Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I can think of a 3rd - the resurrection of the OT saints that occurred ar the time of Christ's resurrection:

" At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt.27:51-53)

That verse has always been quite a bit of an enigma.  Considering that the bride of Christ consists of the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles:

• It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.  There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.  And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Revelation 21:12-14

I'm inclined to think that the holy people who were raised to life in that verse are those who lived before Abraham, before God called out his own nation.  Old covenant and new covenant believers make up the bride of Christ and are raised immortal at His return.  That's why I think Matthew 27:52 is a reference to Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc.  Looking at in terms of a harvest, they would be the first fruits along with Christ.  Then the main harvest would consist of those from Abraham until the return of Christ, and the gleanings would be those of the millennial kingdom (~2000 years, 4000 years, and 1000 years).  Just something to think about.  Can't really be dogmatic about it.

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I can think of a 3rd - the resurrection of the OT saints that occurred ar the time of Christ's resurrection:

" At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt.27:51-53)

Shabbat shalom, JoeMo, and welcome!

You're mentioning the same one that OldCoot says is the first in Matthew 27. However, only Yeshua` was the One who was resurrected at that time as a NEW body as described in
1 Corinthians 15:35-49. The others resurrected at His DEATH (not His Resurrection) were resurrected as people who would have to die again later.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 gives us Paul's understanding of the order of general resurrections:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and [is] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(1 or "0") Christ the firstfruits;
(2 or "1") afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (3 or "2") Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

(But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (Christ, the Son), that God may be all in all.

The Greek of verse 20 is ...

Pros Korinthious A 15:20 

20 Nuni de Christos egeergetai ek nekroon, aparchee toon kekoimeemenoon.

20 Nuni = 20 now
de = But
Christos = [the]-Anointed-One, [the]-Messiah
egeergetai = has-been-raised
ek = from
nekroon, = [the]-dead-[ones], (plural adjective)
aparchee = [the]-firstfruit (singular noun)
toon = of-the (plural article)
kekoimeemenoon. = ones-having-fallen-asleep. (plural)

This last word is a verbal that is treated as a noun. It's a "perfect participle middle or passive" verb treated as noun that is a "genitive masculine plural." We'd call it a "gerund," as we would use the word "fishing" in the sentence "My favorite sport is fishing."

So the only words that are plural are nekroon, toon, and kekoimeemenoon (where "ee" is eta, and "oo" is omega). The only true verb (egeergetai) is third-person singular, and "aparchee," "firstfruit," is a singular noun.

The "Christ" or Messiah Yeshua` was the ONLY ONE who was in the first (or "zero-eth") resurrection!

Verse 24 is talking about the Resurrection found in Revelation 20, which happens after the Thousand-Year ("Millennial") Kingdom, when He shall be "putting all enemies under His feet," "putting down all rule and all authority and power." Then, He shall deliver up that "kingdom to God, even the Father," and "also Himself be subject unto him, ... that God may be all in all."

One must look closely at Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (Aramaic or "Syriatic" Hebrew transliterated into Greek and English)

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Greek translated to English)

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" ("Eliyahuw," often abbreviated to "Eliy")

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God."

Let's look at the Greek of verses 51 through 53:

Kata Maththaion 27:51-53

51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap' anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan, 52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegertheesan, 53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

51 Kai = 51 And
idou = behold; look!
to = the
katapetasma = veil
tou = of-the
naou = Temple
eschisthee = was-torn
ap' = away-from
anoothen = [the]-top
heoos = until; as-much-as
katoo = [the]-bottom
eis = into
duo, = two,
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth; ground
eseisthee, = was-shaken
kai = and
hai = the
petrai = rocks
eschistheesan, = were-split,
52 kai = 52 and
ta = the
mneemeia = memorials; tombs
aneoochtheesan = were-opened
kai = and
polla = many
soomata = bodies
toon = of-the
kekoimeemenoon = ones-having-fallen-asleep
hagioon = holy
eegertheesan, = were-raised,
53 kai = and
exelthontes = having-gone-forth
ek = out
toon = of-the
mneemeioon = memorials; tombs
meta = after
teen = the
egersin = resurrection
autou = of-Him; His
eiseelthon = they-entered
eis = into
teen = the
hagian = holy
polin = city
kai = and
enefanistheesan = they-appeared
pollois. = to-many.

So, these that arose at that time, were brought back to life AT HIS DEATH! The tombs were opened, but they didn't leave them until the Messiah arose, and THEN they went into the city, Jerusalem. Their resurrections were still resurrections like those of Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, and the widow's son! They would have to die again! They were NOT resurrected as our Lord was! They had time to help the believers after Yeshua` ascended ALONE to the sky! (See Acts 1:9-11.)

Also, the "two men" who "stood by them in white apparel" (Acts 1:10) are never said to be "angels." These may have been two of the ones who were resurrected, but that's conjecture.

Ephesian 4:8 is a QUOTATION from Psalm 68:18!

Psalm 68:7-19 (KJV)

7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:

8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.
11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.
13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.
14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.
15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill (Mount Moriah in Zion) which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

This "captivity led captive" were the children of Israel, those whom were led from Egypt!

[Resurrection Priest]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That verse has always been quite a bit of an enigma.  Considering that the bride of Christ consists of the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles:

• It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.  There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.  And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Revelation 21:12-14

I'm inclined to think that the holy people who were raised to life in that verse are those who lived before Abraham, before God called out his own nation.  Old covenant and new covenant believers make up the bride of Christ and are raised immortal at His return.  That's why I think Matthew 27:52 is a reference to Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc.  Looking at in terms of a harvest, they would be the first fruits along with Christ.  Then the main harvest would consist of those from Abraham until the return of Christ, and the gleanings would be those of the millennial kingdom (~2000 years, 4000 years, and 1000 years).  Just something to think about.  Can't really be dogmatic about it.

I like that - "the gleanings".  Had not heard it put that way before. 

I wonder if the resurrection of Matthew 27:52 was for all those who were faithful before Messiah, rather than before Abraham. 

[Resurrection Priest]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'm inclined to think that the holy people who were raised to life in that verse are those who lived before Abraham, before God called out his own nation.  Old covenant and new covenant believers make up the bride of Christ and are raised immortal at His return.  That's why I think Matthew 27:52 is a reference to Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc.  Looking at in terms of a harvest, they would be the first fruits along with Christ.  Then the main harvest would consist of those from Abraham until the return of Christ, and the gleanings would be those of the millennial kingdom (~2000 years, 4000 years, and 1000 years).  Just something to think about.  Can't really be dogmatic about it.

Just me personally, I see the 24 Elders (already in Heaven). Then those raised at the Glorious Return.  Then the great multitude - 1000 years later. 

King David divided the priesthood into 24 courses of priests, who rotated in a schedule 2 weeks at a time (plus everyone came up for the Feasts).  I think there may be far more than just #24 elders presently serving in Heaven.  There may actually be 24 courses. 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/4/2020 at 1:19 PM, KJVOnly said:

Spirit filled born again saints will not face the Antichrist.

I am not personally a believer in a "secret rapture" 7 years before the Glorious Return.   I don't see that.

Especially the part about Jews being left on earth, for another chance to get it right, while persecuted by the Beast for 7 years.

How do you know that the saints will not face the Antichrist?

[Resurrection Priest]

I believe the Trumpets will be caused by Satan, in his efforts to deceive the world into worship of his image.  The clue is the 1/3 of everything effected.  Remember Satan's tail drew 1/3 of the angels of heaven. 

When the 7th trumpet sounds, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ."  Also the time has arrived to "reward Your servants the prophets and the saints", and to "destroy those who destroy the earth."  THIS is when "Your wrath has come" (v.18).  (See Revelation 11:15-18)

The BOWL PLAGUES follow. 

So the bowl plagues don't happen until the 7th trumpet sounds, which is "the last trump" - which is when the righteous dead are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (KJV)

    1 Thessalonians 4:16,17  “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”    This is one event!

I believe the bowl plagues (as a cascading event) will be poured out on the day that Christ returns for judgment. 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, these that arose at that time, were brought back to life AT HIS DEATH! The tombs were opened, but they didn't leave them until the Messiah arose, and THEN they went into the city, Jerusalem. Their resurrections were still resurrections like those of Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, and the widow's son! They would have to die again! They were NOT resurrected as our Lord was! They had time to help the believers after Yeshua` ascended ALONE to the sky! (See Acts 1:9-11.)

That's possible.  But what about Moses and Elijah?  Moses died (Joshua 1:2).  Then he appeared with Elijah, talking to Yeshua on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Doesn't that make him resurrected?   And Paul says that "death reigned from Adam to Moses" (Romans 5:14). 

Is it possible that Moses was resurrected, and Elijah taken up, and Enoch taken without seeing death - all because of what God and His Son had promised to do.  God, because He saw the future, saw it as already done, and allowed Moses' resurrection because of what would be. 

That doesn't change Yeshua being "the firstfruits".  It was because of what Christ did, that Moses could be resurrected.  Everyone resurrected - was/is resurrected because of what Christ did.  His is the resurrection from which all the others flow - regardless of when they occurred.  Christ is not "first" in the sense of time occurrence.  He is first in the sense of cause, and importance. 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I like that - "the gleanings".  Had not heard it put that way before. 

I wonder if the resurrection of Matthew 27:52 was for all those who were faithful before Messiah, rather than before Abraham. 

The reason I think it refers to those who were before Abraham is because the old covenant saints and the new covenant saints make up the bride of Christ.

 

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The reason I think it refers to those who were before Abraham is because the old covenant saints and the new covenant saints make up the bride of Christ.

 

I get the part about gates for the 12 tribes, and 12 foundations for the Apostles. 

Are you saying the faithful before Abraham are/will NOT BE  part of "the bride"?   So the New Jerusalem won't be their forever home?

If I built inherited a big mansion, I certainly think I would invite my grandfather to live in that home (assuming he was still alive). 

So Enoch, Seth, Noah, Job - won't be part of "the bride" ?   What are they then?   Just distant relatives?  Jesus died for them too. 

Jesus gave His life for His bride. 

I thought everyone He died for will be part of His bride.

Colossians 1:24 “Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the church [His congregation].”

Paul says Christ “gave himself up for her” - meaning His bride. 

Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (NRS).

The "church" is not something different from "Israel". 

Israel is God's covenant people.  Some were "cut off" from that people.  Believing Gentiles are "grafted in" to that body. 

 

[Last Daze]

34 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I get the part about gates for the 12 tribes, and 12 foundations for the Apostles. 

Are you saying the faithful before Abraham are/will NOT BE  part of "the bride"?   So the New Jerusalem won't be their forever home?

If I built inherited a big mansion, I certainly think I would invite my grandfather to live in that home (assuming he was still alive). 

So Enoch, Seth, Noah, Job - won't be part of "the bride" ?   What are they then?   Just distant relatives?  Jesus died for them too. 

Jesus gave His life for His bride. 

I thought everyone He died for will be part of His bride.

Colossians 1:24 “Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the church [His congregation].”

Paul says Christ “gave himself up for her” - meaning His bride. 

Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (NRS).

The "church" is not something different from "Israel". 

Israel is God's covenant people.  Some were "cut off" from that people.  Believing Gentiles are "grafted in" to that body. 

 

I wouldn't get too worked up about it.  We simply don't know.  There's nothing to indicate that they are.  What about millennial believers?  What I do know is that there will be new heavens and earth where righteousness dwells and that's where I want to be.  It's much bigger that a city.

• But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.  2 Peter 3:13
• When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.  1 Corinthians 15:28