Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

29 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

FreeGrace said: 

What verses specifically describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven?  Thanks.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

In v.1, Jesus was encouraging the 11 disciples to "keep the faith".  

v.2 has already been fulfilled.  Jesus told His 11 that He was going to "prepare a place for them" in heaven, and when He ascended to heaven, He did.  And that is where all 11 are now, awaiting the resurrection of all believers which will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

In v.3 Jesus was telling the 11 that He will come back and "receive you unto Himself".  That's the resurrection of all believers.  And the last sentence in v.3 is quite similar to to v.17 in 1 Thess 4.

These verse say nothing about taking resurrected believers to heaven.

29 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice the last part of v.17.  Very similar to v.3 of John 14.  And again, nothing about Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

1 Thess 4 is about the Second Advent.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes.  Now, what point are you making in regard to when "one goes"?

This isn't what the Bible says.  In 1 Thess 4, Paul was discussing the singular resurrection of all believers, and "raised up" is a direct reference to resurrection.  It refers to the bodies of believers, who are raised up glorified and now immortal.

And there is NO "ascension" in 1 Thess 4.  Please quote any verse that describes an ascension, other than just up to the clouds in the air.  Certainly there is NO mention of going up to heaven, as the pretrib rapture theory believes.

Water baptism is an identification with Christ's death, burial and ascension.  That doesn't mean that believers have been "resurrected with Christ".  The resurrection of believers will be "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent.  1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4,5.

Water baptism is a sign of the death, burial and resurrection.  In Christ Jesus we have attained all three. We just are waiting for our ascension which is 1 Thes 4

How does one resurrect the living. That is what you think is happening here. A resurrection is for the dead. To make the living go up, they must already have had the resurrection experience So 1 Thes 4 is an ascension and not a resurrection.  

In Christ

Montana Marv 

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The second advent is when the King of kings, Jesus Christ, returns to earth to END the tribulation and set up His MK.

So that is to say that He is not here on earth now? So he is in..."heaven" then? And heaven is somewhere else...right? Is it the created heaven or the eternal heaven do you suppose? Where exactly is this heaven that He is in...from which He will return?

When He returns...will he be in a form similar to when He addressed His disciples and said "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have"...in Luke 24?

If not in that form...then how?

Tatwo...:)

 

 

[ChristB4us]

29 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

In v.1, Jesus was encouraging the 11 disciples to "keep the faith".  

v.2 has already been fulfilled.  Jesus told His 11 that He was going to "prepare a place for them" in heaven, and when He ascended to heaven, He did.  And that is where all 11 are now, awaiting the resurrection of all believers which will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

In v.3 Jesus was telling the 11 that He will come back and "receive you unto Himself".  That's the resurrection of all believers.  And the last sentence in v.3 is quite similar to to v.17 in 1 Thess 4.

These verse say nothing about taking resurrected believers to heaven.

Notice the last part of v.17.  Very similar to v.3 of John 14.  And again, nothing about Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

1 Thess 4 is about the Second Advent.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Verse 1 is Jesus bracing His 11 disciples for what is to come by believing in Him as they believe in God as He is prepping them for His ascension which was to occur after His crucifixion and resurrection so that they nor other believers reading His words will not lose heart when He had finally left.

Verse 2  is Jesus placing where those mansions shall be as in His Father's House as He is informing His disciples and all saved believers abiding in Him that He shall ascend for the purpose of preparing a place for them in His Father's House.

Verse 3 is signifying the rapture event as they will have a place in the City of God in Heaven where He signify of Him coming unto them to receive them unto Himself so that where He is now, so shall they be then.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If He is descending for the abiding believers, dead and alive, to be caught up to meet Him in the clouds to be forever with the Lord, that is Him taking them to Heaven.

Zechariah 14:1-5 has Him returning with the saints at the end of the great tribulation, touching down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two to defeat the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem.  Then after He defeats them and place Satan in the pit for a thousand years, THEN He resurrects those left behind unrepentant saints & former believers along with new believers that were killed during the great tribulation in Revelation 20:1-6.  

That means at His coming as the King of kings, He is not meeting those saints being resurrected after the great tribulation in the air when He is already on earth after defeating the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.

[FreeGrace]

34 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Water baptism is a sign of the death, burial and resurrection.  In Christ Jesus we have attained all three. We just are waiting for our ascension which is 1 Thes 4

Read 1 Thess 4.  Their is no ascension.  If so, what verse is clear about that?

34 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

How does one resurrect the living. That is what you think is happening here

What is resurrected is the DEAD body of the believer.  Read all of 1 Cor 15.

34 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

A resurrection is for the dead.

Right.  For the dead bodies.  That is what is resurrected.  Souls don't need to be resurrected.

34 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

To make the living go up, they must already have had the resurrection experience So 1 Thes 4 is an ascension and not a resurrection.  

In Christ

Montana Marv 

There is nothing about "the living going up".  And that's the whole point.  There are no verses that teach a pretrib rapture trip to heaven.

The living only "go up" to the clouds in the air to meet Jesus and all the dead saints who come back with Him at the Second Advent.  

No one goes up to heaven when resurrected.

[FreeGrace]

25 minutes ago, tatwo said:

So that is to say that He is not here on earth now? So he is in..."heaven" then?

Yes, of course Jesus is currently in heaven.  Paul was clear about that in 2 Cor 5:6,8.  To be "absent from the body" (physically DEAD) is to be "at home with the Lord", and vice versa; to be "in the body" (physically ALIVE) is to be "absent from the Lord".

Acts 3:21 says that heaven must retain, contain Jesus until the restoration of all things, which is a reference to the MK.

25 minutes ago, tatwo said:

And heaven is somewhere else...right? Is it the created heaven or the eternal heaven do you suppose? Where exactly is this heaven that He is in...from which He will return?

I don't suppose anything.  Jesus is where He always was before His incarnation.

25 minutes ago, tatwo said:

When He returns...will he be in a form similar to when He addressed His disciples and said "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have"...in Luke 24?

If not in that form...then how?

Jesus was resurrected back into His human body, complete with nail and spear wounds, which He received on the cross.  But, this time, His physical body is glorified, immortal.

That's how.

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Verse 1 is Jesus bracing His 11 disciples for what is to come by believing in Him as they believe in God as He is prepping them for His ascension which was to occur after His crucifixion and resurrection so that they nor other believers reading His words will not lose heart when He had finally left.

Sure.  What I said.  

15 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Verse 2  is Jesus placing where those mansions shall be as in His Father's House as He is informing His disciples and all saved believers abiding in Him that He shall ascend for the purpose of preparing a place for them in His Father's House.

He did that when He ascended after Acts 1:8.  He was assuring His disciples that they would have a place in heaven when THEY die.  

15 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Verse 3 is signifying the rapture event as they will have a place in the City of God in Heaven where He signify of Him coming unto them to receive them unto Himself so that where He is now, so shall they be then.

There is absolutely nothing about a rapture trip to heaven in v.3.  I think you misread.

15 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If He is descending for the abiding believers, dead and alive, to be caught up to meet Him in the clouds to be forever with the Lord, that is Him taking them to Heaven.

To say that "to be forever with the Lord" means a trip to heaven, that is just an assumption.  There is nothing in that verse showing a trip to heaven.  

15 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Zechariah 14:1-5 has Him returning with the saints at the end of the great tribulation, touching down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two to defeat the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem.  Then after He defeats them and place Satan in the pit for a thousand years, THEN He resurrects those left behind unrepentant saints & former believers along with new believers that were killed during the great tribulation in Revelation 20:1-6.

Actually, Rev 20:4-6 proves that the singular resurrection of all believers is "when He comes" back (1 Cor 15:23). m In fact, John called the resurrection of the trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection.  And there will be one more resurrection; the resurrection of all the unsaved, which will occur after all the unsaved are killed at the end of the MK, at the battle of Gog and Magog.  They will be resurrected back into their physical NON-glorified and still mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment.

When they are cast into the LOF (Rev 20:15) their physical bodies will DIE AGAIN, which is why the LOF is also called the "second death".

15 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

  That means at His coming as the King of kings, He is not meeting those saints being resurrected after the great tribulation in the air when He is already on earth after defeating the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.

Of course He will.  When He comes (1 Cor 15:23) all the saved will receive glorified immortal bodies.

So far, none of the verses you have quoted clearly show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The second advent is when the King of kings, Jesus Christ, returns to earth to END the tribulation and set up His MK.

Hi FreeGrace, What you are saying does not agree with the Word. Yes, this is commonly taught by the Christians on TV, but it is in error.

I agree that the second advent is when Jesus returns to earth to set up the Millennial kingdom. However, I do not agree that is when the tribulation is over. 

Jesus sets up the Mk at the end of the trumpets of wrath.

Revelation 7

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

But that is not the end of the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet of wrath is blown.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

So that is to say that He is not here on earth now? So he is in..."heaven" then? And heaven is somewhere else...right? Is it the created heaven or the eternal heaven do you suppose? Where exactly is this heaven that He is in...from which He will return?

When He returns...will he be in a form similar to when He addressed His disciples and said "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have"...in Luke 24?

If not in that form...then how?

Tatwo...:)

 

 

Christ is intercedeing for us before the Father as we speak. Satan is accusing us before the Father as we speak. So Christ is above with the Father. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[bloom]

13 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.