What is a "soul?"

[David1701]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:41 PM, Josheb said:

No, there will be no shifting of the onus here. A claim was made and I have simply asked for supporting scripture. It is good, right, and valid that I make such a request. It's not okay to ignore or avoid and answer and expect others to answer questions when no parity has been provided. 

Matt. 12:39,40 (VW)

39 But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Lord has told us how long he was in the tomb - three days and three nights.

Even if his Spirit had not left his body, he would still, simultaneously, have been able to preach to people in Hades, with his body still in the tomb, because he is omnipresent, just as he has always been (but not his physical body).

John 3:13 (WEB) No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven. 

Matt. 18:20 (WEB) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.” 

That the spirit leaves the body at death is standard, biblical teaching.

Eccl. 12:6,7 (WEB)

6 before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the spring, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 

John 19:30 (WEB) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished.” He bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. 

Quote

 

What we know from scripture directly is that his body was laid in the tomb and three days later it was gone. Scripture is largely silent on what may or may not have happened to that body or what that body may or may not have done.... but scripture does tell us he did not see decay. Absent a spirit and any specific intervention on God's part a de-spirited body would certainly have seen decay. 

 

Is there scripture supporting that claim or not? If so, then please post it. If the claim is inferential then do please make that case. Otherwise.... 

.

 

God specifically promised that Jesus' body would not decay, as you said.  As soon as someone dies physically, the body starts to decay, so this was definitely an intervention by God.

Edited December 3, 2020 by David1701

[Charlie744]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Genesis 7:21-22
"All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;  of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died."

Genesis 7:13-16
"On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark,  they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, all sorts of birds.  So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.  Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him."

Yes, humans are unique, but the breath of life God gave humans is the same breath of life he gave all living creatures. 

 

 

 

Now I can see MY problem- the Bible I have been using needs to be replaced! I simply can not pull that kind of information from all the colorful pictures in it. I have got to get a Bible with more words in it. ?

Joking aside, I completely enjoy and appreciate you and others who have the knowledge and talent to bring the most appropriate verses forward (and so quickly which obviously speaks to one’s intimacy with the Scriptures) in addressing these topics!! 

As I mentioned a few times before, although I realize my responses can not match or command the kind of attention that many others command) that, unfortunately, I am new or rather late to this party. I have wasted so much of my life on the secular world with God just making my top 20 priority list. I missed so much and it is absolutely frightening to realize that at any time in my life, that had I died I would never be with Him... The Grace of God!!!

But WITHOUT trying to make Scripture speak my words or meanings, I will always attempt to understand the underlying message... which may not always be sitting with perfect penmanship along the provided blue line. 

Anyway, I DO understand and thank you for these verses but perhaps ( and this is where I may get in trouble some times), the verses above clearly tell us that ALL life that breathes are included in the Ark and ALL life that breathes will die - no argument here, but I don’t think this rules out the possibility (for me, so much more), that He breathed something so special into Adam, and this separated us from other breathing life. I believe His Spirit was breathed into us and that Spirit was His Holiness. It was never intended to be apart from us (again, this also gave Lucifer the hate and anger needed for him to want us to fail and die... he was never given The Spirit or Holiness OF God. He was MADE beautiful and superior to anything or anyone previously MADE but he was not created in His image - something no one can begin to understand its meaning and value - His Holiness. Power, omnipotent, omnipresence, etc., those we have a good understanding- Holiness - impossible to grasp... but Lucifer realized what it was and that he was not given it!  

So this special and very personal breathing or kiss into Adam was His Spirit that  would return to Him once we had fallen and died (physically). This was not merely air coming out of a tire, nor was it the Soul returning to God. The Soul ceased to “be” when we failed (the fall). We did not die- we were still a breathing life but The Spirit if God could not be present with our sin... it had to return to God. And His Spirit is not something that dies or is lost or discarded. His Spirit can never die but we gave it away by sinning. Animals are not given this gift from God (neither was Lucifer). 

So yes these Scriptures tell us we (man, animals and fish are breathing life) but God has done something so special with man - He breathed His Holy Spirit into us).

Well, this has gone on much to long and I do apologize for this but this is yet another example of how folks in this forum can more adequately explain and express their understanding and knowledge in a very few words as opposed to this kind of lengthy, clumsy manner of mine. Unfortunately, this “industry”, if you will, is or has been foreign to me almost all of my life... yet I am able to sit in this highly educated classroom with graduate students and PHD’s and be allowed to interact, ask fumbling questions and learn what they see, feel and understand... 

Best wishes always, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

And when Paul says to be out of the body is to be with the Lord? Do you read this to mean an instant or near-instant move from earth to heaven? And if so is this solely as a consequence of Calvary?

Ok and this is a verse that I believe (and once again almost completely in the minority), I think this has been and continues to be misinterpreted - and the more we hear something... constantly repeated, it becomes “gospel” (no pun intended).

 I believe Paul is telling us that he would “rather” be with the Lord and not to say that we will be with the Lord when once we die. I hope I am remembering the verses you are referring to... but if so, just about everyone quotes this “absence Friday m the body, present with the Lord”. But I believe they leave out the words  “rather be” with the Lord... and the meaning is totally altered. 

I will go back and read these verses again but look forward to your responses on this since you are more familiar and nearer to them .. Charlie 

[Charlie744]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question. I'm asking about the temporal differences between earth and heaven. If Jesus is speaking to the thief from the perspective of this side of the grave and how time works on this side of the grave then your position may have some veracity (although I'm inclined to disagree) but if Jesus is speaking of "today" from the perspective of the other side of the grave or his existence outside of time and space as a member of the Godhead then there is potentially a huge pile of stuff indicating your interpretation is incorrect. 

Do you think heaven measures a "day" by one rotation of the earth relative to its sun?

Thank you for your patience and consideration! 

First, I am sure there is no such thing as time in heaven. Time is just as real and tangible (unusual concept to apply with time), as a rock or a tree, etc. Time had to be created by God no less than the earth, the stars and the entire universe and everything in it. 

Consequently, He is not attempting to convey to this thief that he will be with Him TODAY... there is no today in Heaven... there is only now or only is... 

So Jesus is telling this thief today (right now) I am telling you that your faith has indeed saved you and you will be with Me in Heaven. The only importance or purpose for saying or using this word “today” is on THIS side of the grave. This is what the thief needs to hear...it is important he hears this today (but it most assuredly is also meant to eliminate or attempt to eliminate OUR fears of physical death). 

This is such an amazing topic... but when I attempt to understand it’s meaning I go back to the verses in the OT that speak of the dead know nothing, there are sleeping (I believe Jesus referred to Lazarus as “sleeping” and not dead as Mary / Martha and all the others asserted (4 days). Lazarus was not with Jesus during those 4 days but was sleeping in the earth. Now he will certainly be with Him at the resurrection but not before... same with the thief - he would not be with Jesus that day.. Jesus would Himself not be resurrected for 3 days. 

Well, rambled on enough..  look forward to your thoughts! Charlie 

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, rhomphaeam said:

Charlie old bean, you should have been a diplomat. Wonderful!

I am sure you meant that as a compliment... I have never thought a diplomat as being sincere ?. But as with Josheb, I would welcome hearing from you and more than a few others that have contributed to this topic and get their opinions/thoughts... for me, this is like I am able to he the only student in the clsss and there are at least 15 PHD’s available and interested in sharing their time and knowledge... AND they are not only willing to entertain my comments but I have NO tuition invoice!

PS. It doesn’t matter if your responses are for or against... 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Now put the pieces together. 

No today in heaven means that day the thief would be in heaven. Three days in the tomb here on earth: no time at all from the divine perspective. 

I hope I understand your thoughts here... 

I agree there is no time in Heaven but the thief has to BE in heaven to experience this.. Jesus was not to in Heaven at / after His crucifixion- He was in the grave for 3 days before His resurrection. The thief will experience timelessness when he is resurrected at the end of time.  

The word “today” has no meaning or purpose once we are on the other side. The thief will not awake and comprehend that this is the “today” that Jesus was telling me about... That He was right, I would be with Him “today”.... 

Jesus would not return Himself to the Father for another 40 days or so ... the thief will have died and would have NO longer a conception of time. His next awakening would be in the presence of Jesus Himself. But time will continue on for all not in the grave and time will not be destroyed until His second coming. We are not aware of time when we sleep but we awake 8 hours later... this is how I see our death ... and how we don’t experience the passing of time while in the grave. 

Even Jesus subjected Himself to the laws of time while here on earth. Even He honored (not necessarily the best choice of words), time by staying 3 days/nights in the grave telling us that at death all sleep until they are called by God to come out of the grave (Jesus showed exactly this when He commanded Lazarus to “come forth or come out”. Until we hear His voice we are to be sleeping quietly in the grave not aware of anything. Only Jesus could call Himself out of the grave. We have to wait or sleep softly until we hear the loud call of His voice.. 

Hope this makes some sense and addresses your latest comment... again, I can not provide all the verses that might speak directly for this opinion but this is what I have come away with from my readings ... 

Thanks again for staying with this .. I do understand you have a different understanding... Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Now put the pieces together. 

No today in heaven means that day the thief would be in heaven. Three days in the tomb here on earth: no time at all from the divine perspective. 

Josheb, I keep thinking about this topic and your latest few responses... I would like to add another thought...and it concerns the Lazarus scene.

Jesus was informed that Lazarus had died, but Jesus responded that Lazarus was just asleep. When Martha reaches Jesus she told Him that her brother had indeed died but Jesus told her he would live again in the resurrection... I always thought of His response as being somewhat cold or perhaps not as sympathetic as He could have been. But He is clearly telling her and us that Lazarus was sleeping and will arise at the resurrection- he is not in heaven. 

Then Mary arrives to meet with Jesus and she makes the EXACT same comment to Him that her sister Martha made (this must be meaningful since God does not do coincidences or random anything- every Word has been handpicked)!

But after Mary’s comment Jesus responds just the opposite to that of Martha’s.. This time He is quite sorrowful and He wepted! 

So, perhaps this scene is informing us a few things:

1) An understanding of what occurs after death, and,

2) His character.

Regarding what happens after our death is we do go to a sleep and are unaware of everything until He calls for us, 

2) That Jesus has two distinct  reactions and responses to the EXACT same comment from the two sisters:     

a) His first response/reaction comes from a person who sees the big picture. He understands that his death is temporary and he will be with Him again- He is not worried ... just wait and see how happy he will be when I call him out of the grave. The response / reaction with Mary is just the opposite. Here Jesus is reacting as WE do when a loved one has passed. 

Jesus is showing us how He also hates death and grieves at the lose of a loved one— He is also showing us that He is a MAN and faces all the same things we face. His first reaction/ response shows us that He is also God — He sees the end from the beginning and knows the outcome at the time of His second coming. 

God is both fully man (Martha), and fully God (Mary), and reveals what happens at our death and what happens at our resurrection —- and those two events do not occur at the same time— they both occur under the laws of time and then, those with God will never have to experience time again. 

Charlie

 

[enoob57]

The ideal is not that the created essence was a necessity it was just a way in which God decided to bring us into being.... Point in fact the created essence is just one of the myriad of possibly endless ways God could reveal Himself. We know for sure by Scripture that everything here and all it encompasses will pass away and all things, whatever that shall be, will be made completely new. So this whole tying of the body together with spirit and soul is moot... There exists an eternity past where God 'IS' Spirit and that is the necessary- untethered from what we have began in... so all this discourse has no purpose for it is written
 

1 Cor 2:9-10

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
KJV

As the outcome will be exactly as it is written- we cannot know now

 

Rev 21:3-6

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
KJV
 

[Alive]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

I've missed it. Where?

In the verse just before mine, you reversed Peter and Paul. Check it out.

:-)

[enoob57]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Lazarus (and every other human ever brought back from the dead) was resuscitated, not resurrected.

No this cannot be correct because there was rot.... we can resuscitate but- not regenerate then resuscitate.