Daughter of Women

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Thanks for answering all my questions wingnut....I definitely need some time to ponder and sort over everything you said. However, the very last thing you said has confused me. If I’m reading you write, it sounds like you don’t believe a 3rd temple needs to be built in Israel before the second coming. Is this true? 

 

No problem brother, and the answer is yes, I do not believe a third temple is necessary regarding the beast of Revelation.  There is nothing in Revelation to tie the beast to a temple, that is all based on assumption.

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

If so, how do you reconcile these verses with that then...

2 thess 2: 

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

From the moment Jesus died on that cross the veil of the temple was torn in two, by a divine act.  From that moment on any significance of a physical temple ceased to exist to God.  Paul is one of the NT writers who teaches us that we are now the temple, so when he wrote this passage we should understand that he is not speaking of a physical temple.  I would look to the example in scripture, Judas, and expect the man of sin (lawlessness) will follow the model of a betrayer, one who poses as a Christian but is actually a wolf in sheep's clothing.  When he declares himself to be God, it will be rather obvious, but there is nothing to say this must be done in a physical temple.  Setting himself up in the temple most likely speaks to a position of hierarchy within the Christian faith.

Isn't that the model of all false prophets or false messiah's throughout history?  Every single example is someone whose roots are in the faith, they then gain a following by persuading people they are special and voila, a cult is born.  Just consider what Paul says after and see if it is not consistent with all the information.

 

II Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

He can do things to convince people, but his signs and wonders are false, and he is using deception.  So God sends a strong delusion to the wicked, this encompasses all of mankind, and even those who reject Christianity will be convinced by this man to believe what is false.  Whoever this is, he will come from among us.

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Matt 24

15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’fn spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

 

The term "holy place" does not equate to a temple, Jerusalem is referred to as a "holy place" or "holy city" so the holy place will most likely be somewhere within the city.

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Do you not believe what happened around 161 BC regarding AE was a Type, a foreshadow of things to come?

 

Only if the modern interpretation of Daniel is true.  If there is a more accurate understanding of chapter 11 that has no flaws as every presentation I have ever seen does, then I would go with what aligns to the whole of scripture.

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

If that literally happened, why don’t you believe it could and will happen again with the Beast? 

 

Things can happen again, but if we know a prophecy has been fulfilled then it has been fulfilled, anything that resembles it in the future doesn't change that.  Think of it this way, you're not looking to the future for a virgin birth and Jesus to be born again, and neither is anyone else, so why should Daniel or any other prophecy be treated differently?  Why would we recognize the significance of who our Savior is at birth, but devalue His death and resurrection when it is the most significant event ever?

 

[Charlie744]

There is so much wonderfulwh information presented within the last few days.... you folks are so talented and knowledgeable!! 

 What I think I see here is a very similar “thing” to that takes place when folks study and interpret the Bible... and NO one is immune to this!

In the OT God had given us story after story surrounding the hills and valleys (obedience and also idolatry, failure and success) of His people, the Jews. No two stories were identical or perhaps even similar or even familiar to the other, however they would ALL carry a consistent message or theme.

Despite the particular story there could be a message or teaching in one that would conflict to that found in the other... of one thought so, I would simply say they have misread or misinterpreted one or the other. Also, I believe the God would have not sent His Messiah UNTIL He (God) had completed writing ALL the books of the OT for His people (and certainly all of us- but the Jew first), to read  / study / learn His commands / reveal all the prophecies about Him, etc., etc.  God would never give His class or give us a test before He had provided us with ALL the study materials, ALL the necessary texts and books, and would explain things to ALL His students in infinite detail should they still fail to recognize and understand His Words!

Looking back on His curriculum, although His messages never conflicted, He would ensure each class (story or lesson) was given separately ... no different than our many classes in our education institutions scheduled accordingly to the particular discipline.

Consquently, since the Jews had a complete set of books and everything they might need to pass the “class”, regardless of whether they succeeded, and unfortunately they did not, we should not ever expect or think any information post the crucifixion could or would be found to conflict or disagree with the OT writings. The ONLY possible explanation would be that our interpretations and one or the other or possibly both readings are correct incorrect!

Despite not having any understanding or knowledge of the Scriptures prior to a few years ago, except for some your typical kids stories like the lion’s den story and certainly the crucifixion, etc., I saw / recognized so many different interpretations by many brilliant scholars over the last 2,000 years- and this occurred at the chapter level, a specific verse level and even strong differences on a specific word level.

Essentially, big picture was that there is NO agreement on just about everything (except for the simple things like the lion’s den story). There usually are 2 or 3 major or mostly accepted interpretations, but even they begin to separate as their interpretation is drilled down by on! 

Therefore, after reading all their interpretations AND their “proofs or references” to a gazillion biblical references to support their interpretations, the more I “think I saw or recognized” that the “weight or volume” of those supporting references seemed to almost ensure their interpretation on a certain verse or its “real or intended” meaning.

Well, like the previous message to SONshine earlier this morning, I decided to try and study Daniel as though I might have been a Jew sometime in the past (perhaps the early first or even 2nd century AD and see what Daniel should tell me. I would not have access to any NT writings BUT I would have a strong understanding that Jesus was the promised Messiah, He was crucified, He did arise on the 3rd day and His Holy Spirit was given to us, as He promised, on Pentecost.

So what do I do with all of this available information in my desire to understand Daniel?

Obviously, I study Daniel on its own (yes I would be able to access references in the OT which would be valuable), but I think EVERYONE would agree, God had or did provide us with ALL that was necessary or required to fully understand and interpret ALL the verses in Daniel (with the exception where God has “shut up” Daniel’s ability to understand certain things).

Consequently, we should expect to interpret Daniel on its own and determine:

1) who is “he” in 9:27,

2) what does the “covenant” refer to,

3) what or when does this 7 year period relate to or where does it happen,

4) what could the term “cut off” mean and who was “cut off”, 

5) what does the 3.5 year (midst of the 7 years) refer to... does this connect with the other words / messages within those same verses,

6) do these words within the same connected / adjoining verses tell a specific story or are they unrelated and all of a sudden go off in another direction giving us piecemeal messages that many would / could and will select (cherry pick) those seemingly unconnected verses and suture them to other verses that are / were never intended to meet up,

This was my comment to SONshine and ANYONE wanting to study Daniel (or other books But Daniel is on my plate now). Just unpack Daniel as though no NT books are available BUT with knowledge of the Messiah, Crucifixion, etc. THEN we can expect to arrive at a “pure” Daniel understanding and interpretation. And once this is completed, we will be able to utilize this knowledge and the accurate understanding of Daniel to match up with the writings of Paul, the Gospels and everything NT.... and like everything found in ALL disciplines, engineering, finance, chemistry, etc., it is necessary to find or identify a “standard” or “base” to bounce or compare things to or against. Daniel is the “standard” to use to understand those quotes and verses in the NT - whether they be Matthew or Mark or Revelation.... why? God be is 100% true, accurate and consistent—- NONE of His Words will ever conflict with any other one! First, understand Daniel and then use it to interpret NT verses where they refer or speak to the Book of Daniel. In this way, one can easily see those NT verses that have been interpreted by man for their own agenda and then requires verses in OT (in this case Daniel) to be interpreted to meet those misinterpretations (intentional or not), or misunderstandings.

But in so much of what certainly is THE most complicated class in ANY discipline or course study, we have no problem taking a senior level class or two prior to a core class or a required class within our  respective discipline in our freshman year.

If anyone would use this approach there would not be many disputes re: chapter 9, especially 9:24 to 9:27. 

Finally, today I read where someone claimed that 9:26 or 9:27 could not be completely confirmed or resolved UNTIL chapter 11 was properly interpreted! This is EXACTLY my point! And absolutely NO is my response to this... 11 will not determine 9, just as Revelation will not confirm or drive our Daniel interpretations!

Can not put the cart before the horse... yet just about every commentator is guilty of it!!! (and once again, the difficulty of the Scriptures, the many, many different translations of those same words and verses as well as the many personal “agendas” of those interpreters, and on and on) should tell us all we MUST use God’s Words as our “standard” in interpreting His Words... I guarantee He had a wonderful purpose in writing / presenting the specific order of the Scriptures! 

Summation: given to SONshine and to anyone interested ... the OT is our standard and we should NEVER expect to find a message in the NT that would EVER contradict His Words in the OT... they MUST agree with each other WITHOUT exception... 

So, study 9 before 11 ... because 9 will guide 11, not the other way around... but if done correctly, they will compliment each other and fit like a hand in a glove.  

So stop taking ALL the books of the Bible (OT and NT), and then throw them all down there n the floor and then pick one up (say it is one from the NT) and decide that one takes precedence over one from the OT...this is an example (no, not by any stretch a solid day one but it should get my point across) of how I have found the “approach” used to arrive at their interpretations—- it would never be applied in the business world or within any discipline!!!

Best wishes to all, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, that is certainly true- no argument whatsoever!

Now, given that principle, please tell me why there are SO many different interpretations at the chapter level, the verses level and also found frequently at even the individual word level?

Just because you can make the overall general ( and true) statement, it does NOT make YOUR comments or interpretations accurate or correct... 

I don’t believe you have understood the comments made in my recent posting... tell me, what is stopping me from making the exact same claim against you—- I could make the generalization you just made and then claim your interpretations do not agree with those found in subsequent books or verses?

NOTHING!

Scripture never contradicts Scripture... but it you misinterpret Scripture that misinterpretation will corrupt the next Scripture interpretation.

For me, 9:26 to 9:27 is so transparent and clear as to it’s intended meaning... I will be able to apply / use this information and interpretation in the manner it was intended and with other messages in the Scriptures where they may be referenced or found... and I will be comfortable knowing (for me) that my interpretation of Scripture does not contradict my interpretations of later verses in the Scriptures. Consequently, I would meet the exact same threshold or requirement that you would make using your own interpretations...

But I don’t think you seem to see that! You seem to guarantee YOUR interpretations because you can make a general statement that your interpretations do not contradict your own interpretations..

Which is exactly why you need to go back to square 1 and study Daniel with a clean starting point— not influenced by NT interpretations or those that have obviously corrupted many Scriptural verses / interpretations (which are then used to apply to those OT verses that are still in disagreement among the scholars.

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, let me ask you just one question please:

1) in chapter 9, Daniel writes about a “covenant”.  Ignoring any other terms attached to this word ( ignore time, etc.), would you please tell me if there are any Scriptures in the OT (Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc.) which speak to or about a new “covenant” that will be established with the Jews?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, I already have done the research on this issue....

Best wishes, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

e, thank you very much for the “react” vote...

Now, if you do not mind, how does one access the option to create or vote, if you will, for a “thumbs up” or another ?

Secondly, I noticed that most subject lines posts have a solid circle adjacent to the title... 

Others may have a light colored star and some may not have any symbol at all.. Do you know what these mean or represent?

 Thank, Charlie 

[Spock]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:59 PM, wingnut- said:

 

No problem brother, and the answer is yes, I do not believe a third temple is necessary regarding the beast of Revelation.  There is nothing in Revelation to tie the beast to a temple, that is all based on assumption.

 

 

From the moment Jesus died on that cross the veil of the temple was torn in two, by a divine act.  From that moment on any significance of a physical temple ceased to exist to God.  Paul is one of the NT writers who teaches us that we are now the temple, so when he wrote this passage we should understand that he is not speaking of a physical temple.  I would look to the example in scripture, Judas, and expect the man of sin (lawlessness) will follow the model of a betrayer, one who poses as a Christian but is actually a wolf in sheep's clothing.  When he declares himself to be God, it will be rather obvious, but there is nothing to say this must be done in a physical temple.  Setting himself up in the temple most likely speaks to a position of hierarchy within the Christian faith.

Isn't that the model of all false prophets or false messiah's throughout history?  Every single example is someone whose roots are in the faith, they then gain a following by persuading people they are special and voila, a cult is born.  Just consider what Paul says after and see if it is not consistent with all the information.

 

II Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

He can do things to convince people, but his signs and wonders are false, and he is using deception.  So God sends a strong delusion to the wicked, this encompasses all of mankind, and even those who reject Christianity will be convinced by this man to believe what is false.  Whoever this is, he will come from among us.

 

 

The term "holy place" does not equate to a temple, Jerusalem is referred to as a "holy place" or "holy city" so the holy place will most likely be somewhere within the city.

 

 

Only if the modern interpretation of Daniel is true.  If there is a more accurate understanding of chapter 11 that has no flaws as every presentation I have ever seen does, then I would go with what aligns to the whole of scripture.

 

 

Things can happen again, but if we know a prophecy has been fulfilled then it has been fulfilled, anything that resembles it in the future doesn't change that.  Think of it this way, you're not looking to the future for a virgin birth and Jesus to be born again, and neither is anyone else, so why should Daniel or any other prophecy be treated differently?  Why would we recognize the significance of who our Savior is at birth, but devalue His death and resurrection when it is the most significant event ever?

 

Thanks for your thorough analysis of my many questions. I appreciate reading your perspective and like I have said, I appreciate you as my brother in Christ.  
 

For the record, I don’t really care if someone is a pre tribber, mid tribber, or a postie.....just as long as they love God, believe in Jesus, and hold up God’s word as authority.  We are all flawed humans trying to do our best...God understands this....I think His main concern is that we walk in love and kindness toward one another in the family....that way the earth dwellers could see that we really are different and that maybe this God they serve really is who they say He is. 
 

Shalom,

spock

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Now, if you do not mind, how does one access the option to create or vote, if you will, for a “thumbs up” or another ?

 

In the lower right of any post made you should see a circle with a thumbs up in it, when you click on that it gives you choices regarding reactions.

 

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Secondly, I noticed that most subject lines posts have a solid circle adjacent to the title...

 

Not sure what you are referring to here, maybe you can clarify?

 

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Others may have a light colored star and some may not have any symbol at all.. Do you know what these mean or represent?

 

Not sure what you mean here either, not sure what type of device you use for the site so it may differ from mine if you are not on a computer.

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks for your thorough analysis of my many questions. I appreciate reading your perspective and like I have said, I appreciate you as my brother in Christ.  
 

For the record, I don’t really care if someone is a pre tribber, mid tribber, or a postie.....just as long as they love God, believe in Jesus, and hold up God’s word as authority.  We are all flawed humans trying to do our best...God understands this....I think His main concern is that we walk in love and kindness toward one another in the family....that way the earth dwellers could see that we really are different and that maybe this God they serve really is who they say He is. 
 

Shalom,

spock

 

I appreciate you also brother, and agree that eschatology positions don't affect who we are in Christ.

God bless

[RevReveal]

Thank you very much!!

 I saw the “thumbs up” circle but I thought that was the result of someone’s actions... not the “options button” used to drop down the underlying selections..

Wow, that was more difficult for me than chapter 11!!! Go figure!

Regarding the second issue: if you go to a specific forum- Prophetic forum as an example, there is the listing of “titles” identifying the subject matter... 

In this particular forum, the 1st title is identified as “Pre-Tribulation...”. To the left of this title is a specific solid dark circle... (most show this). Some also have or had a lightly shaded star (I believe my subject had this for a long time), however, I noticed the star is gone and now there is nothing showing adjacent to the title...

Hope this is much better for you to understand and thank you folks again, appreciated

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by RevReveal
correct