns, then the gathering, and only then does wrath fall.

[Diaste]

On 6/8/2020 at 9:31 PM, ChickenCoop said:

The rapture can happen at any moment. 

 

...after other events occur first.

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2020 at 3:24 AM, wingnut- said:

 

Yes, but Joel and all the other prophets were speaking in terms of their time, and the names they list can be traced to specific places geographically.  Meshech and Tubal were located in modern day Turkey, which biblically speaking is the area known as Asia Minor, which of course has great significance in prophecy.  To further illustrate why we should approach the geography not from our modern day perspective, but from the prophets perspective take the following passage from Ezekiel 38 as an example.

 

Ezekiel 38: 6 Gomer and all his hordes; Beth-togarmah from the uttermost parts of the north with all his hordes—many peoples are with you.

 

Now, we see here that Ezekiel refers to Gomer and beth-togarmah as the uttermost parts of the north.  So first, we have to understand the geography from the bible, so look at the table of nations from Genesis and I will highlight some very important aspects.

 

Genesis 10  These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Sons were born to them after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations.

 

From Genesis 10 we can gather that all of these individuals in question here descend from the line of Japheth.  Magog is also a descendant of Japheth, as you can see in verse 2.  Togarmah is the youngest son of Gomer.  Verse 5 tells us that they are coastland peoples, which is very important when you account for all of Ezekiel's prophecies in regards to them, not just chapter 38.

The name beth-togarmah needs to be clarified, in that the prefix of beth means house, so the proper understanding is literally, the house of togarmah, clearly identifying the descendants of Gomer's youngest son, Togarmah as the people in question from Ezekiel that he refers to as "the uttermost parts of the north".  This is the modern day region in which beth-togarmah existed.

 

Anatolia

Togarmah is among the descendants of Japheth and is thought to represent some people located in Anatolia. Medieval traditions variously claimed Togarmah as the mythical ancestor of peoples in the Caucasus and western Asia, including the Georgians, the Armenians and some Turkic peoples (i.e. Oghuzes, Khazars).

 

You can google Anatolia and see the area begins in the southeastern part of Greece and the northwestern region of modern day Turkey, all along the coastline of where the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea meet.  According to Ezekiel, modern day Turkey is the uttermost parts of the north, not Russia.  Now some of the peoples mentioned do reach inland to the southernmost area of what would be considered today as Russia, but certainly nowhere near the seat of power for that nation.  The vast majority of every people included in Ezekiel 38 are found in Turkey, or what John referred to as Asia Minor.  The areas they occupied happen to coincide with the region that the Medes come from, which aligns with Daniel's prophecies regarding the end times.

To expand on the importance of these groups being referred to as coastland people, refer to Ezekiel's mention of them in other places, here is an excerpt from chapter 27 in regards to Tyre.

 

Ezekiel 27:3 and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrances to the sea, merchant of the peoples to many coastlands, thus says the Lord God:

 

Ezekiel 27:12 “Tarshish did business with you because of your great wealth of every kind; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares. 13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged human beings and vessels of bronze for your merchandise. 14 From Beth-togarmah they exchanged horses, war horses, and mules for your wares. 15 The men of Dedan traded with you. Many coastlands were your own special markets; they brought you in payment ivory tusks and ebony.

 

From Ezekiel 27 in total, you can see that all the nations or peoples mentioned are specific to the area known as the middle east, and only touches the southernmost region of Russia.  If you refer back to the table of nations from Genesis 10, you can also see that the majority of peoples mentioned are directly linked to the genealogy of Japheth, including Tyre.  Most importantly though, Ezekiel says plainly that the descendants of Japheth are coastland people, and that really doesn't describe Russia at all.

 

Interesting stuff. In some of the reading I have done the migration didn't stop at the Caucasus nor western Asia. It appears the horse people of the Eurasian Steppes are descended from Magog. Now, sources says these people no longer exist but I have my suspicions they migrated even further north. In 1908 at the Tunguska event there were eyewitnesses, and from a region both vast and inhospitable, and it's a distinct possibility these are from the line of Scythians which dominated the region for time, and who migrated north from the region of Iran and Asia Minor and are descended from those people groups. People groups which would include Magog and Togarmah, but mainly Magogites. 

Josephus is convinced Scythians are descended from Magog. If that's true then the line of Magog has spread from the Ukraine to the Pacific including Mongolia and northern China. This would lend credence to the claim Magogites settled the vast region of Russia.

I'm not sure there is a qualifier to 'uttermost north' limited to the Caucasus. From the Levant Turkey is north but it's not 'extreme' or 'remote' as the term for 'parts' would indicate. Even a modern map shows there is quite a bit of 'north' past the Black and Caspian Seas.

I agree 'rosh' is a title and not a person, at least in this context, though that is disputed among some scholars they haven't proven it's more than a title. 

[Diaste]

38 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

No

'That day shall not come except the rebellion occurs and the man of sin is revealed proclaiming himself to be god.' (paraphrase)

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2020 at 10:16 PM, Episcopius said:

No aspersions on its origins will wipe it out, demonizing Margaret Macdonald or Manual DeLacunza - folks, they didn't teach PreTrib at all, Darby didn't "get it from them"

Truth. Darby's brainchild and his alone. Poor Miss McDonald.

On 6/9/2020 at 10:16 PM, Episcopius said:

I feel Pre-Tribbers should ask themselves - "Is this really kosher - putting 2000 year GAP in 70 weeks?"

 

Yeah, maybe not. What's the alternative? Jesus isn't here, the world is aflame, heading ever further into lawlessness and destruction. Are you saying the prophecies have been fulfilled?

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2020 at 9:55 PM, Episcopius said:

An EVENT - like a peace treaty - nah, there are peace treaties all the time

A stone temple rebuilt - how would one know that that was not simply OF MAN?

Non-Christian Zionists could conceivably build a temple - they want to...

But it all hangs on sumpn what ain't - a future 70th week of Daniel that has, in reality, come and gone

I'm with you here. What do you make of this?

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." - Dan 9:27

1) "He shall confirm the covenant..."

2) For a period of "...one week.."

3) ''he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,"

4) That will happen in the "...midst of the week..." (at the half)

5) "abominations will desolate" 'it'.

6) What is this 'it'?

7) The abominations that desolate 'it' continue till 'complete annihilation'.

8) And at the last it looks like the 'desolations will flow sharply to wound.'

Has this happened? Comprehensively. As in people saw this and recorded it exactly as the prophecy foretold? Antiochus IV did not do this. This isn't Jesus either as His covenant is with us eternally and this covenant is broken and an 'it' is desecrated.

I'm not saying this is the 70th week, nor there is a large gap of time between the last two weeks of this prophecy, even though I frame many of my arguments this way for this topic. But if Dan 9:27 is not fulfilled in history then it's a time frame that must be dealt with and apparently it is 7 years long, if we remain consistent with the first 69 weeks of 7 years each.

Interesting that you note the 70 weeks ended with the stoning of Stephen. Did that in fact happen 7 years after the crucifixion? The sources I see say it happened in 34-36 AD or as late as 38 AD.

Gerard Gertoux has found Jesus was born Sept/Oct, 2 BCE. The death of Stephen would have to be 40 1/2 years later which would be in the year 40 AD, a few years after his death.