7 year tribulation

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here is what was said in a previous post:

"The 'he' will strengthen or confirm a covenant for the entire 70th week. 'HE' is a pronoun and all  pronouns must have an antecedent........it must refer back to someone earlier in the text....

That someone is the 'prince who is to come'."

Sorry, but that is an error, both in the Hebrew text and in the English translation.

In English, the antecendent CANNOT BE the noun within a prepositional phrase!"

I don't believe this is true: an antecedent can certainly be inside a prepositional phrase. 

 

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 

Subject......verb.......object
Messiah..shall be.. cut off
The people..(of the prince).. shall come; shall destroy   (without a doubt, the prince comes with the people)
the end...shall be...flood
Wars....are...determined

note, "of the prince" is the prepositional phrase. It is NOT a subject. It was His army that did the destroying. 

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Subject......verb.......object
He...shall confirm...covenant

WHAT is the antecedent of He? Back up to the first noun: "of the prince." 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Perhaps I'm just not explaining myself well enough, yet. First, the prepositional phrase includes a clause: the whole prepositional phrase is: "of the prince that shall come"; in Hebrew, "[`am] nagiyd habaa' " which translates literally to "[people] of-prince the-comer." This much merely corrects the fact that "that shall come" refers to the person, the "prince," not the "people."

Therefore, the clause outside the prepositional phrase is "the people ... shall-destroy the-city and-the-sanctuary."

Secondly, remember that chapter and verse divisions are of human origin. They were NOT inspired by God, nor were they planned with any great significance. They are fairly arbitrary and were merely installed to make an indexing system to the Holy Text. While most of the time they aide in understanding the breaks in sentences and paragraphs, they can also cause great harm by dissociation between parts that were randomly broken apart with a verse division or a chapter division.

There are no real divisions between verses 26 and 27. The verbs in verse 27 have no subject noun, if the verse stood alone. Combined with the connective vav in the first word of verse 27, the two verses are ONE sentence in Hebrew, and the subject noun for these verbs is found in verse 26.

The verbs of verse 27 are singular, masculine, third-person and therefore must agree with the subject noun. And, the ONLY such third-person, singular, masculine, subject noun is found in verse 26, the word "Mashiyach" or "Messiah."

Again, in Hebrew, the subject CANNOT be the second noun of the noun construct state! And, the noun construct is "`am nagiyd!" Therefore, "nagiyd" cannot be the subject of the sentence.

Thus, the "push" is that "Mashiyach" MUST be the ONLY real subject of the verbs of verse 27, and the "pull" is that "nagiyd" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs! Between the conclusions of these positive and the negative arguments, the only mutual solution can be that the subject of the verbs of verse 27 is the "Mashiyach" of verse 26.

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that verse 27 says...

1. The Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one Seven,

2. And in the middle of the Seven, the Messiah shall bring an end to offering and sacrifice, 

3. And against the spread-out wing of detestable things, the Messiah shall be One who makes desolate.

And, these were FULFILLED by...

1. Yeshua` confirming the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:11-16; 1 Chronicles 17:10-14) with the Jews for 7 years, as did His ancestor David with the tribe of Yhudah (2 Samuel 2:1-4; 1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27) by submitting to His baptism, when GOD His Father said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17);

2. Yeshua` completing the need for reconciliation with God by His own death, and as the author of Hebrews said,

Hebrews 10:8-16 (KJV)

8 Above when he said,

"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law"; (Psalm 40:6)

9 Then said he,

"Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." (Psalm 40:8)

He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,' saith the Lord, 'I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them'" (Jeremiah 31:33); 

17 And

"'their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.'" (Jeremiah 31:34)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

3a. The "spread-out wing of detestable things" are written in the body of Matthew 23:1-37, and 
3b. Yeshua` the Messiah "made them desolate" in Matthew 23:38.

Furthermore, Matthew 23:39 shows that the Seven was indeed split in two:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Psalm 118:26)"

He quoted verse 39 from this passage:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of this sentence is ...

"Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH" which translates directly to "Blessed the-Comer in-Name of YHWH."

Furthermore, as I've pointed out before, the first two words, Baruwkh haba', are seen at every airport and seaport in Israel in their plural forms, "Baruwkhiym haba'iym":

In a practical sense, the words mean, "Welcome, comers!"

Therefore, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," means "Welcome, comer on the authority of YHWH."

Thus, Yeshua` was saying He wouldn't return until they could WELCOME Him back as YHWH God's Messiah with God's authority! Only three and a half years passed from the start of His ministry, signaled by His baptism, until He was rejected and crucified. The second three and a half years won't happen until He returns, once again offering the children of Israel the Kingdom. The time in between the two halves of the 70th Seven is the Desolation or "the Times of the Gentiles" when "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles." (Luke 21:24)

So, in Acts 1 we read,

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (into the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."

So, Daniel 9:27 is most definitely NOT about the "antichrist!" It is about the Messiah Himself!

Edited August 22, 2020 by Retrobyter
because it's now the Shabbat

[Charlie744]

Beautifully written and thank God!

With respect, I would like to make a small comment—- I wonder why folks seem to have to account for the second 1/2 of Daniel’s last week...Yes the Messiah was crucified in the midst of the week or 3.5 years, and then try and identify activities or events to this remaining 3.5 year period was in the end times.

There is a time frame for  3.5 years in Revelation but I don’t believe it is the remaining 3.5 of Daniel.

Despite the “cutting off” of the Messiah, He had to fulfill ALL of His requirements (6). I believe the period He had to accomplish them was not within the last week or 7 years, but He had to complete them within the 7 Passover’s within the 7 years (and essentially removing any importance to a “calendar” period after His crucifixion. 

Despite His crucifixion, Jesus would confirm the fulfillment of His mission and the 6 requirements, by saying on the cross “it is finished”. By His death, He eliminated the sacrificial system; no more animal sacrifices would be required (ever), BUT most importantly, the remaining sacrifices associated with the remaining 3 Passover’s within Daniel’s last week would be considered “fulfilled”. 

So this is just another way I have also learned the “He” in 9:27 can be no other than the Messiah—- And every Word by God must support His Story and only man will find a way to take the prophetic verses away from Him and attribute them to a mythical anti-Christ that will come in the last week of Daniel some 2,000 years in the future. It ALL fits like His glove!!!!

The Messiah would be on earth during Daniel’s 70 th week for 7 years AND 7 Passover’s- but as you know, they do not line up... The 1st Passover would take place 1/2 year after His Baptism by John in the Jordan. Consequently, during His 3.5 years, He would see 4 Passover’s where He would be crucified at the 4th (this also ties into the 7 Feasts).... The Messiah would complete 4 of the 7 Feasts before His crucifixion leaving of course the Fall Feasts only! 

But His Mission was to fulfill ALL 7 of the Passover’s within the last week. If completed, then “He” would also have eliminated the “daily sacrifice and offering”(complete 9:27). Further, He would become the “abomination” that caused desolation!  The crucifixion was a THE event or act that would cause God to punish the Jews later on in 70 AD. NO other event could possibly be considered a greater “abomination” than His crucifixion!!!!

And even after all of these fulfillment’s written by Daniel, we refuse to see the Messiah in them! Daniel is speaking God’s prophecies about the Messiah - NO prophetic ink to a mythical anti-Christ figure (within Daniel). 

But getting back to how everything ties together and SPEAKS ONLY of the Messiah, 9:24 to 9:27 must also tie in with 8:13   & 8:14! 8:13 speaks to the identification of the “vision”, the “burnt offering”, the “transgression that causes appalment” - (abomination that causes desolation), “sanctuary and host” to be trampled under foot.... does all this sound familiar to the crucifixion? But 8:14 tells us this PERIOD will be for 2,300 days... EVERYONE has developed their own interpretation of this period EXCEPT the ONLY one that speaks to the ONLY important person who has ever lived- and the MOST important message in Daniel- the Messiah!  We seem to find everyone BUT the Messiah in Daniel—- AND without going off in another completely different direction, this is exactly what I have mentioned ad nauseum.. scholars and interpreters over the past 2,000 years have interpreted everyone other than the Messiah in chapter 11!!!

So the 8:13 & 8:14 must NOT conflict the each other but MUST support each other...(AND must not be treated or considered as “separate” events or prophecies of the same time or each having their own time slot.

These “things” of chapters 8 & 9 (mentioned above, will be fulfilled in 2,300 days. Who MUST complete them? ONLY the Messiah! 

The Messiah would have attended 7 Passover’s during the 70th week. The actual period from the Messiahs Baptism to the final or 7th Passover would amount to 6.5 years (since His Baptism was 1/2 year PRIOR to the 1st Passover in Daniel’s 70th week). Using 360 days per year, this totals 2,340 days. However, the Messiah, who would serve as our (THE) High Priest (in addition to THE Sacrificial Lamb), would not be allowed to serve UNTIL He was deemed / declared “clean” (priestly requirements found in Leviticus). Jesus would NEVER disobey God’s Laws! Even the Messiah would need to be cleansed (of course He had NO sin but He still had to “follow His Father’s rules). This is the reason He immediately left John after being baptized straight to the desert / wilderness— He would be “tested” by none other than Satan himself.  The difference between the Jews and the Messiah is that He would not fail and disobey God! He would be tested for 40 days. These 40 days would NOT be a part of the 2,300 days- this would only include those amount of days He would be declared “Holy” and able to serve as the High Priest. Therefore, the total 6.5 period of 2,340 days less the days He was tested in the wilderness (not yet deemed clean or holy), or 40 days brings us to 2,300 days!

Every time we look for the Messiah we will find Him... if we look for a boogeyman, or AE or Ptolemy, etc., we will also find them (but the verses will only SEEM to match up so long). 

One last comment—- for me this and other enigmatic verses in Daniel (2,300 days, 1,260, 1,290, 1,335 days, times, times, times and 1/2 times, “he” in 9:27, ALL of Chapter 11, 10 kings, little horn, 3 plucked up)... these are the terms that cause so much misinterpretation... If you look for the Messiah in each of them, certainly chapter 11 in total, you will find, in my opinion, a completely different interpretation of Daniel that will change how we interpret Revelation. 

Thank you very much, Charlie 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Charlie744
Correct

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Perhaps I'm just not explaining myself well enough, yet. First, the prepositional phrase includes a clause: the whole prepositional phrase is: "of the prince that shall come"; in Hebrew, "[`am] nagiyd habaa' " which translates literally to "[people] of-prince the-comer." This much merely corrects the fact that "that shall come" refers to the person, the "prince," not the "people."

Therefore, the clause outside the prepositional phrase is "the people ... shall-destroy the-city and-the-sanctuary."

Secondly, remember that chapter and verse divisions are of human origin. They were NOT inspired by God, nor were they planned with any great significance. They are fairly arbitrary and were merely installed to make an indexing system to the Holy Text. While most of the time they aide in understanding the breaks in sentences and paragraphs, they can also cause great harm by dissociation between parts that were randomly broken apart with a verse division or a chapter division.

There are no real divisions between verses 26 and 27. The verbs in verse 27 have no subject noun, if the verse stood alone. Combined with the connective vav in the first word of verse 27, the two verses are ONE sentence in Hebrew, and the subject noun for these verbs is found in verse 26.

The verbs of verse 27 are singular, masculine, third-person and therefore must agree with the subject noun. And, the ONLY such third-person, singular, masculine, subject noun is found in verse 26, the word "Mashiyach" or "Messiah."

Again, in Hebrew, the subject CANNOT be the second noun of the noun construct state! And, the noun construct is "`am nagiyd!" Therefore, "nagiyd" cannot be the subject of the sentence.

Thus, the "push" is that "Mashiyach" MUST be the ONLY real subject of the verbs of verse 27, and the "pull" is that "nagiyd" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs! Between the conclusions of these positive and the negative arguments, the only mutual solution can be that the subject of the verbs of verse 27 is the "Mashiyach" of verse 26.

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that verse 27 says...

1. The Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one Seven,

2. And in the middle of the Seven, the Messiah shall bring an end to offering and sacrifice, 

3. And against the spread-out wing of detestable things, the Messiah shall be One who makes desolate.

And, these were FULFILLED by...

1. Yeshua` confirming the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:11-16; 1 Chronicles 17:10-14) with the Jews for 7 years, as did His ancestor David with the tribe of Yhudah (2 Samuel 2:1-4; 1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27) by submitting to His baptism, when GOD His Father said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17);

2. Yeshua` completing the need for reconciliation with God by His own death, and as the author of Hebrews said,

Hebrews 10:8-16 (KJV)

8 Above when he said,

"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law"; (Psalm 40:6)

9 Then said he,

"Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." (Psalm 40:8)

He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,' saith the Lord, 'I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them'" (Jeremiah 31:33); 

17 And

"'their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.'" (Jeremiah 31:34)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

3a. The "spread-out wing of detestable things" are written in the body of Matthew 23:1-37, and 
3b. Yeshua` the Messiah "made them desolate" in Matthew 23:38.

Furthermore, Matthew 23:39 shows that the Seven was indeed split in two:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Psalm 118:26)"

He quoted verse 39 from this passage:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of this sentence is ...

"Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH" which translates directly to "Blessed the-Comer in-Name of YHWH."

Furthermore, as I've pointed out before, the first two words, Baruwkh haba', are seen at every airport and seaport in Israel in their plural forms, "Baruwkhiym haba'iym":

In a practical sense, the words mean, "Welcome, comers!"

Therefore, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," means "Welcome, comer on the authority of YHWH."

Thus, Yeshua` was saying He wouldn't return until they could WELCOME Him back as YHWH God's Messiah with God's authority! Only three and a half years passed from the start of His ministry, signaled by His baptism, until He was rejected and crucified. The second three and a half years won't happen until He returns, once again offering the children of Israel the Kingdom. The time in between the two halves of the 70th Seven is the Desolation or "the Times of the Gentiles" when "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles." (Luke 21:24)

So, in Acts 1 we read,

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (into the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."

So, Daniel 9:27 is most definitely NOT about the "antichrist!" It is about the Messiah Himself!

If there was no book of Revelation, this would be easy to believe. 
 
Then there is the gap. I did not write it, Daniel did.

Jesus cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, but BEFORE the 70th.
...then the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" takes place
...then the final week

[Diaste]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If there was no book of Revelation, this would be easy to believe. 
 
Then there is the gap. I did not write it, Daniel did.

Jesus cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, but BEFORE the 70th.

Yes.

[Diaste]

IMO, if you have to get into the nuances and minutiae of grammar instead of understanding the context and concepts one understands nothing at all.

[Charlie744]

Iamlamad, regarding your comment “that you might agree IF there were no book of Revelation”, might I say something that I have said a few times in the past month or so, and although I have not received any comments either for or against it (perhaps just ignored and that’s okay too)—- 

—- the Book of Daniel was written, not only well before Revelation, but it was written for the Jews first. It’s messages, especially 9:24 to 9:27 (actually all of 9), are so important to them —- because they spoke to the coming Messiah and all the things that He would both endure and fulfill. 

—- my original intent last July (2019), was to try and understand Revelation, but EVERYONE instructed me to first study Daniel... since Daniel will interpret much of Revelation. This means that Daniel must first be properly interpreted so it will assist in unpacking Revelation. Revelation can not unpack Daniel.

Certainly they must speak the same message-they can not contradict each other but  God put Daniel first... 

If you were to find Retrobyter’s interpretations of 9:26 and 9:27, etc., as I have learned over the past year, then they must be applied to Revelation... meaning, the current and somewhat accepted interpretations of Revelation are not correct because they would indeed contradict Daniel.

We must go back to Daniel- reconcider our interpretations on:

2,300 days, 9:26 & 9:27, times, times, times and 1/2 times, 1,290 and 1,335 days, 10 kings, little horn, 3 plucked up, and all of chapter 11....

Why, because just as the correct interpretation of 9:27 (Messiah in my opinion - which is in agreement with Retrobyter’s), will contradict today’s interpretations of Revelation, the correct interpretations of the above mentioned terms do contradict today’s interpretations of Revelation (again, my opinion of these items). 

Thank you, Charlie 

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If there was no book of Revelation, this would be easy to believe. 
 
Then there is the gap. I did not write it, Daniel did.

Jesus cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, but BEFORE the 70th.
...then the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" takes place
...then the final week

 

23 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes.

 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad (and you, too, Diaste).

The book of Revelation is written with the TANAKH (the "Old Testament") in mind, and Yochanan wrote many quotes from the TANAKH within the book. Some are direct quotations; others are implied quotations. The Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah should NOT be thought of as a REPLACEMENT for the TANAKH'S prophecies. God's Word shall NOT return to Him void! That is, EVERY PROPHECY will be fulfilled, both "Old Testament" and "New Testament."

Mankind has a high tendancy to fall away from the perfection of God's Word. It's just too easy for us to make a mistake when we put God's Word in our own words. That's true on the micro scale when in a Sunday School class, teaching something to others, and on the macro scale when one is translating the whole of God's Word into another language.

While the Revelation may "explain" how certain prophecies of the TANAKH will be fulfilled, the prophecies of the TANAKH also "explain" how the additional prophecies of the Revelation will be fulfilled. The cross checking must be done BOTH WAYS to be successful.

Then, you said, "Then there is the gap. I did not write it, Daniel did." While the messenger showed a gap to Daniel, it was YESHUA` who actually put the gap in the 70 Sevens, but He did so halfway through the 70th Seven. There's no error here: The halfway point through the 70th Seven IS "after the 7 Sevens and the 62 Sevens." And, you ADDED TO the Scriptures when you added "BEFORE the 70th." The Scriptures don't say that, and you're letting "Western chronological order" dictate over the Middle Eastern order by importance! As I've said before, normal Hebrew literature will list major points FIRST, BEFORE introducing the finer details!

Since, by squeeze play, the Messiah had to do the things mentioned in verse 27, then these things had to happen ON or BEFORE His crucifixion! Look at it CAREFULLY again:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy. 

25 "(You, Daniel) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (7 Sevens), and threescore and two weeks (62 Sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And AFTER (A) threescore and two weeks (62 Sevens) shall (Z) Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (These are the major points.)

27 "(a) And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
(b) and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
(c) and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, (These are the minor points which happen ON or BEFORE the Messiah is "cut off".)

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Logically, to say, "Z is after A" does NOT imply that "Z is IMMEDIATELY after A!"

On a mathematical half-timeline, it looks like this:

A(---------Z?------->

The open left-parenthesis means that it does not include A, but it could be ANYWHERE AFTER the A along that infinite time line. One needs ADDITIONAL INFORMATION to pin down when exactly Z will occur!

Since a person normally doesn't do physical things after he or she has died,

Z(--------->

we use an inverse of this statement that looks like this:

<--a---c---b---Z]: Z is 1/2 of the 70th Seven

The closed right-bracket after the Z means that Z is the LAST thing included on this half-timeline. a, b, and c must exist ANYWHERE ON or BEFORE Z, in no particular chronological order, since these points are listed in order of IMPORTANCE.

I truly hope this helps you understand the passage better. DON'T GET STUCK in Western thinking when reading the TANAKH!

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

IMO, if you have to get into the nuances and minutiae of grammar instead of understanding the context and concepts one understands nothing at all.

100% agree with you Diaste. I now have lost interest in discussing this further because it has now become too tedious. So if anyone is interested, I will conclude with my final thoughts And commentary on the 70 weeks of Daniel passage: 

24 Seventy ‘sevens’fn are decreed for your people and your holy city to finishfn transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.fn

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,fn the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.fn The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’fn In the middle of the ‘seven’fn he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templefn he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.fn”

 

spock’s conclusions: 

1. after 69 weeks, the anointed will be cut off....He was, Jesus in around 30 AD

2. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and sanctuary- the ruler was Roman, Titus, and the people were thus Romans. Joel Richardson has tried to show the people (armies) who actually did the destruction were Syrians/ Arabs, but my subsequent research to test that has shown me this is not so....they were Roman citizens and Romans. To be a member of a Legion, you had to be Roman. I think Joel stretched things to fit his agenda (Muslim Antichrist) 

3. War will come and desolations will result......beginning in 66 AD, Rome v Jews and Jews lost. Temple torn down, Jerusalem ransacked, Jews forced to flee the city, hundreds of thousands killed (but all Christians were already gone because they knew better)

4. After the Bar koba war in around 132 AD, practically all Jews were forced to leave the Promised Land. Desolate indeed

5. “He will confirm a covenant with many“....I believe this refers back to a Roman leader, and thus I believe Titus and what happened in 70 AD is a near-far thing that we see often in prophecy.  I suspect we will see another intriguing figure come out of the previous Roman Empire to rise up and confirm a covenant with the many (I’m still leaning toward the many= United Nations, although it could be many nations involved as well) 

6. “For one seven”.......the covenant will be for 7 years- this should remove Jesus’ name if there is any doubt because Jesus doesn’t make a 7 year covenant.....his covenant is 4-ever!  I’m sure some guys will attempt to go into the Hebrew and find excuses to nullify this obvious meaning so have at it. 

7. This covenant confirmation is clearly far future.......we are not talking 70 AD stuff here, we are talking 2nd coming stuff. There is one week, 7 years, remaining for Daniels week to play out. We are currently in a pause. This pause won’t be lifted until the confirmation of a covenant happens....some covenant (Mosaic, Abrahamic, Davidic, ?) being CONFIRMED.  I believe this covenant confirmation will allow for Israel to rebuild their temple and resume sacrifices.

8. “in the middle of the seven”........in the middle of this 7 year covenant, he (Beast of Rev 13) will put an end to such covenant when he announces he is God and is to be worshipped. This is the abomination of desolation Daniel, Jesus, and Paul all reference. Antiochus was a foreshadow of this in around 167 BC. 

9. “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him”......God gave him 42 months to have at it, so that he will have, and then....see you later, enjoy the Lake of Fire for all eternity. You can have Lucifer and the false prophet with you to keep you company. 
 

10. “seventy sevens are decreed for your people (jews) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to FINISH”.....THESE 6 things (won’t repeat them, read v.24 yourself)!  Clearly this can only be finished at Jesus’ second coming  So don’t ever think this passage has already played out and is all in the past. Nope....

 

I hope all of the above is written in spirit and in truth, God is my judge.....

spock

[Moby]

Hi Spock!

Please let me know what you think of this guy's thesis:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Edited August 22, 2020 by Moby

[Spock]

50 minutes ago, Moby said:

Hi Spock!

Please let me know what you think of this guy's thesis:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Greetings Moby,

I assume by your question you are searching for truth and don’t already have your mind made up, because I rarely “debate” this issue because I find such exercise to be futile........so, I will answer your question.....admittedly the title told me all I needed to know to render my judgment, but I did quickly find his reference to Matthew 24:29-31 and he confirmed my thinking......I find this thinking to be wanting, not accurate.....And definitely not for me! 
 

I have said here multiple times, I don’t care what people believe concerning the rapture, pre, mid, post, pre wrath.....but as for me and my house, we will not believe in any rapture AFTER God sends forth his wrath.  I believe for certain his wrath begins at seal 7 so if you put the rapture at the end of the week, that means you are saying the church is going through pretty much all of God’s wrath JUDGMENTS- trumpets and bowls- which I won’t buy.  You or anyone else can buy it.....I will pass. 
 

One point to make....the disciples asked JESUS three questions At the olivet discourse. None of them had to do with the rapture which I’m sure they never knew anything about or even what it is.  Jesus did not answer their questions by talking about something they never heard of.  That passage in Matt 24:29-31 is about his second coming, not his pick up of the church rapture.  Paul was commissioned by God to reveal the mystery of the rapture. 
 

Now I know some believe God can keep one from his wrath by putting a bubble or force field around them while remaining here on earth.  Lol.  Then you might as well rip out 1 thess 4-5 and 2 thess 2, as well as 1 Corinthians 15, from your Bible.....not needed. 
 

I hope this helps,

spock