Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Diaste]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:10 AM, iamlamad said:

Scripture does, at times, require some further study. 

Are we living in "an age?"  The church is still on earth and still growing. I would say yes.

Paul hints strongly of an "age" he was in.

Ephesians 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Since he wrote of "other ages" that is a strong hint he was living in a different "age." Then Paul mentioned several times of the dispensation given to him for the Gentiles.

My conclusion is, we are now living in the church age. But it is really only an insert or parenthesis of the Messianic age Jesus created when He came. The proof of this is that this age will end with Daniel's 70th week which will end the Jewish age.

Gotta have at least one more premise to make a factual conclusion.

Sure, there are ages. They aren't defined and may be a general allusion to 'time past' or some idea of the age of the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Ancient Egyptians.

Nothing says Church Age stronger than man's doctrine. 

We of course are living in an age but scripture doesn't define that either.

I would like to see the following premises all proven factual:

1) Scripture say there are ages. True

2) If we are alive now we are living in an age. True

3) Scripture defines the current age as 'of the church'. [Not established. Establish this one]

Conclusion: Ergo, all living people are in the Church Age. [Not equivalent and false.]

 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 6:10 AM, iamlamad said:

 

6:11 Then each one of them was given a white robe [^Csignifying high status and purity] and was told to ·wait [or rest] a short time longer. There were still some of their fellow servants and ·brothers and sisters in the service of Christ [^Ltheir brothers; ^Cthe Greek term may include men and women] who ·must be [were soon to be] killed as they were. They had to wait until all of this was ·finished [fulfilled; completed]. EXB

This waiting has been on-going now for nearly 2000 years. There are still martyrs being added to this group.

Quite the leap from the 'fact of' to an unequivocal duration when no proof of duration is in the text. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

But you still haven't provided any scriptures to support that "John is VERY clear that the DoL will cover the entire week"

Where does John begin the Day? In chapter 6 at the 6th seal. 

Where is the 70th week? It goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

God places the 70th week INSIDE the DOL so that every judgment event will come with His wrath. After all, it is the DAY of His wrath.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Gotta have at least one more premise to make a factual conclusion.

Sure, there are ages. They aren't defined and may be a general allusion to 'time past' or some idea of the age of the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Ancient Egyptians.

Nothing says Church Age stronger than man's doctrine. 

We of course are living in an age but scripture doesn't define that either.

I would like to see the following premises all proven factual:

1) Scripture say there are ages. True

2) If we are alive now we are living in an age. True

3) Scripture defines the current age as 'of the church'. [Not established. Establish this one]

Conclusion: Ergo, all living people are in the Church Age. [Not equivalent and false.]

Quite the leap from the 'fact of' to an unequivocal duration when no proof of duration is in the text. 

If you wish to call the time we are living in as something else, feel free. Most of the church world are satisfied with "church age." The KJV calls it a dispensation. 

Has this age where the church started and has grown ceased? No. 

Ergo, we are still in the same age that Peter and Paul lived in.

[WilliamL]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:17 PM, iamlamad said:

Then He referenced 4:5 and asked me why the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room when "I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended..."

Anyone can make up answers to His questions, but He showed me HIS intent.  He was showing John the throne room of the past - a point in time while Jesus was under the earth and then resurrected and then ascended.

You can choose to believe or not believe His words to me.

Ok; I won't.

The more likely explanation is that, during the scene in Rev. 4, Jesus is then offering his blood of sacrifice in the heavenly sanctuary the "second time." Heb. 9:28; Lev. 16:6-17

Which is why he is soon after seen in Rev. 5 as a "lamb having been slain" (Rev. 5:6) "for the people." Lev. 16:15 Being the second of the two offerings for sin in the heavenly sanctuary required by God. Explained more fully here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1505-the-tabernacle-and-court-part-4-the-most-holy-place/

-- from which this is an excerpt:

Under the Mosaic Law of the Israelite Covenant, only the High Priest was allowed to enter into the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle, and only on one day each year. Lev. 16:2, 34; Heb. 9:7 On that day, the Day of Atonement, he was required to enter the Most Holy Place twice:

Leviticus 16:17 …that he may make atonement [1] for himself, and for his household, and [2] for all the assembly of Israel.

Under Christʼs Law of the Church Covenant,

Hebrews 8:1 We have such a High Priest… 2 a Minister of the Holy Places and of the true [i.e., Heavenly] Tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. … 9:12 …[who] entered [1] once into the Holy Places, having obtained (for) Himself* eternal redemption. … 24 For Christ has not entered into holy places made with hands, [which are] antitupa/antitypes/representations of the true, but into heaven itself, [2] now to appear in the Presence of God for us. … 28 To those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear out [of heavenʼs Sanctuary] a second time without sin to [the purpose of] salvation. *Greek middle/reflexive voice.

The true meaning of this passage out of Hebrews is generally missed. The two-fold atonement required of Aaronic High Priests in the earthly Tabernacle was meant to be an accurate representation of the two-fold atonement ultimately required of the heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ.

 

[Linkin]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:01 AM, JoeCanada said:

Hi Linkin,

 You made a few good points.

I agree that the 'rapture' comes at the end of the 'great tribulation'...Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus tells us that " in this world you will have tribulation"...."through much tribulation we must enter the Kingdom of God....Acts 14:22"....."your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure....so that you may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God...2Thes 1:5

At the end of the 'great tribulation'.... "the sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light...and then the sign of the Son of Man..... coming on the clouds... and He will send His angels and gather the elect...." Matthew 24:29-31

This is the end of the 'great trib'

And as you say ..."Those who are living will be changed, the dead are raised to life"

Then.... the Wrath of God on the ungodly.

What I don't agree with is..."and we are all transported to near Jerusalem to be eye witnesses of the battle of Armageddon"

Can you elaborate on this. Is there a scripture or two to back this up?

........." Then the 1000 year reign of Messiah begins from Jerusalem."

Yup, I agree.

Rev. 16:16 And He361 assembled them into the place called in Hebrew, “Armageddon.”362

 

361 While the unclean breaths deceive the kings of the land to come with their armies to Jerusalem, it is the Son who spoke the words in vs. 15 who ultimately gathers them for judgment and destruction (Joel 3:9-18, Zech. 14:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12, Rev. 19:19).

362 Literally, “Mountain of Megiddo.” Megiddo is a very large plain about 50 miles north of Jerusalem. It is the place where the armies of the nations will assemble prior to their attack on Jerusalem. It is not the location of the final battle itself, which will be around Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-9). Megiddo is overlooked from the south-east by Mt. Carmel, which was Elijah’s place of hiding and will be the primary place of refuge for Christians who flee from Judea (Micah 7:14-15; Matt. 24:15-21). These faithful believers will be able to watch the gathering of the armies from their vantage point in the caves of Carmel. This is probably why the text refers to “Armageddon” (Mountain of Megiddo) rather than merely “Megiddo” which is a valley. This is also why the exhortation to the believers in hiding was placed here in the text as a parenthetical statement. They will literally see the armies assemble as the sign to get ready for Jesus’ imminent arrival.

Sorry, I rarely enter online and normally have little time for discussion. So if I don't respond, please forgive me. 

 

[Linkin]

On 7/9/2022 at 4:20 AM, iamlamad said:

No, we will be coming WITH HIM as one of the armies of heaven.

Paul is clear that the rapture he wrote of would come just before wrath. John is clear that God's wrath will begin before the 70th week begins.

The above quote is therefore in error.

The holy ones are angels. Not people. Read all of the following down below this paragraph. Also I repeat, since the bible is clear no one but Jesus has ascended to heaven John 3:13, any belief in people going to heaven is Greek Platonism. If you believe that garbage over the bible, it makes no difference how many scriptures prove you wrong and no one but God will ever change your mind. I pray you see the truth and stop believing the lie.

In 1 Thess. 3:13, the expression is πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ. It can be translated “all the holy [ones] of him” or “all the holy things of him.” The word ἁγίων (holy) is an adjective used like a noun. When in the genitive case (as here) it is spelled exactly the same whether it is neuter or masculine. Consequently, it can refer to holy (things) or holy (ones – either people or angels). Which of these is meant cannot be determined by the phrase itself, only by the context or comparison to other passages.

Matthew 25:31 (NKJV) “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mark 8:38 (NKJV) 38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 9:26 (NKJV) 26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

 

 

Since revelation is progressive, before we decide what Paul meant in 1 Thess. 3:13, we need to know what Zechariah meant in Zech. 14:5. Since there is no basis in any of the Old Testament for the Messiah appearing in glory from heaven with people in tow, yet there is precedent for His appearance in glory from heaven on Mt. Sinai in the company of a multitude of angels (Psalm 68:17; Heb. 2:2), we ought to interpret “all the holy ones” in Zech. 14:5 as all the holy the angels, not people. This interpretation is confirmed by Jesus in Matt. 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. He used the word “all” and the adjective “holy” but added the noun “angels” in Matt. 25:31. In the other two the word “all” is not included, but “holy” and “angels” are included. All of these refer to Christ’s visible coming in glory to establish His Kingdom. With all of this prior revelation known both to Paul and his readers, it is certain that he was referring to the holy angels in 1 Thess. 3:13. This is further confirmed by Paul in the second letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thess. 1:7-8 (NKJV) “7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Translators presuppose something that is nowhere taught in the Bible, that dead people are in heaven, either their ghosts or bodily resurrected pretribbers. They then impose their theological presuppositions and bias upon the Scriptures and translate πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ in 1 Thess. 3:13 as “all His saints” (ESV, KJV, NASB, NKJV). However, the translators of the NIV, NJB, and a few others did not impose their own false presuppositions on this passage and translated it accurately as “all His holy ones” leaving the reader to decide whether it refers to angels or humans. In the LGV I translated it as “all His holy ones” and added a footnote pointing to these other passages.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Linkin said:

The holy ones are angels. Not people. Read all of the following down below this paragraph. Also I repeat, since the bible is clear no one but Jesus has ascended to heaven John 3:13, any belief in people going to heaven is Greek Platonism. If you believe that garbage over the bible, it makes no difference how many scriptures prove you wrong and no one but God will ever change your mind. I pray you see the truth and stop believing the lie.

In 1 Thess. 3:13, the expression is πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ. It can be translated “all the holy [ones] of him” or “all the holy things of him.” The word ἁγίων (holy) is an adjective used like a noun. When in the genitive case (as here) it is spelled exactly the same whether it is neuter or masculine. Consequently, it can refer to holy (things) or holy (ones – either people or angels). Which of these is meant cannot be determined by the phrase itself, only by the context or comparison to other passages.

Matthew 25:31 (NKJV) “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mark 8:38 (NKJV) 38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 9:26 (NKJV) 26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

 

 

Since revelation is progressive, before we decide what Paul meant in 1 Thess. 3:13, we need to know what Zechariah meant in Zech. 14:5. Since there is no basis in any of the Old Testament for the Messiah appearing in glory from heaven with people in tow, yet there is precedent for His appearance in glory from heaven on Mt. Sinai in the company of a multitude of angels (Psalm 68:17; Heb. 2:2), we ought to interpret “all the holy ones” in Zech. 14:5 as all the holy the angels, not people. This interpretation is confirmed by Jesus in Matt. 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. He used the word “all” and the adjective “holy” but added the noun “angels” in Matt. 25:31. In the other two the word “all” is not included, but “holy” and “angels” are included. All of these refer to Christ’s visible coming in glory to establish His Kingdom. With all of this prior revelation known both to Paul and his readers, it is certain that he was referring to the holy angels in 1 Thess. 3:13. This is further confirmed by Paul in the second letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thess. 1:7-8 (NKJV) “7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Translators presuppose something that is nowhere taught in the Bible, that dead people are in heaven, either their ghosts or bodily resurrected pretribbers. They then impose their theological presuppositions and bias upon the Scriptures and translate πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ in 1 Thess. 3:13 as “all His saints” (ESV, KJV, NASB, NKJV). However, the translators of the NIV, NJB, and a few others did not impose their own false presuppositions on this passage and translated it accurately as “all His holy ones” leaving the reader to decide whether it refers to angels or humans. In the LGV I translated it as “all His holy ones” and added a footnote pointing to these other passages.

1 Thes. 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Doesn't this state just the opposite of what you wrote?

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Doesn't this also?

Edited July 12, 2022 by iamlamad

[choir loft]

On 5/13/2003 at 8:37 AM, George said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

 

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the pre-trib rapture theological position.

 

Why do you believe in a pre trib rapture?

 

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

 

George

The whole RAPTURE thing is rubbish - pre, mid, post, whatever.   It is NOT based upon Biblical context nor is it logical.   

In order to believe this garbage, one must accept certain things to be true and others not true.  One that isn't accepted as true is the origin of the lie in the first place.

Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera established what is commonly known as the End Times interpretation in his book FUTURISM.  It was published near the end of the 16th century.  

FUTURISM was published as a response to the Protestant Reformation. Every single Protestant theologian of the time REJECTED IT.  The false doctrine includes the identity of the beast, the rapture, a false interpretation of the Tribulation and the true nature of the global false religion (which the Bible identifies as Catholic).

In the mid-19th century American opportunist John Nelson Darby dusted off the old RCC doctrine and added a new coat of American paint to it.  Darby called his work of plagiarism DISPENSATIONALISM.  It featured the same junk as the RCC version; rapture, antisemitic references to the tribulation and so on.  Bible publisher Scofield and evangelist D.L. Moody loved the fiction and pushed it on the American people.

One of the things that's true, but not even considered, is a quote from Jesus in Luke chapter 17.  In verses 34-37 Jesus identifies both those who would be TAKEN, by which power they would be REMOVED and where they would GO.  

They will be TAKEN, not by Rapture, but by DEMONS.  Where will they go, Jesus' disciples asked.  They will be taken to DEATH.   READ THE BIBLE.  It speaks truth.

Shall we painfully argue the point line by line thus anointing the post-modern neo-gnostic protestant church with its own venom and hate?

Interpretations of the Tribulation now hope for a Second Holocaust of murder and persecution of Jews - theoretically convincing them of the love of Jesus.   If the Nazi holocaust couldn't persuade Jews to be good Nazis, then how could a second one persuade them to join a church?   The illogic and hate language used to interpret the Tribulation is beyond any sort of appropriate language.  

Bottom line here is to state the eschatology of the post-modern neo-gnostic church is full of deliberate misquotations and false assumptions.  It ignores the context of the Bible WHICH STATES God doesn't evacuate anybody from Trouble. He sees the faithful THROUGH IT, thus establishing faith as that which God most approves.

The rapture is a doctrine of fools and cowards - not that of Godly men and women who choose to live by faith in God's deliverance THROUGH any trouble.  Did God deliver the Hebrews over the Red Sea or through it?   

Think about it.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[iamlamad]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:59 PM, choir loft said:

The whole RAPTURE thing is rubbish - pre, mid, post, whatever.   It is NOT based upon Biblical context nor is it logical.   

In order to believe this garbage, one must accept certain things to be true and others not true.  One that isn't accepted as true is the origin of the lie in the first place.

Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera established what is commonly known as the End Times interpretation in his book FUTURISM.  It was published near the end of the 16th century.  

FUTURISM was published as a response to the Protestant Reformation. Every single Protestant theologian of the time REJECTED IT.  The false doctrine includes the identity of the beast, the rapture, a false interpretation of the Tribulation and the true nature of the global false religion (which the Bible identifies as Catholic).

In the mid-19th century American opportunist John Nelson Darby dusted off the old RCC doctrine and added a new coat of American paint to it.  Darby called his work of plagiarism DISPENSATIONALISM.  It featured the same junk as the RCC version; rapture, antisemitic references to the tribulation and so on.  Bible publisher Scofield and evangelist D.L. Moody loved the fiction and pushed it on the American people.

One of the things that's true, but not even considered, is a quote from Jesus in Luke chapter 17.  In verses 34-37 Jesus identifies both those who would be TAKEN, by which power they would be REMOVED and where they would GO.  

They will be TAKEN, not by Rapture, but by DEMONS.  Where will they go, Jesus' disciples asked.  They will be taken to DEATH.   READ THE BIBLE.  It speaks truth.

Shall we painfully argue the point line by line thus anointing the post-modern neo-gnostic protestant church with its own venom and hate?

Interpretations of the Tribulation now hope for a Second Holocaust of murder and persecution of Jews - theoretically convincing them of the love of Jesus.   If the Nazi holocaust couldn't persuade Jews to be good Nazis, then how could a second one persuade them to join a church?   The illogic and hate language used to interpret the Tribulation is beyond any sort of appropriate language.  

Bottom line here is to state the eschatology of the post-modern neo-gnostic church is full of deliberate misquotations and false assumptions.  It ignores the context of the Bible WHICH STATES God doesn't evacuate anybody from Trouble. He sees the faithful THROUGH IT, thus establishing faith as that which God most approves.

The rapture is a doctrine of fools and cowards - not that of Godly men and women who choose to live by faith in God's deliverance THROUGH any trouble.  Did God deliver the Hebrews over the Red Sea or through it?   

Think about it.....

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

YOu can be left behind if you choose, and it seems that is what you have chosen.

Anyway, shame on you for posting in a pre-trib only thread.

[choir loft]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

YOu can be left behind if you choose, and it seems that is what you have chosen.

Anyway, shame on you for posting in a pre-trib only thread.

Did you read my post?  

Scripture says those who will be left behind are the BLESSED of God.  

Those that are taken are removed by DEMONS unto destruction.

Proponents of the common interpretation of rapture have already decided on the story they'll accept and use bits and pieces of scripture to justify their false doctrine.  None bother to consider Biblical CONTEXT.

This is always the way satan confuses humanity.  This has always been the way we convinced ourselves of comfortable, but false ideas.  

Read the Bible.

When Jesus' disciples asked where the people who were to be removed would be taken HIS words are the ones we need to consider;

“Where, Lord?” they asked. 

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:37)

Carcass is a simple word which means a DEAD BODY.  Look it up in any dictionary.  Vultures is a reference to birds that subsist upon dead meat.  Vultures, or eagles as it is sometimes translated refer to carrion eaters, predators, etc.  Symbolically the word here refers to demons since holy angels aren't ever associated with the dead.

The meaning here is clear, but has been reversed by those with a religious agenda to confuse and muddy the clear teaching of Holy Writ.

Read it again and consider the context.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited December 17, 2022 by choir loft