Daughter of Women

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, SONshine said:

I don’t understand your question, Charlie.  Do you mean that the timing of the Antichrist is not at the 6th seal, 6th trump and the 6th vial?  

Sonshine; the way the book is written, it is impossible that any trumpet will sound at the same time as any seal is opened. In the same way, no vial will be poured out at the time any trumpet is sounded. These events are all consecutive. NO trumpet can sound until all seven seals are opened so that the book can be opened: the trumpets (at a minimum) are what is written inside the book. Then the final trumpet is at the midpoint of the week, but the vials are not poured out until late in the week - so all trumpets will be sounded before any vial is poured out.   

[Charlie744]

So sorry if I confused you!!!!!

Let me try it out this way.... Is it possible that the Messiah fulfilled or eliminated the “daily sacrifice” by His crucifixion and the 2,300 days and evenings refer to the time  / period associated with this?

Hope this is clearer.. for please let me know and thanks, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Certainly, but if the sacrificial system was a “type” that was established or “set up” by God to reflect the “perfect” sacrifice to come (His crucifixion), why wouldn’t this speak to it? His crucifixion certainly eliminates any further need of the daily sacrifices... Thank you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, that was a wonderful message! Apparently, and unlike myself, you seem to like using “facts and “supporting verses” to make your case... NOT FAIR .  Well, I think we should try and take this one at a time so I can stay with you!

The quote you selected from Mark refers to the Daniel prophecy... do you agree it comes from 9:27? If so, what is your interpretation of most of chapter 9 —- but specifically verses 9:26 & 9:27?  Who is this speaking of? Look forward to your response, (and remember, no more facts please ), Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Thanks for your prompt response!! 

Ok, I think you are telling me the “he” in 9:27 references the “anti-Christ” and NOT the Messiah, AND in the midst of the week (the 70th week of 9:27) he will cause the sacrifice and offering to cease... is that what you mean?

The entire chapter 9 is speaking of the God of Daniel and the coming Messiah.... but all of sudden many claim that the “he” MUST now focus on the anti-Christ... even though the remainder of the verse confirms the exact time the Messiah was crucified—- 3.5 years of the last 7 years of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy???? 

No, God is not writing about Satan! He is telling  us through Daniel about His rejection of His people and His being “cut off” (crucifixion). Remember, this is a major prophetic book that predicts His Story.. and His primary audience here is the Jews who will reject their Messiah. 

I am sure you are aware that up until the 1500’s just about everyone (sorry for being so general) believed the pope / papacy was the little horn of Daniel. During the Reformation the RCC commissioned 2 Jesuit priests to construct a counter to the “reformers” claiming this relationship. The one was a preternatural view and the other a futurist view where they would put out an interpretation contending the “he” in 9:27 was a future anti- Christ and would arrive to make an agreement. They needed to place the last week of Daniel ‘s 70 weeks also out into the future to keep some integrity to this story. With their immense power they were very successful in marketing the pope away from the little horn and claiming “he” did not mean the Messiah. Jesuit Priest was Ribera or Robert ... something like that. 

This same campaign to remove the pope from the label of the “little horn” required the 7 years to be moved into the future and this became the “gap” type theory that is so accepted today. 

God is having Daniel write about Him and His first coming, His rejections and crucifixion... if we step back and look at these verses of chapter 9 we should easily see how it ALL speaks of God — the. “little horn” has indeed corrupted the Word of God ! And it is ALL because the RCC (little horn) MUST eliminate the identity of being the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8. 

So, if “he in 9:27 is “He” the Messiah, and these verses can only be speaking to the Jews and us of Him, then His crucifixion was indeed the basis for the ceasing of the “daily sacrifice” which was established to represent a “type” of His perfect sacrifice.

Also, chapter 9 speaks much about the “covenant “.. Jeremiah has already told us of the Messiah establishing a “new covenant” with His people— why would we soon forget this and attribute this most important / perfect covenant from God and fail to recognize this was paid for by His crucifixion... Satan is not involved in God’s covenant... he (Satan can NOT make or enter into ANY agreement or covenant with man)! He is a deceiver and a liar and the “little horn “ of Daniel (papacy) has done Satan’s work for him- he has taken the “little horn” label off the pope / papacy and have been successful in our not seeing the Messiah and His sacrifice in His own prophetic words. 

Bottom line: Is Daniel 9 speaking about God and the coming Messiah and His Covenant and crucifixion or does someone have a very significant interest in changing the interpretation of His prophetic words in order to remove the “little horn” label from them? 

I look forward to hearing back from you soon, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Good to hear from you again!

There can be only one this can refer to: the Messiah. I guess I was not very clear in my earlier response... sorry about that!

Chapter 9 is all about Him (Messiah).  His crucifixion will do away with this he sacrificial system.. He is / was the perfect sacrifice. 

The Messiah would complete ALL the requirements (6) mentioned in Daniel during the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks ... but of course we all know He was crucified in the “midst” of the last week. 

Please forgive me but I don’t understand how or why anyone would fail to recognize the Messiah in  9: 25 through 27! It all talks about what literally happened to Him! 

Anyway, I do enjoy hearing from you and thank you for continuing to discuss this extremely important prophecy... again, which was generated by the RCC (little horn) and no one else... 

best wishes always, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Thank you SONshine... I understand we may disagree... no problem.

Before you use Mark and Matthew to interpret Daniel, I would suggest you interpret Daniel on its own first. Daniel was written first for the Jews telling them of the coming Messiah and His being “cut off” and how His crucifixion would stop the need for any further animal sacrifices.  

So, if Mark and Matthew were, not written, I am sure that no one would / might accept 9:27 does not speak directly at the Messiah—- even though the RCC has corrupted these specific verses for their own behalf.

But they certainly were written and thank God they were....

But Mark and Matthew can not disagree or conflict with ANY verse in the OT. And they certainly do not! But the interpretation of Mark and Matthew has driven the incorrect (corruption) of 9:27 by the little horn.  

If you think about it, the sacrificial system was done away with by the crucifixion. The Temple is or became unimportant and also no longer relevant because of the crucifixion. Unfortunately, the Jews were either murdered or completely banished by the Romans (Titus), in 70 AD as their punishment for rejecting their Messiah- they had failed to perform their intended mission to be the priests of the world and preach the one true God to the world- unfortunately, they kept this largely to themselves and did not try and bring gentiles into Judaism. 

This brings me to an understanding so different than what is currently accepted (but this is due to all the misinterpretation surrounding 9:27), and that is this:

Given the above where the sacrificial system and the Temple is no longer relevant, there can NOT be any further corruption or denigration to the Temple... the Temple has no value after the crucifixion- regardless of how much today’s Jews who continue to reject the Messiah and still want a rebuilt Temple - their continued importance on a rebuilt Temple is not important or relevant to God’s Plan. What does this come down to re: the interpretation found within Mark or Matthew that must be in line with a correct interpretation of 9:27 (my interpretation)?

This means that the “abomination that causes desolation” does not reflect a future denigration of a future physical Temple, but the “abomination” is so far greater than that - NOTHING could come close to an “abomination” than the crucifixion of God!!!  What could possibly be worse on the face of this earth- at ANY time in our history? Further, this absolutely horrible abomination (act of the crucifixion) would be predicted by God in Daniel to “cause” the “desolation” of the Jews and the Temple. They both would surely become desolate and destroyed. 

So, either we see and find the Messiah in Daniel or we accept a false interpretation promoted by the “little horn” — which ironically was even prophecized in Daniel.

Please note that I completely understand that this goes against today’s interpretations- but He inspired ALL the Scriptures and they speak of Him. Best wishes always, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Thank you Spock and if you don’t mind... if you have any continued interest in my thoughts on this issue please note there are a few additional comments on page 5 of 5 just after the one previously mentioned.. thanks again, Charlie 

[Spock]

On 8/11/2020 at 8:33 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for your prompt response!! 

Ok, I think you are telling me the “he” in 9:27 references the “anti-Christ” and NOT the Messiah, AND in the midst of the week (the 70th week of 9:27) he will cause the sacrifice and offering to cease... is that what you mean?

The entire chapter 9 is speaking of the God of Daniel and the coming Messiah.... but all of sudden many claim that the “he” MUST now focus on the anti-Christ... even though the remainder of the verse confirms the exact time the Messiah was crucified—- 3.5 years of the last 7 years of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy???? 

No, God is not writing about Satan! He is telling  us through Daniel about His rejection of His people and His being “cut off” (crucifixion). Remember, this is a major prophetic book that predicts His Story.. and His primary audience here is the Jews who will reject their Messiah. 

I am sure you are aware that up until the 1500’s just about everyone (sorry for being so general) believed the pope / papacy was the little horn of Daniel. During the Reformation the RCC commissioned 2 Jesuit priests to construct a counter to the “reformers” claiming this relationship. The one was a preternatural view and the other a futurist view where they would put out an interpretation contending the “he” in 9:27 was a future anti- Christ and would arrive to make an agreement. They needed to place the last week of Daniel ‘s 70 weeks also out into the future to keep some integrity to this story. With their immense power they were very successful in marketing the pope away from the little horn and claiming “he” did not mean the Messiah. Jesuit Priest was Ribera or Robert ... something like that. 

This same campaign to remove the pope from the label of the “little horn” required the 7 years to be moved into the future and this became the “gap” type theory that is so accepted today. 

God is having Daniel write about Him and His first coming, His rejections and crucifixion... if we step back and look at these verses of chapter 9 we should easily see how it ALL speaks of God — the. “little horn” has indeed corrupted the Word of God ! And it is ALL because the RCC (little horn) MUST eliminate the identity of being the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8. 

So, if “he in 9:27 is “He” the Messiah, and these verses can only be speaking to the Jews and us of Him, then His crucifixion was indeed the basis for the ceasing of the “daily sacrifice” which was established to represent a “type” of His perfect sacrifice.

Also, chapter 9 speaks much about the “covenant “.. Jeremiah has already told us of the Messiah establishing a “new covenant” with His people— why would we soon forget this and attribute this most important / perfect covenant from God and fail to recognize this was paid for by His crucifixion... Satan is not involved in God’s covenant... he (Satan can NOT make or enter into ANY agreement or covenant with man)! He is a deceiver and a liar and the “little horn “ of Daniel (papacy) has done Satan’s work for him- he has taken the “little horn” label off the pope / papacy and have been successful in our not seeing the Messiah and His sacrifice in His own prophetic words. 

Bottom line: Is Daniel 9 speaking about God and the coming Messiah and His Covenant and crucifixion or does someone have a very significant interest in changing the interpretation of His prophetic words in order to remove the “little horn” label from them? 

I look forward to hearing back from you soon, Charlie 

I just read this post as you directed me to, Charlie. I must say, whether I agree with your interpretation or not, you did an excellent job making a good case for us to re-evaluate this passage to see if what we have been told is really truth! 
 

The verse 27 I believe seems to have a weird translation that is confusing on its own so I’m going to reread and restudy that Daniel passage in its entirety With an open mind and ask lots of questions.  You are not the only voice that is saying what you are saying......but I like how you added the historical point of view of the RCC in this.  I would put nothing past many of those popes to mislead.....after all, that is what they seem to specialize in over the past hundreds of years. 
 

thanks brother, cheers

spock

[Charlie744]

Spock, greatly appreciate your thoughts... it is extremely rare to see anyone release their grip on the anti-Christ (boogeyman), 7 year tribulation period of Daniel’s last week of the 70 weeks. 

Also, and perhaps something you might consider: I have completed the first 10 chapters of Daniel WITH completely different interpretations surrounding the 8 - 10 major / primary issues that have caused problems;

2,300 days, 

1,290 days,

1,335 days,

”he” in 9:27,

times, times, times and 1/2 times,

little horn (papacy),

10 horns,

3 plucked up, 

etc.,...

All of the above have been seriously misinterpreted because of the same “approach” to who 9:27 speaks about! I am now attempting to unpack 11 which is clearly the most  difficult chapter in Daniel. I spent 6 minutes months on the first 10 chapters and have now spent 8 months on just 11 - and have just started to get some news nice traction... 

The point of all this is that as I have been successful (hopefully) in correctly interpreting Daniel, it is extremely clear that, except for the obvious historical events, actors within the earlier chapters, Daniel moves from a historical to a spiritual interpretation. Daniel 11 is 100% spiritual and speaks entirely of the 4th kingdom and addresses / focuses only on the actors of the 4th kingdom- beast, little horn, 3 plucked up, the 10 horns, of course the Messiah and the corruption of His church after the crucifixion (absolutely NOTHING to do with AE or Ptolemy rulers or the pre-pagan Rome period). 

The obvious key to Daniel which will eliminate all the confusion and misinterpretation is to look for the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation in Daniel and NOT turn Daniel into nothing more than an interesting history lesson- I really don’t think God had that in mind!!!!

Specifically regarding 9:27, and the reason why the terribly long winded message above is to mention that I firmly believe that, although God could have easily recorded “Messiah” instead of “he” in 9:27 is because many / most people - today’s Christians (just like the Jews at the time of His first coming), would fail to recognize Him. Daniel was first written to the Jews and would be a strong prophetic message FOR them... but they failed to see Him in Daniel and certainly in person! We have the actual story of the Messiah and His crucifixion AND His sacrifice and specific predictions in Daniel.... and we also refuse to see Him in Daniel. However, this is also predicted in Daniel (and other books) that the “little horn” will indeed corrupt the Word of God and “do those things their fathers’ father’s have not done”.  He will speak lies ... 

So sorry for this long message, best wishes, Charlie