The Elephant in the New Testament

[Joulre2abba]

23 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

The OP is about speaking in the gift of tongues, and that is what I addressed!

 

No., you didn't set out to give your knowledge verses my knowledge about speaking in tongues. That would have at least been civil. But what you addressed was how wrong you thought I was in what I said. Using ad hominem to do it. No matter how much you might disagree with what I've said there's no reason to be bad tempered about it. It distorts and minimizes whatever 'speaking the truth in love' you might have been attempting to do. Resulting in your words only being a noisy gong.

[SwordMaster]

21 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

No., you didn't set out to give your knowledge verses my knowledge about speaking in tongues. That would have at least been civil. But what you addressed was how wrong you thought I was in what I said. Using ad hominem to do it. No matter how much you might disagree with what I've said there's no reason to be bad tempered about it. It distorts and minimizes whatever 'speaking the truth in love' you might have been attempting to do. Resulting in your words only being a noisy gong.

Youi think very highly of yourself, hence the on-going diatribe. I corrected you, and if you cannot accept correction, then according to Scripture you will never come to have wisdom or understanding in God's Word.

You can keep arguing nonsense points out of your own imagination all you like, but I will no longer address them.

Have a nice day.

[Deadworm]

5 POINTS TO PONDER:

(1) The tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost are identified as "prophesying" (2:17) because some hearers understand some of the babble as their own language.  In that sense, it is distinguished from other manifestations of tongues in Acts, which distinguishes prophesying from speaking in tongues (19:6).

(2) As a Galilean, Peter spoke Aramaic to the crowd, a dialect of Hebrew which Jews in Jerusalem would understand.  Hebrew was the standard language spoken in Jerusalem.

(3) In ancient rabbinic Judaism, the Holy Spirit (not "Ghost" or "Spook!") is the prophetic Spirit.  Therefore, Jews would have expected any claim to receive the Holy Spirit as the ability to utter inspired ecstatic speech.

(4) Unlike Paul, Luke does not identify an initial reception of the Spirit that is a regenerating work of the Spirit!

(5) In 1 Cor. 12:28 the expression "various kinds of tongues" refers to distinctions like tongues of men vs. tongues of angels (13:1; 14:12--literally "zealots of [angelic] spirit"--not "eager for spiritual gifts!") and praying in tongues (14:15) versus delivering messages in tongues that must be interpreted (14:6).

[MissTury]

Wow, I am late to this party, but I am still looking for the elephant!!!

[other one]

1 hour ago, MissTury said:

Wow, I am late to this party, but I am still looking for the elephant!!!

The elephant is people attacking each other rather than the subject being discussed.

[choir loft]

On 9/15/2020 at 1:33 PM, Buddy D. Mouse said:

This will be a thread to look at the DIVERSE KINDS OF TONGUES recorded in the New Testament,

Please - please - please do not not let this thread be about Cessationism (Cessionism) vs Continuationism.

That is not what this OP and thread is about.

I realize that some people think diverse kinds of tongues means ONLY different human languages, well, we will look at tongues in the New Testament.

So much emphasis is put on Day of Pentecost - Acts 2.

I feel there is so much to look at on that day that its practically inexhaustible.

First there is a pre-Pentecost, or Proto-Pentecost passage, when Jesus BREATHED on the disciples and SAID "receive the Holy Spirit";

all but Thomas were present when He said "receive ye the Holy Ghost"

The Bible does not say they DID receive Him then, it does not say they did NOT receive Holy Ghost then, does not say they spoke in tongues at that time, does not say they didn't.

John 20:22

Now we are ready to look at Day of Pentecost.

 

 

It isn't about gifts of God.   It's about the very human desire to SHOW OFF.

I've never attended a Pentecostal church that wasn't full of itself - spiritually speaking.  I've sat in the congregation of quite a few, believe you me.

Without going into the fruitless task of quoting scripture to those who deny it anyway, I can say without error that most Pentecostal congregations do NOT follow scriptural guidelines with regard to their endless desire to be tickled and excited - spiritually speaking.

For the most part these congregations do nothing worthy of divine blessing.  They don't evangelize their community (even though they wear the label 'evangelical'.)  They don't teach scriptural basics (even though they continually quote the Bible like parrots).  They don't generally apply the basics of God's Holy LAW in their lives (as per my personal witness of several Pentecostal pastors who enjoy horizontal refreshment with women who aren't their wives).  Does God look the other way when they do these things?  Are they playing God for a fool?  You tell me.

WE ARE NOT READY TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE DAY OF PENTACOST.  

Why?  

Because WE are only concerned about a tradition that justifies excitement rather than power to change lives. Let's take a REAL look at Pentacost shall we?

The book of Acts (chapters 10 & 11) chronicles the advent of the Holy Spirit among those who believed that Jesus Christ was sent to redeem them from SIN.  Who were those assembled that day?  Most of them were Jews.  Most of them had come to believe that Y'shuah ha-Mashiah (the Hebrew name of the Son of God) was the Anointed One sent from God. (Messiah/Christ means 'annointed one'.) It's been estimated that 33% of Jews at that time believed Jesus/Y'shuah IS messiah.  

It didn't take long for non-Jewish believers to label the event PENTACOST.  It wasn't about a spiritual circus act.  It wasn't about an attitude of spiritual superiority or an agenda of exclusivity. It was about the power of God come to dwell in those who believed He could save them from their SINs.  Today PENTACOST has become a Christian holiday.  Today PENTACOST is symbolic of the gift of GRACE.

Pentacost, the gift of GRACE, arrives on the Jewish calendar 50 days after Easter.  (*)

But there is another holiday that arrives at the same time on the same day.

It's called SHAVOUT, the Feast of Weeks, and it arrives 50 days after Pesach - also called Passover. (*)

Shavout also celebrates the day when God gave His LAW to Moses upon the holy mountain.

Do we see a pattern here?  Is this a coincidence?  I think not.  God is telling us something important about LAW & GRACE.

Shavout (observance of giving God's LAW) happens ON THE SAME CALENDAR DAY as Pesach/Pentacost (observance of giving God's GRACE).

Thus LAW & GRACE are two sides of the same coin - two aspects of God's plan of Redemption.

"I did not come to abolish the LAW.  I came to fulfill it." (Jesus/Y'shuah as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

GRACE does not replace the LAW with licentiousness (or circus entertainment).

LAW does not save anyone (because it tells us forgiveness comes from God not religious pretense).

The LAW tells us we are SINNERS and GRACE gives us power to live lives pleasing to God - by the LAW.

LAW & GRACE work together.

Unfortunately our churches today are more concerned about lawLESSness and spiritual smoke and mirrors than the actual real power of God.  Let's take a REAL look at Pentacost AND Shavout.

Our churches celebrate neither LAW nor the power of GRACE, but have replaced them with empty doctrines of gentile tradition.  The gentile church has followed its Jewish brethren into the same trap of traditionalism.  We are all lost in it together.

Jews claim a traditional observance of LAW will justify them. (Thus a traditionalist Jew can also be an atheist.)

Gentiles claim lawLESS grace alone will save them. (Thus a traditionalist Christian can also live in licentiousness.) 

Both live in error because one denies Grace while the other denies the Law.

If we take an honest look at Pentacost we'll realize it's time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness.  The LAW cannot save and lawLESS Grace is no grace at all.

...they...have the appearance of godliness, but deny its power. Avoid such people. (2 Tim 3:5)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Calendars magnetically attached to our refrigerators or those which stand on our office desks are called Gregorian calendars.  It wasn't adopted into European use until October 1582.  The Gregorian calendar is a solar calendar meaning it tracks one orbit of the earth around the sun as a year.  On the other hand, the Jewish Biblical calendar references a LUNAR year, a collection of orbits of the moon around the earth.  A LUNAR calendar is nearly 13 months per orbit of earth around the sun.  

All ancient calendars were Lunar calendars.  Jewish holidays are tracked on LUNAR calendars, which is why Easter/Passover doesn't occur on the same Gregorian calendar day each year.   It's also one reason why nearly EVERY interpretation of prophecy is WRONG.  They are doomed to failure because their calculations are typically based upon a Gregorian calendar rather than a Lunar calendar.  To add insult to injury modern Jewish calendars track BOTH Gregorian and Lunar systems.

Edited November 29, 2022 by choir loft

[Waggles]

On 11/30/2022 at 1:00 AM, choir loft said:

If we take an honest look at Pentacost we'll realize it's time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness.  The LAW cannot save and lawLESS Grace is no grace at all.

Well that was quite an effort to make Pentecost something completely different to what it actually was (a New Covenant and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit).

And the sign or evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit was and always is speaking in a new tongue > praying in the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 14:2  For who speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men, but to God; for no one heareth; but in spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I thank God my Father and God my Saviour for giving me his indwelling Holy Spirit so that I can pray daily in tongues with full access to the throne of grace.

Jude 1:17  But YE beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18  that they said to you, In the last time mockers shall be, walking after their own ungodly lusts. 19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye [Pentecostal Spirit-filled disciples], beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 

[Dave-regenerated]

On 12/1/2022 at 2:32 AM, Waggles said:

Well that was quite an effort to make Pentecost something completely different to what it actually was (a New Covenant and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit).

And the sign or evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit was and always is speaking in a new tongue > praying in the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 14:2  For who speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men, but to God; for no one heareth; but in spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I thank God my Father and God my Saviour for giving me his indwelling Holy Spirit so that I can pray daily in tongues with full access to the throne of grace.

Jude 1:17  But YE beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18  that they said to you, In the last time mockers shall be, walking after their own ungodly lusts. 19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye [Pentecostal Spirit-filled disciples], beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 

You wrote: "And the sign or evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit was and always is speaking in a new tongue > praying in the Holy Spirit."

 

The trouble with saying this, which is what all of your kind does, is that it is nowhere to be found in the Bible.  You can parrot it and say it that way until the cows come home, but if it isn't in the Bible anywhere, you are fooling yourself and your doctrine is dangerous for other people.

[Willa]

On 9/15/2020 at 6:46 PM, Buddy D. Mouse said:

But a part of our ELEPHANT is the man that speaketh in the spirit to God - that this is something different than a message to the church that needs to be interpreted is significant.

It has been pointed out to me that a message to the church is in fact prophecy and in not the interpretation of a tongue.  The latter is interpreting praise and adoration to God so that the congregation can agree with it.  The people would not need to say amen to a prophecy.  

[Waggles]

In our Pentecostal services we operate the three voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in full accordance with the instructions on orderly worship written by Paul (1Cor 14)

One person will speak in tongues and this is followed by a gift of interpretation. This is done to a maximum of three times.

After this comes three gifts of prophecy [inspired speaking] and again only up to three times.

The gifts of tongues and interpretation in a church service are distinct from the Bible evidence or sign following believers when they are filled with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Waggles