Daughter of Women

[Retrobyter]

On 8/5/2020 at 11:29 PM, Charlie744 said:

In the Torah we find a few terms - Sons of God and Daughters of Men. However, in Daniel 11 there is a term (only found here) of the “Daughter of Womener ”.

ASSUMING this is NOT a term that might refer to a “ daughter “ of a ruler / a king, etc., can you folks offer some Biblical/Sriptural/Jewish interpretations for this very specific term? Look forward to your thoughts and thanks in advance!!

Shabbat shalom, Charlie744.

Allow me to give you a more practical and historic answer. I would strongly advise you to look up the following:

Daniel 11 Prophecy Fulfilled!

Read through the whole article. (And, for the record, I had absolutely NO hand in writing it!) It was well researched and presented in such a way as to AVOID the unnecessary lure to see any portion of the chapter as being in OUR future. It's not until chapter 12 that the text extends into the distant future, part of which is still our future, too.

Daniel 11:45-12:4 (KJV)

45 "And he (Herod the Great) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end (AFTER Yeshua` or "Jesus" is born), and none shall help him. 
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (the time of Jacob's Trouble, 2000-year+/- tribulation, Jeremiah 30:7), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (the First Resurrection), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (the Second Resurrection). 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Thus, the "daughter of women" (found in verse 17), or "bat hanaashiym" in Hebrew (transliterated), is Cleopatra I, daughter of Antiochus III "the Great" of the Seleucid Empire, given as a wife to Ptolemy V of Egypt.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add the reference

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Allow me to give you a more practical and historic answer. I would strongly advise you to look up the following:

Daniel 11 Prophecy Fulfilled!

Read through the whole article. (And, for the record, I had absolutely NO hand in writing it!) It was well researched and presented in such a way as to AVOID the unnecessary lure to see any portion of the chapter as being in OUR future. It's not until chapter 12 that the text extends into the distant future, part of which is still our future, too.

 

Thanks retro,

This is one of the best posts I've ever read, the article is excellent, and the events are laid out in an undeniable detailed review that show this prophecy was fulfilled.  You may not remember, but a few years ago we discussed this and I argued against you.  I just wanted you to know that the word of God did not return void in that conversation and that since that time I have come to see the truth about this.  Keep sharing the truth brother, good stuff!

[Charlie744]

R. Hartono, thank you very much for your response!  

Obviously, you were kind enough to take the time to research and addressead  who the “ daughter of women “ might refer to...

Actually, I am completely convinced that chapter 11 is in no way a “historical “ reading.  Rather it is a “spiritual” and not literal interpretation.

 I am working on Daniel and have completed the first 10 chapters. Chapter 11 happens to be the most complicated and misinterpretated chapter Daniel, and what you do with 11 will also affect one’s interpretation within Revelation.

If you notice there are many “scriptural, biblical and even messianic” terms, words and phrases within 11. Here are just a few:

1) daughter of the king of the south,

2) shoots of her roots,

3) establish the vision,

4) daughter of women,

5) do that which his fathers’ fathers have not done,

6) many more...

These are not terms or how phrases normally applied or associated with secular activities or events.

All of these terms “fit” with a spiritual interpretation that is centered around the actors and events of the 4th kingdom—- verse 5 and thereafter have nothing to do with those actors and events found in the post Alexander / pre-pagan Rome period. 

If we might concentrate on these special terms we might readily be able to identify just who the other actors are — since we certainly know the actual history of the Messiah, how the Jews rejected Him, how the Jews and the Temple were destroyed by Titus,how the Jews were sent to the gentiles to reveal to them the one true God, how the Christian gentiles hi-jacked ( if you will), the Christian Church from, how this new Christian Church corrupted His Word / Church ( RCC or little horn), then we can see how these terms must or should be interpreted.

The above mentioned special terms along with the actual historical events that we are all aware of ALL pertain and  speak of the actors that are only found in the 4th kingdom; 11 is THE chapter (it is the only one left and that clearly addresses the 2nd coming of our Lord), that MUST include and address:

1) the beast, 

2) the 10 kings,

3) the little horn,

4) the 3 plucked up.

Chapter 11 is an explosion, if you will, of the 4th kingdom. The most significant error made to date is that we have attempted, and been somewhat successful, in trying to match these verses and terms to some actual / historical characters that  would have existed around the post Alexander period. 

But getting back to the original concern as to who the “daughter of women” might be.... it would be the church (adulterous church) which would in fact be corrupted by the “little horn “. 

There is so much more to say re: this “spiritual versus “historical” interpretation, but I am still in-process in trying to complete 11!

Hope this makes some sense even though this response only provides a brief summary of this new interpretation of 11. 

Again, I appreciate your time and thoughts, Charlie 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much for your thoughts! Who would you say is the “he” that is giving “him”?

Appreciate your time and opinions, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Once again, very kind of you to spend the time and consideration to offer your thoughts on 11.... which I totally agree with you- it is THE most difficult chapter in Daniel..... by far! And if this was simply another “historical” writing of what most believe- a compilation of a few relatively unimportant post Alexander / pre-pagan Rome rulers, there would be no reason for such a cryptic writing. God was quite clear and transparent in identifying the first 3 kingdoms.... He could easily have continued doing so in the 4th.... 

But the 4th was a not about man versus man, or another of man’s many terrible conflicts, whether during the 2,000 years or at the end of the 2,000 years. It has to represent the “explanation or the details” of the 4th kingdom which means the 4 actors of Daniel 7 at least; the beast, the 10 horns, the little horn and those 3 plucked up. These all have been “in play” after the crucifixion and continues to the very end. The last section of 11 and certainly all of 12 speak of the end when all of man’s idolatry, disobedience and continued warlike nature has reached it’s end with God. I would respectfully request you might take another look at my earlier response (abovees) to R. Hartono. Verse 5 begins The speaking about these actors and events which also begins in the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome at the time of His crucifixion. Specifically, verses 5 & 6 speak of the coming together of the prince and the KOS at the “end of years”. This is the Messiah (prince) joining with the Jews (His Word) that WILL produce a “great dominion”—— and the WORD became flesh! This takes place at the “end of years”, meaning the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks (during the last week of weeks). The “daughter of the KOS” is is His Church but was rejected by both the Jews and the world... look deeply into verse 6... His agreement or better yet, His COVENANT will not stand or be retained or have “His power”, and will be truly “given up”.

There is so much scriptural / biblical messaging being given to us—- we just need to match these to His Story and NOT to any one or series of a “man’s story. God could have easily revealed the specific names for ALL the pronouns used in 11. But this is what He May have meant when He said, “both of that much of Daniel will never”shut up” until the time of the end, and, “knowledge will increase at the time of the end”. Our eyes have been closed to see Him in 11! I believe He is now opening our eyes since we are coming very close to His 2nd coming. BUT, He certainly would not come UNTIL He allowed us to fully ve understand 2 of His most important books: Daniel and Revelation!

 I have completed the first 10 chapters of Daniel and have spent 7 months just on 11... that is why I have reached out to this very talented Christian community—- to help me identify all of these “special” pronouns, and since we ALL know the actual actors and events that have taken place since the crucifixion, we (collectively) could easily identify them with a high high degree of comfort... BUT, it requires the participants to start with a clear mind without the belief that 11 speaks of an AE or some Ptolemy rulers. So, if any of the very talented Christians reading this might would like to see if this new interpretation speaks of His Plan of Salvation, please let me know and we can study each verse individually- I believe I may have completed the first 15 or so verses and am working on the 2nd major / distinct section of 11 - this represents the “transition” from pagan to papal Rome and the rise of the “little horn”. 

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this long winded response and I certainly hope to find some of you that might be willing to help me with these pronouns, God bless all, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Thank you for sending me this... you must have a lot of information in your files from your research on Daniel...

Unfortunately, this indicates an approach to match the pronouns in a very similar manner as those that created the “currently accepted” interpretations which have produced AE and the Ptolemy rulers. But the reading you have just sent focuses on attempting to match the pronouns to future actors. 

Personally, I don’t believe God is interested in wanting to identify specific actors like Russia, Islam, League of Nations, USA, etc. The “battle” will ALWAYS have some man’s name or a different “man’s kingdom”that is willing to take the side against God and His Plan of Salvation. The underlying actors or kingdoms have and will change during the past 2,000 years. These pronouns could, and most certainly were, attributed to Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, and others. And could easily be applied at times to the UN, USA, and now China or the EU.

Once again, and I apologize for continuing to repeat myself, God could have easily have easily identified the exact actors ... past or future, if He wanted to... We keep trying to identify and view these verses at a “6 foot level”.

Remember, He has given us the actors that are relevant to the 4th kingdom; beast, 10 horns, little horn, the 3 plucked up. And these actors are only the concerned and involved in the corruption of His Word or Plan”. 

If you are willing, would you mind taking verses 5 & 6 only and give me your interpretation or identification of the actors / meanings of the phrases ASSUMING they will reflect a more spiritual approach versus a purely historical approach that gives us today’s “accepted interpretations”? 

It will be very difficult and you may not have the time or interest (which would certainly be understandable), but I have found it is extremely rewarding to TRY and identify these pronouns under this approach. I can assure you that I may not have correctly identified each actor (yet), but there is absolutely NO doubt this chapter is to interpreted in a spiritual manner versus an historical one. 

Thanks again for taking the time to read these thoughts regarding this new interpretation / approach —— the approach is so right but the identification of the pronouns are still extremely difficult—- and this is even though we know the limited actors and all of the historical events that took place. Best wishes, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

I fully understand and you have been more than kind in responding to my post and offering your views!

Chapter 11 is son difficult but also so interesting...

And, if you find the time and interest, can you let me know who the identity of the “contemptible person” might be in 11:21?

 I find this might be the “little horn” (papacy). 

Thanks so much again, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Thank you! Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, there are more than a few verses that speak of the “abomination that causes desolation”... certainly in Daniel in a few chapters and in Matthew as you have quoted... 

One of course is in 8:13 (I believe this may be the first mention...), but would you mind letting me know your thoughts on 8:13?  What is your opinion on this and the 2,300 days and evenings?

 I believe this explains or provides the basis or foundation for all further references in the Scriptures re: AoD... 

Once again, this is from Daniel and is also one of your the most difficult and controversial passages in Daniel which  are applied to later interpretations.  Look forward to hearing back from you on this, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

Ok and I got it... thank you very much!   

Question: Do you think it is possible that these two things might have been fulfilled / completed by the Messiah, as opposed to these two being or occurring in the future by some anti-Christ?

 I certainly enjoy your opinions and look forward to hearing back from you, Charlie