What part of us goes to be with God in death?

[Regenerated-Adult]

2 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Yes, I understand that the body is dead and that the soul goes back to the Lord.
I also understand that the bible uses sleeping for being dead as a metaphor.

The thing is, I believe that we won't be "waiting" while being dead or while being back to the Lord. Asleep as said in the bible, I understood it as being unaware of the passing of time. If no time has passed from the point of view of the deceased born again believer. The moment he dies is the moment he will be meeting the Lord in the air.

About Moses and Elijah meeting Jesus on the mountain, that is certainly a good point. I am aware that I may be wrong. And I am still searching and praying for the truth.

So on the other hand. If the souls of born again believers goes to the current heaven, waiting. How to explain being asleep as described by the bible?

 

The Bible is progressive revelation.  The OT Jews had sheol.  The NT Jews have heaven and hell.  Sleep is a metaphor of course, probably meaning that there could be unawareness for some in the afterlife.  It's an apt metaphor, because we experience it every time we go to sleep - oblivion of consciousness for some time.  So I would say it probably refers to some type of unawareness.  

And certainly not a popular view amongst mainstream Christians, my personal opinion and view is that meeting the Lord in the air is not the "rapture" but what happens to every human being in Christ when they die, as you can see Stephen had an NDE when he was stoned to death.

[enoob57]

2 Cor 5:8

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
 

[Riverwalker]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

If they are alrdy in heaven its no use to raise the dead n then rapture them as per 1 Thes 4:16.

Resurrection is when we get our new bodies. and we live on the new earth, Rev 22

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

2 Cor 5:8

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
 

Thank you, it means that we are not afraid or we do not live with the fear of death.

For we know that what is lay forwards for us is a life with the Lord where he is.

In our times many people are help with transplants, and for that reason I have given permission to the authorities if they could help someone in this way it is fine with me.

Better if my left behind organs can help someone than been eaten by the worm.

Sorry I added that, hope to open the door for someone to walk out of that closet of fear, regarding these matters. 

I will not been needing this "body" anymore.

For Jesus Christ was different, to have his body back it matter, he had to prove who he is.

It has to do with a lot of things, one of them is to prove his identification. 

It a positive identification, that he came back from the dead to live forever.

This is proof that he is the Christ of God, the Son of David who lives for ever. 

No more heirs to the Throne as Jesus died without having any physical descendants. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

42 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

Resurrection is when we get our new bodies. and we live on the new earth, Rev 22

That will never happen not according to Revelation 22:

Do you have anything else to support your statement

Sorry about that, it is not a Salvation issue though. 

Why do you want to live on earth again, your Inheritance is in Heaven.  

Many things have change in the underworld and in Heaven and on the Earth.

Can you not seen them? Can you not tell? 

 

[Starise]

Interesting to see how different minds pick apart the details of this subject.

The example of Jesus resurrection is both the best example of how we hope we will one day be and a not so good present example though there are similarities. Just as he was raised from the dead we will be raised from the dead.

Similarities:

- Jesus was raised, we will be raised.

- There was an interim time when His body was in the grave. 3 days. Men also have an interim time in the grave.

Differences:

- The resurrections of the dead in Christ are collective and total based on a longer interim. If you die before the second coming you will be in that group if you are a believer. Collective is different. The time interim between death and resurrection is different.

- Most human bodies will have completely decomposed. Jesus body was only in the grave 3 days. We could say He didn't decompose but I don't think this would be medically accurate. Your body's cells begin to decompose very shortly after death. The other argument is if we will rise again the SAME way as Jesus, then He was probably beginning to see physical decomposition.Some may disagree on that point and if you have Bible verses in context I'll agree.

-If we go to be with God immediately after death, we apparently won't be in our final state as Jesus was after His resurrection. This points to some sort of an interim state. An in between place where we aren't yet in our new body. OTOH if our soul and body are in unconscious stasis we are not immediately with God so there is no need to attempt an "interim" explanation.

Further Thoughts:

- If we are indeed absent from our bodies and present with the Lord, then would not our transition to the presence of God in another form be considered a form of  resurrection prior to the formal new body physical resurrection from the grave if they don't happen simultaneously? If you believe this, in one sense we are immediately "resurrected". In this view we have to make sense of the rest of the scriptures, so some believe we go back to our new resurrected bodies at the end when the Lord returns. Until then we are in "soul storage" either blissfully at peace in a kind of sleep or in "heaven" with God and  loved ones waiting for the body upgrade. I'll be honest, this view seems very inefficient for a God who is very efficient. Going up there, waiting, coming back to a body...wow. That's quite a ride there. Neither do I understand even part of what God does, so if this is how He does it who am I to question it? My analytical human side wants to say he does it all in one efficient process. How exactly I can't tell.

- People were raised from the dead and "appeared" to others when Jesus died. Imagine Lazurus multipled only I'm not so sure these people who were raised were in  physical bodies like Lazurus. I think they might have had the new physical/spiritual bodies. 

MATT 27:52-53

52 The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…

Extra Biblical Researched thoughts-

These are just my thoughts. No proof exists either way. These thoughts are the result of my research so far.

-Near death experiencers seem to point to an awareness outside of the body after death. In these reports they are apparently mobile ( can see the top of the hospital building or themselves out of their body). Admittedly some of these are hoaxes. I don't believe all of these reports are hoaxed. Neither do I believe it's some sort of an after effect the brain dying.

- The devil's army is deceptive. I would argue they also know things. Have knowledge they took from their heavenly status while there. When the New Agers talk about vibrational energy it isn't all smoke and mirrors. Everything you can see is made up of an atomic structure. Things we see as solid are really just very dense collections of atoms. I believe certain vibrations, frequencies and other factors I'm not fully aware of have the potential to  navigate through our reality. This helps to explain how Jesus could be solid, yet walk through walls. In that new body He had complete command of atomic and molecular structure with ability to manipulate them. To us it's a looks like a solid object. To him it's more like a mist you pass through.

- In my opinion not all spirits go immediately away. It would seem through my research that some hang around for a bit, even if it's just a reorientation or to say one last goodbye. I have read much of this but I'll use one example- After a serious car accident resulting in a fatality an EMT is the first on the accident scene that occurs in the late evening. There is a woman who was involved in a serious car accident. There is nothing the EMT can do. The EMT spots a person walking around the scene seemingly disoriented saying something like, " I can't believe it, I just can't believe it. I'm dead." Then she realizes the person looks just like the person in the car. The EMT decides to go see if she can help. The subject has disappeared never to be seen again.

- I have a rather grim view of self murder, suicide. The breach of God's timeline for their death might introduce other problems. Like them hanging around for a long long time down here. I base this on frequent hauntings in places known to be suicide locations.Same could be said for murder sites.

God said to Cain, " The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to Me from the ground." Gen 4:10

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

26 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated : " your soul is placed with Abraham in gehena it means Jesus has placed you in safety at temporary dwelling."

I'm sorry, but there is no Biblical basis for the above statement.        The Bible teaches quite literally that to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

I agree. That's where I would want to be. Is it possible that there is a " place of silence " for the unsaved soul ? Not sure, would want to study that. 

Why do we have to talk about that when we know that at the time of death we all have a Judge waiting for us to appeared before him.

First to be Judge according to our faith in Jesus Christ because Heaven is the Inheritance of Jesus Christ. 

Anyone who died with the refusal to believe in Jesus Christ, you can tell for your self, can he have a place in Heaven with his name waiting for him.

He the Judge person will tell you that he cannot on account of believing in Jesus Christ, he will tell you that he/she knows that he/she has refused to believe for his/her own reasons.

That person he has to go some place away from God.

No matter how one may call it. In full conscience of why as not to have any complaints as to why he/she is there. 

A matter to look up is that many through out the times are dying without faith in Jesus Christ and without the denial of faith in Jesus Christ. 

How Jesus Christ proposed to himself to deal with that big group? 

When it has been said that everyone before he/she appeared before Jesus Christ must have heard the Gospel and be Judge accordingly, according to their faith in Christ or according to their denial.

The question is , would Jesus Christ make it possible for them to hear the Gospel and decide after their death, when they are out of the body?

As it happened before when Jesus Christ preach the Gospel to all who had died before him when he went in the heart of the earth where they were kept, right after his death on the Cross. 

Beginning from the Bossom of Abraham and to the rest after them.

Jesus Christ preached the Gospel to the dead and gave us the commission to preach the Gospel to the living.

How is it going to happen to them this time. And where are they kept for that reason.?

[Dennis1209]

22 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated : "The story of poor Lazarus n the rich man told us that Abraham is in gehena n there is a gap dividing the good n the sinners."

 Lk. 16:19-31 is most definitely an allegory or a parable. This is why many become confused. Abraham, along with all who died in Christ, are with Him in heaven. Please, if there is any place in the Bible where saved souls are NOT with Jesus I would like to see it. 

I read that the soul of the unsaved is destroyed at death, because they have not the gift of eternal life. 

Hello Walter, I'll share my view if I may.

There's the Old Covenant and the New Covenant; before the Cross and after the Cross (the Good News). Under the Old Covenant and the Law, people looked "forward" to the Cross, and we look back at the Cross. Under the Old Covenant and the "Law"; innocent blood (animal) had to be sacrificed to temporarily cover sin. The "sin debt" had not been fully paid until Jesus died on the Cross. 

Until that debt was paid by Jesus, sin is not allowed in Heaven and that debt had not yet been paid. There were two sides of Hades, Abraham's bosom (Paradise) where Lazarus went, and the other side divided by a great gulf (pain & torment side) which the 'rich man' resided. Paradise is not Heaven, as with the criminal on his cross next to Jesus:

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

Paradise: The Greek word used here, paradeisos, appears in the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the OT) to describe the garden of Eden (Gen 2:9; 13:10).

In Jewish literature from the centuries before Jesus, paradeisos is used in reference to the blissful place of the righteous dead (Testament of Levi 18:10–11; Psalms of Solomon 14:3; 1 Enoch 17–19; 60:8; 61:12). By the first century AD, the word likely became synonymous with “heaven,” as reflected in 2 Cor 12:4 and Rev 2:7.

At this point, Jesus had not ascended to Heaven to present Himself as our Savior, sacrificial Lamb and advocate. John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.  

Our Lord Jesus went to the paradise side (Abraham's Bosom), and cleaned out the Paradise side and took them to Heaven, because the sin debt had been paid in full.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

To answer your question; "If there's any place in the Bible where saved souls are not with Jesus." I propose Ephesians 4:8-10 above.

There's no soul sleep. When one looks upon a dead body, it looks like they are asleep. It's not a metaphor; that's what they actually look like; asleep, thus the terminology. 

All our hermeneutics are different, this is just mine.

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

10 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

Resurrection is when we get our new bodies. and we live on the new earth, Rev 22

The resurrected saints n the living saints shall be gathered as the great multitude of Rev 7 :16 which says they will no longer hungry or thirsty (new body) its not in New Jerusalem because the rapture of 1 Thes 4:16 take the resurrected death from gehena to heaven (with the living saints) be4 the great tribulation.

[Frits]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hello Walter, I'll share my view if I may.

There's the Old Covenant and the New Covenant; before the Cross and after the Cross (the Good News). Under the Old Covenant and the Law, people looked "forward" to the Cross, and we look back at the Cross. Under the Old Covenant and the "Law"; innocent blood (animal) had to be sacrificed to temporarily cover sin. The "sin debt" had not been fully paid until Jesus died on the Cross. 

Until that debt was paid by Jesus, sin is not allowed in Heaven and that debt had not yet been paid. There were two sides of Hades, Abraham's bosom (Paradise) where Lazarus went, and the other side divided by a great gulf (pain & torment side) which the 'rich man' resided. Paradise is not Heaven, as with the criminal on his cross next to Jesus:

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

Paradise: The Greek word used here, paradeisos, appears in the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the OT) to describe the garden of Eden (Gen 2:9; 13:10).

In Jewish literature from the centuries before Jesus, paradeisos is used in reference to the blissful place of the righteous dead (Testament of Levi 18:10–11; Psalms of Solomon 14:3; 1 Enoch 17–19; 60:8; 61:12). By the first century AD, the word likely became synonymous with “heaven,” as reflected in 2 Cor 12:4 and Rev 2:7.

At this point, Jesus had not ascended to Heaven to present Himself as our Savior, sacrificial Lamb and advocate. John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.  

Our Lord Jesus went to the paradise side (Abraham's Bosom), and cleaned out the Paradise side and took them to Heaven, because the sin debt had been paid in full.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

To answer your question; "If there's any place in the Bible where saved souls are not with Jesus." I propose Ephesians 4:8-10 above.

There's no soul sleep. When one looks upon a dead body, it looks like they are asleep. It's not a metaphor; that's what they actually look like; asleep, thus the terminology. 

All our hermeneutics are different, this is just mine.

 

 

 

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for what you added to the review. Would you mind if I ask a question about it?
You say that after He died, the Lord Jesus came to Abraham. You rightly call this the Paradise. (Lk.23:43)
But all the souls that the Lord Jesus found there were of righteous people.  I will mention some names starting with Abel, Abraham, Lazarus, and all the other righteous.
This group of people had always been focused on God the Father during their life on earth, they were obedient, they sought to do what is right and Abraham is called a friend of God.
Now comes my question:
How is it that it says that after He died the Lord Jesus went to those who were disobedient?

'Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.' (1Pt.3:20)

I am very curious about your answer, to put it next to mine later. Thanks in advance.

God bless bro.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Frits