Futurism

[Retrobyter]

53 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

Why do you believe # 3 to be true, not until he returns will they believe

Shabbat shalom, Jaydub.

Don't believe all that you're told. Actually, there are MANY Jews coming to know their Messiah through the works of the Messianic Jews. Paul Wilbur has had several concerts in Israel, specifically to introduce the children of Israel to God's Messiah, Yeshua`, and many are coming to believe in Him.

Granted, there's still a LOT of work to do, but they are already turning back to their God by turning to His Son.

53 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

you can know all there is to know about Daniel, be wrong about the rapture, then be wrong about revelation 

Well, all I know is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a "pretribulational rapture" if one understands that we've BEEN in the "tribulation" since the First Century A.D!

See, Yeshua` was speaking about the First Century when He was telling His disciples DIRECTLY "they shall deliver you up into tribulation" in ...

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted (Greek: Tote paradoosousin HUMAS eis thlipsin = "Then they-shall-deliver YOU into tribulation"), and shall kill YOU: and YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

People will often speak ill against the King James Version (or the Authorized Version) because of its archaic English language, but it all depends on how you study the KJV. Remember: for over 400 years, it was the most popular version there was. We also know that many of us were introduced to our Messiah Yeshua` through the pages of the KJV. To this day, there are still more study helps for the KJV than for any other version (although that's changing).

BUT, the MAIN REASON why I will still quote from it is because it uses the old English forms of the second person. Today, we have "you," "your," and "yours." In the 1600s, they also had the other forms, as well:

....................................singular.....plural
subjective...................thou...........ye
objective.....................thee............you
possessive adjective..thy..............your
possessive pronoun...thine..........yours

This is good because the Greek also has multiple forms for the second person:

...........................................................singular...plural
nominative (subject)........................su.............humeis
genitive (of _, shows possession)...sou...........humoon (oo is an omega)
ablative (from _)...............................sou...........humoon (oo is an omega)
locative (in _, at _)............................soi............humin
instrumental (with _, by _)..............soi............humin
dative (to _, for _).............................soi............humin
accusative (direct object).................se.............humas

So, the words "you" and "ye" in Matthew 24:9 are SPECIFICALLY PLURAL! That's important to know. This fact confirms that Yeshua` was speaking to ALL of His disciples in this discourse, not just one person.

Here's a simple reason why it's so important: 

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!' ('Look, here He is!') or, 'lo there!' ('Look, there He is!') for, behold, the kingdom of God is within YOU."

Because this is the King James Version of the Bible, this "YOU" means that the 2nd person pronoun here is PLURAL, NOT SINGULAR! Yeshua` was not saying that the kingdom of God was within each individual; He was saying that the kingdom of God was within THEM AS A GROUP! It was WITHIN THEIR GROUP! The Greek word translated "within" is "entos" and it can just as easily means "among," especially when the object of the preposition is plural. It's not that the kingdom of God is secretively, "spiritually" "within" each person; it's that as long as the KING was there in the middle of them, the KINGDOM would be "AMONG" them!

Think about it: Yeshua` was speaking to THE PHARISEES! Would THEY be the ones who have the "kingdom of God" in them secretively or "spiritually?" No, because that's not what was meant.

On the other hand, had they accepted their King, God's Messiah (Anointed One) to be King, they would have been given the Kingdom, as well. Some object to this, because it was important that the Messiah be crucified, but God's Plan, being perfect, would not be thwarted by an early acceptance of their King. Just the same, it was a LEGITIMATE offer of the Kingdom although it was NOT accepted. Indeed, the rejection of the King and His Kingdom was the beginning of the tribulation that Yeshua` foretold in the Olivet Discourse. Thus, it was not unexpected. God Plan included both the OFFER and the REJECTION of the King!

[Diaste]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

On one hand you state correctly that the Jews of today may indeed build a 3rd Temple... with all the vessels and pieces of furniture.... and this can not save anyone .... does not and could not have the presence of God within it...... and this is certainly true - God died on the Cross for all and His coming ended all the ceremonial laws and practices that were meant to point to His coming were to represent those things He would fulfill - Perfect sacrifice, High Priest, True Temple, etc.,

Then you continue on with a verse from Paul about the man of sin sitting in a Temple proclaiming he is God..... Do you really believe God is concerned or worried about a character who will sit in a Temple that has no value, meaning, Holiness, etc., to Him?  He certainly would not be offended by this ... it would be just another slap in His face by those who have already rejected Him. 

It's not a contradiction. The beast ascending the Temple is more because of the national and religious identity and doctrine of the Jews and Israel. The Jews are waiting for an earthly messiah/king. I have heard this from their own mouths on several occasions. Nothing about the 3rd Temple has anything for God in heaven except blasphemy and the final act of rebellion of a group of His people in His city.

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Jesus certainly stood in the Holy Place (2nd Temple) their rejection of the Messiah and the crucifixion was indeed the most abominable act man could ever do on this earth.... ARE YOU REALLY EXPECTING ANOTHER ACT THAT WOULD BE A GREATER ABOMINATION THAT HIS CRUCIFIXION?  DID NOT HIS CRUCIFIXION (ABOMINATION) CAUSE THE COMPLETE DESOLATION OF THE JEWS, THEIR LAND, THEIR BUILDINGS, THEIR CITY AND THEIR TEMPLE?

If you think the death of Jesus was an abomination then we need to be done talking till you come to a greater knowledge and understanding. What Jesus did was the greatest act of love a person can have for others. That is not an abomination!!!

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Isn't it just possible that Daniel and Revelation and other verses in the NT have been grossly corrupted in both a purposeful (little horn) manner or ignorance of many interpreters who have simply followed them down the rabbit hole?

Maybe by you.

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

As I said, if you look for the Messiah in Daniel you will find Him and not some boogeyman labeled the AC..... and then take those interpretations forward to all the NT books.... they will stick and present a much different picture.. 

Charlie 

I hope you can find the knowledge and wisdom in the truth of Spirit.

[Charlie744]

Just now, Diaste said:

It's not a contradiction. The beast ascending the Temple is more because of the national and religious identity and doctrine of the Jews and Israel. The Jews are waiting for an earthly messiah/king. I have heard this from their own mouths on several occasions. Nothing about the 3rd Temple has anything for God in heaven except blasphemy and the final act of rebellion of a group of His people in His city.

If you think the death of Jesus was an abomination then we need to be done talking till you come to a greater knowledge and understanding. What Jesus did was the greatest act of love a person can have for others. That is not an abomination!!!

Maybe by you.

I hope you can find the knowledge and wisdom in the truth of Spirit.

Diaste, sorry you feel that way and I do agree with you that we are done... but, best wishes always, Charlie

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Diaste, you are just trying so, so hard to put a gap where there is none... discussing 1 second after the 69th week or whatever theory... 

Here it is: the first 7 weeks came first followed by the next 62 weeks and of course followed by the 70th week.

Did each of the 3 separate periods have gaps in them- of course not. 

Charlie

I'm saying you are making assumptions about what 'after' means. Understand that once the first century was completed, the next 19 centuries were after.  You are simply defining after to suit your beliefs.

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

This is the reason for most of my topics. I see how far we have come (down) from the early church. The falling away was already happening in the 2nd century and like my 'Futurist' post has been going downhill ever since. If you realized the origins of what your pastor has taught you, you might find it cringe-worthy. People refuse to study the old stuff mostly. For instance, read 'the sins of Augustine' and see what our seminaries are teaching today. People have long trusted in others to tell them what to think and that is a great shame. 

"Let my people think". That was Ravi's famous phrase. He died recently. RIP.

Brother I agree with what you're saying up to a point, if I may just try to put a finer point on some of it.  Bible teaches us to bring every thought CAPTIVE to the word of God, and also not to go beyond what is written.......so that's what I'll try to do here.  We actually don't think our way to the truth or figure it out....scripture says we RECEIVE from the Lord and that HE teaches and SHOWS and REVEALS truth to us.  What do we have that we didn't receive?  The bible doesn't say we think our way to the truth.....but it teaches we are to meditate on the word and chew the cud of it prayerfully, ie, with God, in His presence, sitting at His feet.

Isa 28:9

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

I understand and agree that we need to seek the truth for ourselves and test what we hear others say....but that is not really about thinking per se, it's about growing in the Lord.  It seems we are to grow spiritually in similar fashion as we grow from childhood into adulthood.  We start out as newborns and young children, not having any frame of reference apart from our parents so we just assume and believe that they know what they're talking about and we likewise as new believers tend to think the same about the churches we began attending.  Then as we grow in the Lord we start to realize our parents are not perfect, they're not always right and don't even always behave right....likewise with our churches and pastors, we start realizing that some things they are teaching or doing are not right so we begin to seek the Lord for ourselves and test the things that are being taught....it's at this point we are beginning to grow and to be weaned from the milk of 'mother church'.  The Lord begins to teach us wisdom and knowledge....meat of His word.  And there's also the fact that we pay a price for the truth as we go along, carrying our cross and following Jesus.  It's not about intellectual growth, it's about spiritual growth...no amount of intellectual application can give us what the Spirit of God can, on the contrary Jesus says the truth is hid from the wise and learned (proud) and revealed to little children (humble)  and that we must first  become a fool to become wise.

I'm not disparaging scholarship, scholarship has it's place......but I'm talking about how we approach God's word personally in general, in how we seek His truth.....we're not to rely on our carnal mind, but rely on the Holy Spirit.   By all means seek truth independently of churches and ministers, but not independently of God.  So I guess up to a point it depends on what someone means when they say to "let my people think".....though really to be truthful I believe if our thoughts on that are captive to the word of God we wouldn't actually think or say that.

And I'm sorry to mention it,  but some disappointing allegations have come to light about the man you mentioned.  I don't know what he taught, so can't comment specifically about his ministry, but one reason I believe the Lord is exposing sin in the church these days is so that we would be able to judge it by its fruit. 

 

[Justin Adams]

14 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

And I'm sorry to mention it,  but some disappointing allegations have come to light about the man you mentioned. 

Oh I agree. we have to be careful and not follow mere men. Some say and do some good stuff and others do not. The list of horrors goes on and on; and I do not find many even in the scriptures that are above reproach.

We are children that have often lost our way and yet the Lord brings us back. He does not harp on our misdeeds like the adversary does; He just covers us, picks us up and dusts us down with a gentle forwards shove to keep us keeping on.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Justin Adams

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

If you read Josephus carefully, you might find that it was Jewish factions that set fire to the temple and killed each other in droves before the Romans put and end to it all.

Was this what Jesus predicted would happen to THAT generation?  

If indeed it was the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy, why like when He was speaking of John the Baptist being Elijah if..... He didn't say 'and as prophesized by Daniel'?  I know He didn't have to but if it was a prophecy to come true, you would think there would be some sort of mention IN GODS WORD.  

Just thinkin...

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Oh I agree. we have to be careful and not follow mere men. Some say and do some good stuff and others do not. The list of horrors goes on and on; and I do not find many even in the scriptures that are above reproach.

We are children that have often lost our way and yet the Lord brings us back. He does not harp on our misdeeds like the adversary does; He just covers us, picks us up and dusts us down with a gentle forwards shove to keep us keeping on.

Not harping on anything with that brother, although I don't believe such things should be taken lightly.  My point was that his way of looking at things and teachings might bear a closer examination in light of the red flag of the sin in his life.  Much like you rightly pointed out a connection between Augustine's sinful lifestyle and his problematic approach to spiritual things.

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Diaste, with all due respect, I don't know how you could NOT find the Messiah in chapter 9 and think the purpose of the 70 weeks were designed by God to reveal the "restoration" of the Jews and that God would use this restoration of His people, His land, His buildings and the city and the Temple to bring the Messiah to the earth where He would be the ONE to restore the HOLY Presence back into the Temple - where Jeremiah had hidden the ARK prior to their captivity.

His timing was absolutely perfect.... He arrived at the Jordan to be baptized by John exactly on the first day of the beginning of the 70th week.... And He would fulfill all the 6 requirements of 9:24 before the crucifixion.....

Charlie

It wasn't their land.  It wasn't their city.  It wouldn't be their city and land until after the 2520 years banishment from Lev 26.   It wasn't theirs because God took it away from them.  

[Justin Adams]

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Was this what Jesus predicted would happen to THAT generation?  

If indeed it was the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy, why like when He was speaking of John the Baptist being Elijah if..... He didn't say 'and as prophesized by Daniel'?  I know He didn't have to but if it was a prophecy to come true, you would think there would be some sort of mention IN GODS WORD.  

Just thinkin...

Read Josephus to get the full story.

In a nutshell, the food shortages, privations and terrible times had them all infighting. The Romans left them to it hoping they would kill each other off. But then they attacked the Romans (again). Eventually Roman soldiers flattened the lot and the soldiers pulled down the stones looking for gold that had been melted into the cracks from the fires. So in the end, not one stone stood upon another, just as the prophesy had said.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Justin Adams