Futurism

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok Mr. Mathematician, since it will take me lite years to interpret your response, let me throw something your way.... please confirm if you will"

Abraham Lincoln was shot on April 14 and died on April 15th, the Titanic hit the iceberg on April 14 and sunk on April 15th.  

Can you convert those two dates in Hebrew........ I am sure they may be many, many events in the world when converted in Hebrew may tell us something?

By the way, the captain of the SS Californian who was nearest to the Titanic and had previously warned them was Captain Lord.

Charlie

 

Shalom, Charlie.

Okay, the death of Abraham Lincoln was on 19th of Nisan, 5625, and the Titanic hit the iceberg and sank on the 28th of Nisan, 5672. Abraham Lincoln died on a Shabbat (Friday night - Saturday). The Titanic sunk on the Second Day of the Week (Sunday night - Monday).

So, there's no correlation between the two, except they were both in the same month. Remember: The Hebrew Calendar is based on the LUNAR cycle! Even the difference in their years (47-year difference) is nothing spectacular in Hebrew chronology.

Sometimes, events happen that GENERATE A NEW HOLY DAY ("HOLIDAY") OR MEMORIAL! Events don't always have to coincide with other events to be special.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Amen, I'm with you sister.  (It is the SPIRIT who leads us into all truth and shows us things to come, not the intellect.  The bible says nothing about the intellect leading us into all truth, and God's word is for greater purposes than to supply us with mere information.)  These words in Joel and elsewhere are still alive for the church today.  Israel is the ensample of the church.....i believe many prophecies that were fulfilled as concerned Israel are still waiting to be fulfilled as concerns the church.

Shalom, Heleadethme.

Just a quick word (so I don't say anything I'll regret). You and DeighAnn need to understand that the leadership of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) does not NEGATE using some intelligence and even some common sense! It doesn't have to be an "either-or" situation! That's all.

[Charlie744]

12 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Charlie.

Okay, the death of Abraham Lincoln was on 19th of Nisan, 5625, and the Titanic hit the iceberg and sank on the 28th of Nisan, 5672. Abraham Lincoln died on a Shabbat (Friday night - Saturday). The Titanic sunk on the Second Day of the Week (Sunday night - Monday).

So, there's no correlation between the two, except they were both in the same month. Remember: The Hebrew Calendar is based on the LUNAR cycle! Even the difference in their years (47-year difference) is nothing spectacular in Hebrew chronology.

Sometimes, events happen that GENERATE A NEW HOLY DAY ("HOLIDAY") OR MEMORIAL! Events don't always have to coincide with other events to be special.

Thank you, and again I apologize... I did discover AFTER I became aware of these two seemingly unusual events this individual had grossly abused the facts and the interpretations (his).

That is when I contacted you mentioning the error..

Charlie

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

o every single one of these questions is a problem. Anyone not knowing the answers to the questions should not be posting to others what or how to believe because each of these questions speaks to a presuppositional problem pertaining to exegesis, hermeneutics, and then eschatology (or any other doctrinal position). 

Then please answer them by addressing the presuppositional problems you believe pertain to exegesis, hermeneutics and eschatology.  

What do YOU believe and WHY do you believe that way?   

 

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

How can someone say the question "How is the Bible used?" claim to use the Bible and use it well? How can the Bible be used if a person doesn't know how to use it?

THE question of 'HOW is the Bible USED' was your question, was it not?

How can the Bible be used if a person doesn't know how to use it?  AGAIN, the Holy Spirit leads

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Asking me what I believe about a specific matter ignores the subject being discussed

Don't you ask ?  

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

The question serves as a distraction, a red herring. We end up discussing what I personally believe, or what individuals personally believe and NOT what the scriptures state, which is the subject at hand: is scripture used first to understand scripture when making claims about what has been or is yet to be fulfilled? That is the topic of discussion, not my personal views on the temple. 

The question does not serve as a distraction to me.  If one has no personal views what are they doing here?   It is easy to critique others,  especially when one never puts themselves out there.  

I do not have a problem with what the scriptures state and I have no problem allowing scripture to interpret scripture.  I do not want ANYONE to  teach me HOW to read the Bible THEIR way that is what the Holy Spirit is for.  AND, IF one never states what they believe and how they arrived there what is going on?


 

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

The same problems arises when asking "Which ones..." First, how can anyone presume tell others what or how to believe if they do not already know which scripture speak of prophesies fulfilled? Second, were I to list some or all of those verses stating prophesy fulfilled digression is likely. Third, I've already answer that queston (!) so the question itself shows what I've posted is NOT being considered prayerfully or scripturally. 

DO we automatically ASSUME they DON'T KNOW,  when all they do is ask questions?  

What is wrong with some digression IF it leads to GODS truth?  Is that not more important than coloring within the lines?  

NO, the questions have not been answered in any straight forward manner so there is no way to prayerfully or scripturally consider them. 

To do that we repost the question, follow with an answer, give scripture.  Simple.  

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Lastly, the question "Where is said Joel's prophesy was fulfilled?" is a particularly puzzling question because 1) You, DeighAnn, were the one first broaching Joel. My reading your post in which you cited Joel claiming it was not all fulfilled is what prompted my inquiry.

I do not believe that to be correct.   Go back and look through the posts.  I am fairly certain you will see in fact,  you did.  And that is what lead me to bring it up.  

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Why ask me a question to which you already know the answer?

ARE you saying that every question you have asked,  you have not had the answers to,  and were looking for information and guidance?

THIS then,  is the big big apology I owe to you.  I thought that was all you ever did.  I AM SO SORRY for thinking you knew the answers to the questions you asked.  

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Second, anyone not knowing the answer to that question shouldn't be making claims about what's fulfilled and what's not; they most certainly shouldn't be teaching others.

I put forth the scriptures  both for Joels prophecy and when it was referenced SO THAT OTHERS could see EXACTLY what was prophesized and how it was referenced.  SO IT WASN'T ME TEACHING AT ALL, JUST SCRIPTURE.  

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

 How do we use scripture? Do we use those places where the NT tells us prophesy has been fulfilled to interpret prophesy and its fulfillment, or do we use other "sources," such as secular history or modern hermeneutics and modern eschatology? 

See above and then BELIEVE the Lord when HE TELLS US 

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things AND KNOW mans wisdom doesn't lead to GODs Spiritual truths.  

I need to know the times and the seasons and I need to know the examples set forth so that I may follow in GODs prescribed way.  

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

To what degree is scripture used first when deciding what in prophesy has been fulfilled and what has not?

What other "sources" are used first instead of scripture? 

ARE YOU ASKING ME A QUESTION TO WHICH YOU ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER?

I SURE HOPE NOT

PRAY, REPENT, and ASK for FORGIVENESS 

I would ask the same but why.  

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

People claim to use scripture but often don't. Don't get lost in the details and miss the principle and precedent. 

And sometimes just the antecedent.  WHERE do those who are all about the proper grammar go and how is it they conveniently and consistently miss those same few verses time and again... oh, I digress.   
 

Edited March 29, 2021 by DeighAnn
be nicer

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Heleadethme.

Just a quick word (so I don't say anything I'll regret). You and DeighAnn need to understand that the leadership of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) does not NEGATE using some intelligence and even some common sense! It doesn't have to be an "either-or" situation! That's all.

Scripture says God's strength is perfected in our weakness.  And the carnal mind can't perceive the things of the Spirit.  His ways are not man's ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  Also, the more we are relying on the Lord for understanding, the more He is glorified and not man.

1Co 2:13-14

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

Scripture says God's strength is perfected in our weakness.  And the carnal mind can't perceive the things of the Spirit.  His ways are not man's ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  Also, the more we are relying on the Lord for understanding, the more He is glorified and not man.

1Co 2:13-14

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Shalom, Heleadethme.

That all SOUNDS right, but remember: We are NOT the "natural man," if we're born again! Nor, if we are in the Messiah, do we have a "carnal mind!" We DON'T speak "with man's wisdom," if we have "learned the Messiah!" Again, it's not "either-or"; it's "BOTH-AND!" 

One should be GROWING in the knowledge of the Lord!

2 Peter 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue; and to virtue KNOWLEDGE; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 

8 For IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU, and ABOUND, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. 9 BUT he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Don't put those of us who study God's Word in the category of "the natural man" "with man's wisdom!" I take PERSONAL OFFENSE to that! I believe that it is the SPIRIT OF GOD who gave me the ability to understand His Word to the degree He have given me! I'm not perfect (mature), yet, but I'm CONSTANTLY GROWING, AS I BELIEVE WE ARE ALL MEANT TO GROW!

One should NOT sit in the safety of his/her little, "ivory tower" of ignorant bliss! We are CALLED to grow!

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

I already have. Thank you for your time but it's clear either answers to my questions are not possessed or there isn't an interest. There's simply no rational explanation for twice asking questions that were answered pre-emptively.

 No, that was not the question. The question sis found in the original post in which I first inquired of you. It has been quoted several times and re-worded diversely for the sake of clarification.

I believe my salient points have demonstrably been proven: futurists who don't use the New Testament's clear statements about what has been fulfilled will not and cannot correctly identify what parts of prophesy have and have not been fulfilled. 

 

Again, I thank you for your time. For those interested in this exegetical concept, let me recommend, "Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament," and "Handbook of the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation." Neither book is edited or written by a preterist (partial or otherwise).

I wish I could find the answers you keep telling me you are giving, but I can't.  I don't think 'they are possessed' by me because of the way in which you deliver them.   That is why I keep asking for them in a simple question and answer and scripture format  Why you refuse to share what has been given to you in a manner in which I could, I hope,  I don't understand.  But it most certainly is not from 'a lack of interest' on my part. 

 

[Heleadethme]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That all SOUNDS right, but remember: We are NOT the "natural man," if we're born again! Nor, if we are in the Messiah, do we have a "carnal mind!" We DON'T speak "with man's wisdom," if we have "learned the Messiah!" Again, it's not "either-or"; it's "BOTH-AND!" 

And yet apparently we can choose to live by and gratify the natural man in us still instead of reckoning him dead.  Of course we all have a temporal fleshly brain (useful up to a point for dealing with temporal earthly things, but not spiritual), but I think the question really is who is wielding and using it.....is it us, or is it God since we are supposed to be vessels for Him.  And I agree about growing, this is something we need to grow in too, not just in knowledge, but in how we live (and die to the natural man) for the Lord.  

As I said earlier, I don't disparage scholarship....of course that can be useful in certain ways, eg, for determining accurate translation of scripture as well as providing background historical/cultural information etc.  But once we've got that information reasonably straight, only the Holy Spirit can help us rightly divide God's word from there. 

And I would like to mention...."Study to show yourself approved" means endeavour to show yourself approved.  Study is an old English word for endeavour.  When people read that verse according to the modern usage of the word study it leads them off the mark....they think God is telling them that they are to study, study, study and analyze the bible like a textbook or literary work, and that this is pleasing to the Lord.  Whereas Solomon wrote, "of the making of many books there is no end and much study is a weariness to the flesh".  To the what?....to the FLESH.  And we might wonder how ordinary people were expected to obey that word and "study" the bible back in an era when there weren't even any printing presses and most people only ever heard the scriptures and letters of the apostles read out to them on sabbath days.

But the Lord has not changed....the best way to receive understanding and light is still to tuck the word away in our hearts, let it be engraved on our hearts (ouch - carrying our cross), and prayerfully meditate on it....like David did, who the Lord declared to be a man after His own heart.  

[Alive]

Again--this is getting way to close to being personal and argumentative to a point where there is no edification. I don't want to shut this down or start deleting posts--c'mon folks.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

And yet apparently we can choose to live by and gratify the natural man in us still instead of reckoning him dead.  Of course we all have a temporal fleshly brain (useful up to a point for dealing with temporal earthly things, but not spiritual), but I think the question really is who is wielding and using it.....is it us, or is it God since we are supposed to be vessels for Him.  And I agree about growing, this is something we need to grow in too, not just in knowledge, but in how we live (and die to the natural man) for the Lord.  

As I said earlier, I don't disparage scholarship....of course that can be useful in certain ways, eg, for determining accurate translation of scripture as well as providing background historical/cultural information etc.  But once we've got that information reasonably straight, only the Holy Spirit can help us rightly divide God's word from there. 

And I would like to mention...."Study to show yourself approved" means endeavour to show yourself approved.  Study is an old English word for endeavour.  When people read that verse according to the modern usage of the word study it leads them off the mark....they think God is telling them that they are to study, study, study and analyze the bible like a textbook or literary work, and that this is pleasing to the Lord.  Whereas Solomon wrote, "of the making of many books there is no end and much study is a weariness to the flesh".  To the what?....to the FLESH.  And we might wonder how ordinary people were expected to obey that word and "study" the bible back in an era when there weren't even any printing presses and most people only ever heard the scriptures and letters of the apostles read out to them on sabbath days.

But the Lord has not changed....the best way to receive understanding and light is still to tuck the word away in our hearts, let it be engraved on our hearts (ouch - carrying our cross), and prayerfully meditate on it....like David did, who the Lord declared to be a man after His own heart.  

There is a lot in your post that got my attention and I would like to inquiry about, and there are parts that I would like to reflect on and I need a little time