Daughter of Women

[Spock]

7 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

There really is nothing to get from it brother, it follows the same model as all the others.  You get this comprehensive and detailed explanation up to the mid 30 verses and suddenly we jump two thousand years into the future for no apparent reason, at a time of no significance.  This jump occurs roughly 165-170 years before Christ even comes to the earth, and ironically jumps right past the most significant time in history to thousands of years in the future.  It just isn't sensible.

If chapter 11 is indeed historical, then wouldn't it cover all the history of it?  Where in RM's breakdown does it cover the rest of the story?  Where is the war between Marc Antony and Augustus?  Why does it not include all the events involving the history of the 4th kingdom if that is what it is about?

I read his commentary a long time ago. Admittedly, I read all those facts and events and said to myself.....are they accurate?  And if they are, is this God’s way of showing us how prophetic he is?  Because obviously all that, what RM wrote, occurred AFTER Daniel penned his book. That by itself makes God look pretty impressive because then it becomes more than just a history lesson.  It becomes God telling the world.....I KNOW EVERYTHING EVEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS.....TRUST AND BELIEVE ON ME! 

[wingnut-]

7 minutes ago, Spock said:

I read all those facts and events and said to myself.....are they accurate?

 

Therein is the problem with the approach, they are accurate up to the middle of the chapter and then when historians run out of answers they inexplicably jump thousands of years into the future and leave out major chunks of history.  If it is in fact history, then God would include all of the history.  God is consistent that way.

[Charlie744]

There are so many very difficult actors to consider and identify in 11. So many pronouns to put a name to..

How can one possibly identify a particular “he” or “him” and try to carry them through 2,000 years of time. 

Do we accept that the first 20 or 30 verses follow an entirely “historical” approach- because we can (almost) match the actors to most of the events found in our history books?

How much of 11 is truly historical, how much is not (spiritual), and how much may be purely “end times” prophecy that we would ALL find easy to accept (chapter 12).  

With all the supporting and complimentary information surrounding (for me, almost seemingly choking) “he” in 9:26, many are adamant this refers to a future anti-Christ arising some 2,000 years  later.

The “information” that is surrounding “he” are  very specific and descriptive and for me, can point to only ONE person- the Messiah! It is amazing to me to learn how so many can find and readily accept our scholarly work that can “match up” so many actors in 11 to all the pronouns (but certainly incomplete, inconclusive and definitely not in agreement by any standard), yet they refuse to be able to “match up” the available information to the prophecies in Jeremiah and other prophets, to the actual events of the Messiah found in the writings of Paul and certainly in the Gospels.

 I believe the answer why we interpret 11 is similar to the one we are willing to accept 9:26 “he” as the Messiah:

It would have been so easy for God to have placed His Name (Messiah) instead of the pronouns “he”. After all, Daniel and the prophecies found in it were written to the Jews. They lived through all the good and bad times with God since Abraham. And by the time of Daniel perhaps God had reached a point where Israel would always return to idolatry and disobedience - it is time to bring in someone who will not fail or disobey My Words or commandments. God would take Daniel from their expulsion from Israel to the Messiah by way of the gentile kingdoms. Instead of writing another 25 new books to be included in the OT which would have recorded all the stories of how the gentiles would also fail to honor and obey God, He collapsed their results into the four gentile kingdoms as they would respond to the Words of the Jews- they would not accept their God.

But this would come to a conclusion at the arrival of the promised Messiah!

Neither the Jews not the gentiles would accept Him as the One true God. This is exactly the same situation we are in NOW!

The Jews could not “see” the Messiah at His first coming and therefore I believe God would reveal this to us by purpose placing “he” in 9:26 rather the writing in the Messiah.

I believe we are doing the exact same thing- despite all the surrounding information found in say 9:24 onward, AND the fact that Daniel is a book with tremendous prophetic importance, we somehow refuse to see Him in the center of all the prophetic verses in 9.

Getting back to 11, it really is quite similar! Except for 12 which is concerned with the second coming, 11 is the last “available” chapter left in Daniel for Him to reveal His Plan of Salvation to the world and for the next and last 2,000 years of mankind.

This of course must / will take place during the 4th kingdom. Consequently, He would need to include the actors He already mentioned in chapter 7- beast, 10 kings, little horn and the 3 plucked up. These actors ARE the “A” list actors on the 4th kingdom, along with the Messiah of course. 

In the Gospels, it has been made abundantly clear that we are involved in a “spiritual “ war. Certainly this war will have millions of casualties but that is because man will always seek power over others using force, murder, lies, etc. But God is concerned with our souls and this is a war that is not one that involves our fellow man getting together to form massive armies... it is not a war of numbers or battleships or tanks, etc. It is a individual or one on one war and each of us can determine if they will bring the Holy Spirit into us during this battle. The 4th kingdom is about this spiritual war... these “pronouns” in 11 are at times interchangeable / real actors, but because they must carry through 2,000 years of the actual identification or their names are not important or necessary... and I guess a perfect example might be the “little horn”. For me, there is no doubt the little horn is the papacy or pope lead organization. And because this little little horn must live or carry on for some 2,000 years, there and of course must have many many popes. So God can identify any one of these 4th kingdom actors using a pronoun without needing to list out all 190 or so individual popes.

The exact same can be accomplished by God for the KOS, the KON, etc.,

This “spiritual” approach not only is applied to the actors but also to identify the non-actor events or verses. An example might be where God refers to certain “things” that the “evil one” or the “contemptible one”, depending on the translation used will do what His fathers’ father’s had not done. Everyone attributes this phrase as referring to a father of one of the kings- Ptolemy’s or AE’s  relatives.  No! These also must be interpreted in a non-historical manner. And finally one of the comments that triggered this response from me - where I think some will accept an historical approach or interpretation of 11 but only for the 1st 30 verses of 11... they can buy in to the current interpretations which have those actors and events in the post Alexander yet pre-pagan Rome period (3rd kingdom), but since no one has any near acceptable interpretation for verses starting at 31, they may be willing to accept a hybrid approach- historical up to v. 30 and would then “something else” after that!

First, I believe we should consider a few important things:

1) God can easily write His Work (11) under ANY approach. All historical, all spiritual or anywhere in between, 

2) Chapter 11 really must be about Him and His Plan of Salvation for us... what’s the point of attributing His prophetic capital to some nobodies in the 3rd kingdom (which removes any discussion or revelation of the actors and events in the 4th kingdom,

3) Just because we can not complete all of 11 in a purely historical approach does not necessarily make it the wrong approach but it really should be able to allow us to question this approach AND what MIGHT God want to tell us that WILL help us in this ‘Spiritual war”!

4) Should a spiritual approach prove “acceptable” or “matches up”, not to some physical kings and their related conflicts, for the first 30 verses, it should be expected to “work” for the remaining verses in 11! And they do! I do agree that v. 31 caused me so much pain since this verse became a sort of “acid test”, if you will. If this verse was historical, then I felt the entire chapter would have to be historical and everything I have done was worthless—- I was not even opened to a 

“hybrid” type approach. I believed God is quite able to provide us a revelation of the coming 2,000 years with those actors identified in chapter 7 without making this some cryptogram or truly unsolvable puzzle. 

5) Chapter 11 is to be interpreted under a single approach (my opinion) - all historical or spiritual, BUT regardless of the approach, it MUST 

speak, discuss or reveal the chapter 7 actors AND how those actors, not only can carry forward for the next 2,000 years, but most importantly, have Him and His Plan of Salvation as THE focus!!!

As our currently accepted interpretations stand, they are a weak attempt of an unimportant part of a time in our history—- we have our history books for that. God has certainly included some, even many actual characters from history in the stories of the Bible but they were supporting characters for the lessons we needed to learn between God and mankind.

AE or the Ptolemy period rulers of the 3rd kingdom offers us absolutely nothing relevant to His Plan nor the 4th kingdomee revelation/prophecies about the coming Messiah, the little horn, etc.

Well, I am going back to finish 11 and I thank you for taking the time to read this... I sincerely hope some of it may have been worth your time in reading it, best wishes to all in this forum, Charlie