Abomination

[Justin Adams]

As a side note: it could be that the 'Christianized' book of Revelation is a bit obtuse to say the least and leans heavily against the baddies (Roman gentiles) and is a little strange when the author may have been a Deacon or something and not the actual apostle John. As such, it may be dated just before or close to the fall of Jerusalem.

[Guest kingdombrat]

9 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

 As such, it may be dated just before or close to the fall of Jerusalem.

If this is true, then John's own Disciples Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Papias are all LIARS who claim John held the position of Bishop until around 107 A.D. to the Church of Ephesus.

 

But, if we accept Peter's Disciple Mark [Gospel of Mark = Peter's Hebrew oral presentation to Marks Greek's interpretation] and we accept the contributions by Paul's own Disciples, but refuse John's Disciples, we do so to conform our own Theology.

 

I put forth if John's Disciples Polycarp-Irenaeus-Papaias are LIARS, so is Mark (Peter's Disciple) and Paul's Disciples!

 

But it's rather obvious, Christ allowed John and his Disciples to be around the turn of the 1st Century into the 2nd to ensure the Gospel was carried on.

Edited March 21, 2021 by kingdombrat

[Retrobyter]

On 3/17/2021 at 7:17 AM, Duck said:

What is the abomination of desolation?

is it a future event, prior to Jesus’ return?

Shabbat shalom, Duck.

Actually, what does the word "desolation" mean to you? When we say that a land is "desolate," what are we saying? Aren't we saying that it is "EMPTY" and "BLEAK" and "LONELY?"

Roget's International Thesaurus gives us the following English categories for "desolation":
waste 165.2
depopulation 308.3
dismalness336.2
devastation 691.1
wretchedness 864.6
sadness 870.12
forlornness 922.4

What is the Greek word for "desolation?" (Using Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, we can look up Matthew 24:15 and find that the word is "ereemooseoos":

Strong's says it's a form of ...

2050 ereemoosis (er-ay'-mo-sis). From ereemo-oo; despoliation
-- desolation.

Looking up "despoliation" in a dictionary, one will find that it means "the action of despoiling (822.5) or the condition of being despoiled; plunder (822.15): the despoliation of the resources of the natural world."

And, the term "despoilment" (987.6) is also given by the thesaurus.

To round it out, we can also look up the verb:

2049 ereemo-oo (er-ay-mo'-o) [such that the "o" is short in the "mo" syllable]. From ereemos; to lay waste (165.2) (literally or figuratively)
-- (bring to, make) desolate(-ion), come to nought.

Since it makes the point of this word coming from "ereemos," let's go one more...

2048 ereemos (er'-ay-mos). Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, i.e. (by implication) waste (165.2) (usually as a noun, chora being implied) -- desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

"Chora" (5561) is the Greek word that is used for "(a) a country or region, (b) the land, as opposed to the sea, (c) the country, distinct from town, (d) plur: fields."

This adds the thought of the depopulation (308.3) of a land!

165.2 waste, wasteland, desolation, barren or barrens, garden land, "weary waste" [Southey], heath; desert, Sahara, "a barren waste, a wild of sand" [Addison]; Karroo or Karoo [S. Africa]; wilderness, howling wilderness, wild, wilds; bush, brush.
308.3 depopulation, dispeoplement; devastation, desolation.
822.5 plundering, pillaging, looting, sacking, ransacking, rifling, spoiling, despoiling: pillage, plunder, sack, rapine, spoliation, spoilation, depredation, direption [hist.], ravage, ravaging, ravagement, rape, ravishment; maraud, marauding, foraging; raid, foray, razzia.
822.15 plunder, pillage, loot, sack, ransack, rifle, spoil, spoliate, despoil, depredate, prey on or upon, ravage, ravish, raven, sweep, gut; fleece (820.21), maraud, forage, raid.

Wrapping all this up, the word means "to devastate a land, removing its people, and plundering its wealth."

See, most people can't get past the "abomination" part; so, I started with the "desolation" part first.

The "abomination" in the English thesaurus leads to "evil 673.3, defilement 680.4, repugnance 865.2, hatred 928.1,3, and wrong 957.2."

The Greek word in Matthew 24:15 is "bdelugma."

946 bdelugma (bdel'-oog-mah). From bdelussoo; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry
-- abomination.

948 bdelussoo (bdel-oos'-so) [causative, active] and bdelussomai (bdel-oo'-som-ahee) [reflexive, passive or middle]. From a (presumed) derivative of bdeoo (to stink); to be disgusted, i.e. (by implication) detest (especially of idolatry)
-- abhor, abominable.

Now, look at the parts of speech and the arrangement of these two words: 

15 Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos to hreethen dia Danieel tou profeetou hestos en topoo hagioo, ho ginooskoon noeitoo,

15 Hotan = 15 When [conjunction]
oun = therefore [conjunction]
ideete = you-shall-see [aorist, subjunctive, active - 2nd person plural]
to = the [definite article - accusative, neuter, singular]
bdelugma = detestation/evil/defilement/repugnance/hatred/wrong [noun - accusative, neuter, singular]
tees = of-the [definite article - genitive, feminine, singular]
ereemooseoos = devastation of a land, removing its people, and plundering its wealth [noun - genitive, feminine, singular]
to = that [definite article - accusative, neuter, singular]
hreethen = having been spoken of [verb - aorist, participle, passive - accusative, neuter, singular]
dia = through; by [preposition]
Danieel = Daniel [proper noun - genitive, masculine, singular]
tou = the [definite article - genitive, masculine, singular]
profeetou = prophet [ noun - genitive, masculine, singular]
hestos = standing [verb - perfect, participle, active - accusative, neuter, singular]
en  = in [preposition]
topoo = a-place [noun - dative, masculine, singular]
hagioo, = ritually-clean [adjective - dative, masculine, singular]
ho  = the-[one]  [definite article - nominative, masculine, singular]
anaginooskoon = reading [verb - present, participle, active - nominative, masculine, singular]
noeitoo, = let-him-understand, [verb - present, imperative, active - 3rd person, singular]

Since the word translated as "desolation" is in the genitive case, the word "of" is supplied between the nouns, technically attached to the article, showing possession.

It's the devastation's repugnance that one sees standing in a "ritually-clean place," i.e., the Temple grounds. In 70 A.D., the Temple was torn down, block by block, to get at the molten gold that flowed between the blocks of stone. It was then and also in 135 A.D., after the Bar-Kokhba revolt of 132 A.D., when the Land of Israel was desolated, denuded of its crops, the land salted, and its people removed and taken to other lands under the control of the Roman Empire. And, to add insult to injury, the Romans called the land "Palestine," a Roman transliteration of the Plishtiym, also transliterated as "Philistia," the land of the Philistines! (It's as bad as calling a part of Israel's Land, the "West Bank" or the "Gaza Strip!")

Yeshua` was speaking to His disciples primarily at that time soon before His crucifixion. This is punctuated in the Greek with the use of the second-person plural for the words translated "you," "ye," and "your" in this chapter. It's found in the usage of the second-person, plural pronouns, ...
humeis, the nominative case,
humoon, the genitive or ablative case,
humin, the dative, locative, or instrumental case, and
humas, the accusative case.

It's also seen in the second-person, plural endings of the verbs, ending in -te (tau epsilon) or -the (theta epsilon), such as the word ideete in this very verse.

This was a future event for Yeshua` and His disciples during that time when Yeshua` delivered the Olivet Discourse, but it's not a future event for us. We have to be able to see when a prophecy has been "fulfilled." Understand, though, that NOT ALL PROPHECIES within the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled! For examples, verses 15-19 were already fulfilled, but we are CURRENTLY WITHIN verses 20-22. Verses 23-28 have MOSTLY all been fulfilled, having MOSTLY to do with the First Century, but they may still apply to the present. But, verses 29-31 have DEFINITELY NOT been fulfilled, yet!

[Jaydub]

On 3/18/2021 at 12:52 AM, Charlie744 said:

But my interpretation points to the verses 9:24 to 9:27 which brings the Jews back to Jerusalem and the coming Messiah and His crucifixion. My interpretation is the “abomination” can not be anything other than His crucifixion... and among other things this will be the last time the Temple will be important or relevant In Jewish history or in God’s Plan of Salvation.. After His crucifixion the Temple will be completely destroyed and no more, the land will be salted and abandoned and will not give its fruit, the Jews will be murdered and dispersed for almost 2,000 years... There can not be an more horrible event that the rejection of their Messiah and His crucifixion— the crucifixion of our Lord is the most abominable act that could ever occur..

I agree with you on what the abomination is/was, but I also believe there is another abomination of desolation  that will bring on the destruction of Israel or least Armageddon. I believe Matthew will have a duel fulfillment. 

If the Jews build a temple and the high priest sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins it will be the abomination that causes desolation it will be the cause of the end to come. The high priest will be standing in the temple in place of Christ saying sins are forgiven

Just my thoughts

[Charlie744]

Just now, Jaydub said:

I agree with you on what the abomination is/was, but I also believe there is another abomination of desolation  that will bring on the destruction of Israel or least Armageddon. I believe Matthew will have a duel fulfillment. 

If the Jews build a temple and the high priest sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins it will be the abomination that causes desolation it will be the cause of the end to come. The high priest will be standing in the temple in place of Christ saying sins are forgiven

Just my thoughts

Well, I can not comment on that if you are referring to a Revelation verse....once again, I have not studied it yet......

But I would caution you .... some / many have also claimed the "abomination" is also referring to the 2nd Temple destruction... and others claiming the destruction of a 3rd Temple.... either way, both Temples would have NO value, or meaning or importance to God... It would simply be a stone building ....

Man, no matter how hard they try or how much they want something to be HOLY, can not make something COMMON TO BE HOLY. 

If I were to see a reference to the "abomination" in Revelation, I am sure I might expect / consider it not to be literal or physical but figurative or spiritual.... 

With all these references and interpretations folks pull from Revelation where they bring them back into Daniel, it is going to be interesting to complete Daniel and then  move on with them to Revelation....

The more I think about it (way to early of course), as Daniel 1 to Daniel 12 clearly (to me) speaks more and more figuratively or spiritually, I expect Daniel 12 to be a spiritual launching pad for Revelation.... 

Just my thoughts, Charlie
 

PS. I am comfortable with the reference earlier re:  Zechariah 12 and the return of the Jews when they recognize and accept Jesus as the "one they pierced".