Is faith a work ?

[TheBlade]

What a GREAT question. What did our .. did.. what does our Father do? Did He not call those things that be not as though they were? Was it faith? Was it a work?

[Faithwilldo]

37 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You are on record stating God is THE cause behind ALL things (emphasis mine). How then do you get around God being the cause of sin, the righteous Law Maker being the cause of unrighteousness and lawlessness? 

It has been implied Jesus did not have a mind, affect, or volition of his own, that God was the cause of his thoughts, feelings, choices, and conduct. How do you maintain integrity with the doctrine of the Trinity?

I wish I had the time to respond in detail to all that you said.  I will respond to your last questions quoted above.  

You asked:  How then do you get around God being the cause of sin, the righteous Law Maker being the cause of unrighteousness and lawlessness? 

It is not me who says that God is the cause of all things.  It is God.  

Scripture says that God created evil, therefore He created sin.  He does not sin but He uses sin/evil to accomplish His goal of creating children who know "good and evil".

Lam 3:38   Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Isa 45:5-7  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Satan is not a "fallen angel" as many believe.  He was created by God to be the way He is.  God uses Satan to accomplish His plans for mankind.

Isa 54:16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Job 26:13  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

 

2 Sam 24:1  And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

So how did God "move" David?  He sent Satan. 

1 Chron 21:1  And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

God also sent an evil spirit to trouble Saul.  God has no problem using evil to accomplish good.   

1 Sam 16:14  But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Ecc 1:13  An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 7:13  Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Prov 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God certainly is the cause of "unrighteousness and lawlessness".

 

You asked:  It has been implied Jesus did not have a mind, affect, or volition of his own, that God was the cause of his thoughts, feelings, choices, and conduct. How do you maintain integrity with the doctrine of the Trinity?

The Doctrine of the Trinity is completely false.  God the Father is the one God from which all things come - including Christ.  God the Father created Christ - He is God the Father's Son and God the Father is Christ's God.  

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

God the Father created Christ - He is God the Father's Son.  Someday, all mankind will be sons of God the Father and will be "one" with the Father in the same way that Christ is "one" with the Father.

John 17:21  that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

No where in scripture does it ever say that Christ is equal in authority with the Father.  He is "one" with the Father because He has the Father's Spirit in Him just as we too will have the Father's Spirit in us someday.  Once that day arrives, we too will be able to say "my Father and I are one".  

Just as mankind, Christ has a soul.  Our soul is created when God the Father places our spirit into a body.  In other words:  BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL.  We have an individual awareness and personality BUT we will be exactly like God in character.  We will be so much like God that it will be said that we are "one" with Him.    

Someday Christ's reign over mankind will end when He has accomplished His mission of making many new sons of God.  Christ reign will end and God will be "all and all".   No trinity, just one big happy family.

1Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe 

[Sower]

11 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Yes, Christ does all the work, even the work of giving us faith so as to accept Him as Lord.  If we have "trust", then it is only because He gave it to us.  We contribute nothing.  The choice we make is the work of Christ.  If Christ has chosen a person to be saved in this age, He will do all the work to cause to them to believe and accept Him.  If He wanted to save every person in the world at this time, He could easily do it.    

 

Whosoever will.
I chose.
You can call it what ever tickles your fancy.
Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing by the word.
God gave the word to whosoever will.
Like a muscle, use it or lose it.
Choice. An action of the 'will.'
By my will, I  chose.
I make choices every day, all day long.
As a little uneducated, non theologically endowed beggar searching for living bread.
God has emotions, He can be angry, and He can be pleased.
By the choices I make. I am not a robot.
The creator would not sacrifice His son for a non willing robot.
Salvation is simple.
Salvation is easy.
Man and his over 'educated' mentality, over complicates the simple gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
If I only had 1% of the bible fully understood, I could receive salvation, and learn to lead a Godly life,
with a burden to share the gospel, and a faith to move my butt in action as a soldier for Christ.
I will leave the other 99% for the theological scholars to 'figure out'.....


 

[Faithwilldo]

11 hours ago, Sower said:

 

Whosoever will.
I chose.
You can call it what ever tickles your fancy.
Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing by the word.
God gave the word to whosoever will.
Like a muscle, use it or lose it.
Choice. An action of the 'will.'
By my will, I  chose.
I make choices every day, all day long.
As a little uneducated, non theologically endowed beggar searching for living bread.
God has emotions, He can be angry, and He can be pleased.
By the choices I make. I am not a robot.
The creator would not sacrifice His son for a non willing robot.
Salvation is simple.
Salvation is easy.
Man and his over 'educated' mentality, over complicates the simple gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
If I only had 1% of the bible fully understood, I could receive salvation, and learn to lead a Godly life,
with a burden to share the gospel, and a faith to move my butt in action as a soldier for Christ.
I will leave the other 99% for the theological scholars to 'figure out'.....


 

I certainly have never said that we don't make choices.  We certainly make choices everyday.  The cause behind the choices we make though is God.  We cannot act independently from God.  

Computers make choices everyday, too.  But the computer itself is not the cause of the choices it makes.  The programmer is the cause.  Though this is a very simplistic analogy, it is not far from how God works within us.

Have you considered these verses below?  

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 1:12–13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

Jer 10:23  I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. 

Isa 26:12  O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. 

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

You must remember that God is Spirit and He accomplishes His "will" by working within us.  The scriptures that I posted leave no room for us to be the cause of any choice we make.  Though our human senses can't detect God's presence within us, He is there working His will.  Our carnal nature hates not having control over our decisions and that is one of the reasons why mankind prefers the "old wine" of works.  Our carnal nature wants to show God that we are worthy of salvation, even if it is only in small ways such as taking credit for being wise enough to accept Christ as our Lord.  But the truth is, God caused us to accept Christ.  Our carnal nature we have from birth hates the things of God and will never seek Him out.  

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Because of this truth, God must draw us to Christ.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

God draws us to Christ by giving us spiritual gifts without us having a say in the matter.  His gifts include faith and His Holy Spirit.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Just as Paul's "calling" on the Damascus Road was without Paul's repentance, so is ours.  God is the cause of all things.  This is His creation and He is in full control of it.

Joe

[enoob57]

On 7/12/2020 at 8:51 PM, Wayne222 said:

Jesus said this is the work of God that you believe in The one he sent. If only we would accept that Jesus did all the work for salvation. Our part is to trust him.

our part is to open our hearts door to Him so that we may be made children of God through new spiritual birth....

[ReneeIW]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

16 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

The Doctrine of the Trinity is completely false.

My regrets for not noting this statement earlier. I can we will not be able to reconcile our differences. Thank you for your time. 

 

Yikes! Maybe he should start another thread about this. I thought there were only a few people out there that denied The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I guess one has wandered into here.

[Justin Adams]

15 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

Yikes! Maybe he should start another thread about this. I thought there were only a few people out there that denied The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I guess one has wandered into here.

The trinity is hard to get your head around and I do not like the idea of some being mislead. In the Tanakh there are passages that demonstrate Father, Yeshua (pre incarnate) and the Spirit. It is not a New testament idea.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Alive]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

My regrets for not noting this statement earlier. I can we will not be able to reconcile our differences. Thank you for your time. 

I can't seem to find that post where the individual said the trinity was false teaching.

 

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

I can't seem to find that post where the individual said the trinity was false teaching.

 

You will have to go to yesterday's backup. He must have deleted the post.

[Justin Adams]

Just now, Josheb said:

Nope. It's still there.

Yes. Thanks.