The Elephant in the New Testament

[JimmyB]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:31 PM, SwordMaster said:

Nope, what you are describing are those who like to pray out loud in tongues like Paul says NOT to do. They think the words and say them, that is different from the gift of tongues because it is solely the Spirit speaking. You are using physical arguments here from the flesh, not what Scripture gives to us.

 

Wrong again, that is completely flesh and not spirit. It appears that you have never heard or witnessed the Spirit speaking through someone in tongues and interpretations...it appears that you have only witnessed people speaking in tongues and giving fake interpretations out of their own mind and flesh. The gift of tongues and interpretation is none of that...it is the Spirit speaking directly through that indiviadual(s).

Wrong again...just more flesh speaking here. Paul does not say that you can understand what you are saying in your prayer language; he says that you can have a "knowing" of who you are praying for, but not what you are praying for in the prayer language. That is what we usually call having a burden to pray, but we are not told what we are praying for...that's God's business.

Again...wrong! Scripture tells us very plainly that some people's spiritual language is angelic, and some are earthly languages...and we have this evidence throughout the church where the Spirit is actually allowed to speak through us. Sadly, many so-called pentecostals have social clicks in their churches where if you do not speak in tongues, you are not a good christian.

It sounds like those kinds of churches are the only experience that you have, because most of what you have stated is not Scriptural, but wholly from the flesh.

Blessings.

 

 

 

Where does Paul say to not speak in tongues outside of church?

I speak in tongues all the time, or more properly, the Holy Spirit in me prays in a language that I do not understand with my mind.

It is obvious that you lack the faith to believe in this gift from God, but it makes no sense to argue against those of us who have it.

[Marilyn C]

Now we have to be careful not to separate the Lord, the Head of the Body by making the Holy Spirit the focus. So, what really happened.

When Jesus ascended to the Father, the Father made Him Head of the Body, (which was yet to form). (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Then the Father gave the Holy Spirit to His Son who sent Him to infill the believers with His divine nature and place them in His Body. (John 16: 12 - 15,  2 Peter 1: 4    1 Cor. 12: 18)

Thus, on the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and indwelt the believers, as directed and promised. (Acts 2: 16 - 18) Christ the Head directed the Holy Spirit to enable the believers to praise God in all the different languages of the visitors at that festival. (Acts 2: 5 - 12,  John 16: 14)

Then Christ the Head of the Body directed His Holy Spirit to empower Peter to speak boldly of Christ, His death and resurrection. Concluding with -

`Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. ` (Acts 2: 36)

Let us continue to exalt the Lord as Head of His Body, who is directing and maturing it till He comes.

  

 

[Waggles]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now we have to be careful not to separate the Lord, the Head of the Body by making the Holy Spirit the focus. So, what really happened.

The NT and the gospel is ALL ABOUT the Holy Spirit because there is no separation between God the Father and God the Son and the Spirit of God. You CANNOT have Christ Jesus without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the presence and power of God dwelling within a Pentecostal disciple to overcome sin and the world.

Praying in tongues = praying in the Holy Spirit and empowers the daily life and walk of the Spirit-filled Christian and ALSO delivers many blessings and healings and miracles.

Luke 24:49  And lo, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry YE in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high.

Acts 2:32  This Jesus did God raise, whereof we all are witnesses. 
33  Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which YE both see and hear.

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said to him, If any love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 
John 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Romans 8:9  But YE are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that God’s Spirit dwelleth in you. But if any hath not Christ’s Spirit he is none of his. 
10  And if Christ is in you, the body is indeed dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Jude 1:17  But YE beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 
18  that they said to you, In the last time mockers shall be, walking after their own ungodly lusts. 
19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 
21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

1Cor 14:2  For who speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men, but to God; for no one heareth; but in spirit he speaketh mysteries.

[choir loft]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:32 PM, Waggles said:

Well that was quite an effort to make Pentecost something completely different to what it actually was (a New Covenant and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit).

And the sign or evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit was and always is speaking in a new tongue > praying in the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 14:2  For who speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men, but to God; for no one heareth; but in spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I thank God my Father and God my Saviour for giving me his indwelling Holy Spirit so that I can pray daily in tongues with full access to the throne of grace.

Jude 1:17  But YE beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18  that they said to you, In the last time mockers shall be, walking after their own ungodly lusts. 19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye [Pentecostal Spirit-filled disciples], beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 

My attempt to explain the correlation between LAW & GRACE as divinely demonstrated in the twin observances of Pentacost and Shavout seem to have been rejected by someone who doesn't believe in or read the Bible.

Rather, the cheap circus theatrics of tongues and false prophecy uttered in churches that put more emphasis upon spiritual demagoguery than Biblical attestations seems to be the accepted norm.

The Bible warns against false prophets and idolatry, which in essence comprises much of the collected ceremony of certain congregations.  It certainly does much to dispute such activities.

Tongues is NOT the ipso facto demonstration of Christian conversion.

The Bible says Baptism fulfills that ceremonial expression, not tongues.

Indeed tongues is more similar to the ecstatic dancing of Muslim Dervishes than of Christian observance.  

Many devoted disciples of Christ do not express their faith in this manner.  

Are you condemning them because they don't adopt your definition of cheap theatrics?  Must I remind you that Our Lord blesses them as well as you claim He blesses you - or are you excluding millions that don't utter nonsensical verbosity?  

Must I remind you that many of the heretical notions of the post-modern church arose from Pentecostalism?

To each its own, Paul writes in Romans 14.  If eating meat and drinking wine floats your boat, then enjoy it.  But don't dare insist that this is the way all churches must act or behave or believe.  That is the SIN of pride and invites disaster both personal and corporate.  

My discussion focused upon aspects of the LAW and GRACE which are not usually addressed among churches that now believe God loves licentiousness.  HE doesn't.  Pentacost is not, as you say, completely different. It isn't different because it's linked to LAW.  It's enhanced by that association.

GRACE is given that one may fully and completely live life pleasing to God, according to His LAW.  

Pentecost did not arrive in town like a circus act of years past - parading its prideful attitude over all others like a column of trained elephants.  It is the sign of power to live according to God's Holy LAW, not an occasion to promote QUESTIONABLE spiritual hubris.

In many Pentecostal/Holiness congregations I've visited the act of tongues is entirely faked - an expression of <false> spiritual attitudes over other members of the same congregation they try to impress. So too are their 'interpretations', which in many cases is given by the preacher because few want to attempt the effort of pretending to be a <false> prophet which is condemned by scripture.

I suspect you've missed my point entirely.  Please review my past posts to learn what I've been trying to teach.  Try to leave your tongues, your false prophecy and your private ceremonial occupation at the door.  It will make the process of learning much easier.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited December 5, 2022 by choir loft

[Waggles]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:34 AM, Dave-regenerated said:

The trouble with saying this, which is what all of your kind does, is that it is nowhere to be found in the Bible.  You can parrot it and say it that way until the cows come home, but if it isn't in the Bible anywhere, you are fooling yourself and your doctrine is dangerous for other people.

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
8  The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one born of the Spirit. 

Mark 16:16  Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned. 
17  And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;

Acts 2:3  And tongues as if of fire being distributed appeared to them; and it sat upon each of them. 
4  And all were filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all that heard the word. 
45  And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, who came with Peter, because that on the nations also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. 
46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 
47  Can anyone forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?

Acts 19:5  And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 
6  And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1Cor 14:2  For who speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men, but to God; for no one heareth; but in spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cor 14:14  For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 
15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1Cor 14:21  In the law it is written, [that] By strange-tongued and by lips of strangers will I speak to this people; and not even thus will they hearken to me, saith the Lord. (prophecy given by Isaiah 28:11)

Jude 1:19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 
21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 

At the time of the Reformation and other subsequent reformist awakenings speaking in tongues was referred to as "ecstatic utterances." 

[Omegaman 3.0]

and here, I never figured out just what the elephant was!

[choir loft]

On 12/5/2022 at 11:33 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

and here, I never figured out just what the elephant was!

Pentecostalism holds as a primary dogma the utterance of noises other than one's native language.  

It's not an elephant in the New Testament.  It's an example of a crop of religious madness originally grown in California.

Some people think the gibberish that comes out of their mouths is a spiritual gift from God.  Others suppose the tradition that issues from the Pentecostal-Holiness churches to be absurd -  illogical and spiritually prideful, not to mention unBiblical (In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul insisted it be regulated and/or suppressed).

Consider that the Pentecostal-Holiness moment began during the Azusa Street Revival in Los Angeles, California.  It was inspired and directed by Mr. Charles Parham and William J. Seymour NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT.  

It began in America in the year 1900, NOT in Jerusalem 50 days after Christ's crucifixion.  

It wasn't founded by Jesus Christ or His spirit, but by an itinerant faith healer and a frustrated Methodist preacher.  

The Azusa Street Revival lasted three years.  At the end of that time the popularity of the emotional worship services began to spread across the nation.   Quite a few seemed to have been bored to tears with their church worship services and were as hungry for an emotional break in 1900 as we appear to be in the 21st century.  

The difference is that today we entertain our congregations with Vegas style production numbers complete with rock bands (or tracks) and up-beat (overly humanistic) tunes.  The presentation has changed, but manipulation of the masses hasn't.

"Nobody goes to church to see a man on fire for God.  They go to watch him burn." (Bob Harrington, Chaplain of Bourbon Street)

There's no elephant in the New Testament because nobody really reads the thing any more.  The aforementioned elephant is simply an old debate that's as dusty and tired as the people who believe it means something.

Look it up, boys and girls.  Learn something new today.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by choir loft

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, choir loft said:

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I see cessationist hollering is alive and well. Sad.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit did not begin in Azusa Street in 1906. Americans love to take the credit for many things. But the outpouring of the latter rain started in the 1880s and came from the divine healing revivals of those times.

During the Reformation and in the succeeding faith revivals speaking in tongues was referred to as "ecstatic utterances" - Martin Luther spoke in tongues.

There was an enormous and very famous Pentecostal revival in Wales in 1903 as well, referred to as the great Welsh Revival.

But the children of Rome still preach against the gospel as usual denying the work and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Jude 1:17  But YE beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 
18  that they said to you, In the last time mockers shall be, walking after their own ungodly lusts. 
19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 
21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 
22  And on some have mercy, who are in doubt; and 
23  save, snatching them out of fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

1Cor 14:39  So then, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

[choir loft]

On 12/13/2022 at 5:29 PM, Waggles said:

I see cessationist hollering is alive and well. Sad.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit did not begin in Azusa Street in 1906. Americans love to take the credit for many things. But the outpouring of the latter rain started in the 1880s and came from the divine healing revivals of those times.

During the Reformation and in the succeeding faith revivals speaking in tongues was referred to as "ecstatic utterances" - Martin Luther spoke in tongues.

There was an enormous and very famous Pentecostal revival in Wales in 1903 as well, referred to as the great Welsh Revival.

But the children of Rome still preach against the gospel as usual denying the work and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Jude 1:17  But YE beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 
18  that they said to you, In the last time mockers shall be, walking after their own ungodly lusts. 
19  These are they who make separations, having only soul, not having Spirit. 
20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 
21  keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 
22  And on some have mercy, who are in doubt; and 
23  save, snatching them out of fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

1Cor 14:39  So then, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

From the historic Biblical perspective one is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, not a cheap circus act.

Twist all the scripture you want, but God's Word always points to logical meaningful inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not semi-conscious emotional works.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited December 20, 2022 by George
Removed some imagery from the post that was unnecessary.

[Waggles]

On 12/18/2022 at 5:42 AM, choir loft said:

What I see being discussed here is that tongues saves a person, that one isn't a Christian unless one's mouth is vomiting nonsense.

From the historic Biblical perspective one is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, not a cheap circus act.

Twist all the scripture you want, but God's Word always points to logical meaningful inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not semi-conscious emotional works.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Well you can holler all you want, but scripture triumphs opinion.

And the NT - the gospel - the ekklesia- salvation - is Pentecostal.

The epistles are written to the one and only Pentecostal faith and church of the NT.

There are no alternatives in scripture. That comes much later with the rise of the Church of Rome.

The Reformation was just that a reforming movement against the Church of Rome which failed to bring the gospel back to its origins of Pentecostal faith. The Lutherans and others even kept infant baptism.

I thank God everyday that I read and believed the scriptures unto salvation and that He called me out of the world to be born from above by water and his Spirit, with the Bible given sign of speaking in a new tongue as Jesus promised believers.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 
n3:6  What is born of the flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
n3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
n3:8  The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is everyone born of the Spirit.