Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Diaste]

7 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Why, do you think that  our trust in the Lord is based on the timing of the Rapture? Even if it the Rapture to not come when we think, that isn't going to sink my, Shiloh's or anyone else' faith who is pre-trib.

And to be frank: do you also believe the translators for every major version of Scripture to be morons  or something? Do you believe that you discovered something that they didn't?

As for "you don't know every translator": I do know for a fact that nearly all of the major translations do not do translate it the way you do:

 

The pretrib doctrine is opposition to Christ's word. I don't care about timing other than to show only one scenario exists.

Upon further review it's seems possible the phrase is idiomatic. The 'letting' is the witholding, and the continued 'to let' is to withhold for a certain time, until 'taken out of the way' which would refer to passing the predetermined moment when 'to let' has run it's course. I can see how translators rendered this phrase the way they did, 'Katecho' could be construed as 'allow'  and 'ginomai mesos' as 'taken out of the way' is in keeping with the spirit of the preceding thoughts; the beast's true nature is revealed, replacing the covert nature, which is now gone, taking it "out of the way".  

Nothing suggests a physical removal from one place to another for any individual or group but there is obvious indication of an event in the literal Greek; "...he be taken out of the way..." refers to this event when the beast is transformed from one state to another. In the beginning the beast is not the same as he will be once the revealing occurs. The mystery of lawlessness will be revealed once the beast proclaims himself to be god, and the person he was is '...taken out of the way...' revealing the true nature and finally paving the way for the 2nd coming; "...ginomai mesos...", emerging from the midst, can have no other meaning. And it assuredly does not mean the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. Or Micheal. Or the church. The idea is emerging from the midst, not removal from one place to another.

In any case the phrase, "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." has to be understood in the context; that of the return of Jesus, the gathering, the day of Christ unable to come to pass until after the rebellion and the time when the beast proclaims himself to be God. 

I do not care what all others say or do. Appeals such as this are meaningless. Fact is more important. Look it up yourself. Get the Koine Greek, run the phrase through any or all of the Greek to English translators on the Internet, see what you find. 

 

[JoeChan82]

6 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Why, do you think that  our trust in the Lord is based on the timing of the Rapture? Even if it the Rapture to not come when we think, that isn't going to sink my, Shiloh's or anyone else' faith who is pre-trib.

I believe that what you say here is true. If there a rapture before the 7 years, great. If there is not, it will be time to rethink some things. There are a lot of people who never did any research on the subject that are going to panic either way. I want to be prepared to help the folks who panic, so I post, read the Bible, and listen to opposing views. When the time comes, we'll be fighting side by side instead of doing this.

Titus 2:11-14 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, JoeChan82 said:

I believe that what you say here is true. If there a rapture before the 7 years, great. If there is not, it will be time to rethink some things. There are a lot of people who never did any research on the subject that are going to panic either way. I want to be prepared to help the folks who panic, so I post, read the Bible, and listen to opposing views. When the time comes, we'll be fighting side by side instead of doing this.

Titus 2:11-14 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I also agree that a person's rapture viewpoint doesn't "bind them" to a specific fate.  It's a lifestyle of obedience to the teachings of Jesus that will determine whether we brought extra oil or not.  That being said, people only prepare for what they expect to encounter.  There's a reason why I have no idea how to prepare for a hurricane living here in Oklahoma.  If one happened to show up, I'd be caught flatfooted.  I'd probably survive but I might have had an easier go of it if I was expecting it and prepared for it.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I also agree that a person's rapture viewpoint doesn't "bind them" to a specific fate.  It's a lifestyle of obedience to the teachings of Jesus that will determine whether we brought extra oil or not.  That being said, people only prepare for what they expect to encounter.  There's a reason why I have no idea how to prepare for a hurricane living here in Oklahoma.  If one happened to show up, I'd be caught flatfooted.  I'd probably survive but I might have had an easier go of it if I was expecting it and prepared for it.

Dude, you're prepared for F5's. ?

[Steve Conley]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:08 PM, shiloh357 said:

No, that is not correct.  You are using the ellipses to cover over the fact that  "it will not come" is referring to the Day of the Lord, not the return of Jesus.  Those are not interchangeable terms.  The return of Jesus is only one facet of the "day of the Lord."  

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Shiloh357, Christ's arrival at His parousia initiates the day of the Lord. They cannot be separated. His parousia (arrival and continuing presence) has no stated end neither does the day (hemera) of the Lord or the day of Christ. Jesus' first coming had an end when He was received up into heaven. I know of no statement in the Scriptures which speaks of an end to Christ's second coming, His future day (hemera).

Hallelujah

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Shiloh357, Christ's arrival at His parousia initiates the day of the Lord. They cannot be separated. His parousia (arrival and continuing presence) has no stated end neither does the day (hemera) of the Lord or the day of Christ. Jesus' first coming had an end when He was received up into heaven. I know of no statement in the Scriptures which speaks of an end to Christ's second coming, His future day (hemera).

Hallelujah

No, the Day of the Lord begins at the Tribulation and culminates with the end of the millennium.

[Steve Conley]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, the Day of the Lord begins at the Tribulation and culminates with the end of the millennium.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

It's contagious, all hat, no cattle disease is spreading.

Hallelujah

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

It's contagious, all hat, no cattle disease is spreading.

Hallelujah

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[enoob57]

Imagine this all of the above for being simply what is there and letting what is there be what is there... That's like imminence we see in Scripture and in history … nothing addresses the evidence of this but pre-trib view!
Historically [snip]

The Early Church's Belief in an Imminent Rapture

Some of the early Church writers wrote about the persecution of the Tribulation as if the saints will be present. However, a number of early Christian commentaries suggested that the Church will be delivered supernaturally before the Great Tribulation. Some posttribulation writers declare that the hope of a pretribulation Rapture and deliverance from the Great Tribulation was never taught until the Plymouth Brethren began to emphasize this around 1820. As this chapter will show, there is a great deal of evidence to illustrate that some writers in the first few centuries of the Church believed in Christ rapturing the saints to deliver them from this coming Tribulation. The doctrine of the imminent Rapture was clearly taught in the New Testament and by some writers in the first centuries of the early Church. There was a difference of opinion within the early Church about the timing of the Rapture just as we find today. However, the hope of the imminent Rapture clearly existed in the writings of the early Church.

The Didache

A Church manual from approximately  A.D. 110, called the Didache, confirms the belief of these Christians in the imminent return of Christ for believers. This was written less than fifteen years after John wrote the Revelation.

In the Didache 16, we find the following instructions.
"quoted"

1. Be ye watchful for your life! Let not your lamps be extinguished nor your loins ungirded, but be ye ready! For ye know not the hour in which your Lord cometh.

2. Assemble yourselves frequently, seeking what is fitting for your souls. For the whole time of your faith will not be profitable to you, if you are not made perfect in the last time...then the world-deceiver shall appear as a son of god and shall work signs and wonders…

6. And then shall the signs of the truth appear, first the sign of a rift in heaven, then the sign of the sound of a trumpet, and thirdly, a resurrection of the dead.

7. but not of all, but as it was said, 'The Lord will come and all His saints with Him.'

8. Then shall the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven." In this short passage we see a strong belief in the imminent return of Christ: "Be ye ready! For ye know not the hour in which your Lord cometh." There is also a suggestion that the writer of the Didache was familiar with the teaching of Rev 20 that the First Resurrection of the believers will be separated from the Second Resurrection of the wicked dead by the millennial period when he talks about "the resurrection of the dead, but not of all."

After warning Christians to prepare for "the hour in which your Lord cometh," the Didache said, "Then, the world-deceiver shall appear." This order of events suggests the Rapture will precede the appearance of the world-deceiver, the Antichrist.

Hippolytus' Treatise on the Christ and Antichrist

Hippolytus, who lived from  A.D. 170 to 236, was the most brilliant of the early Christian writers. Writing in his Treatise on the Christ and Antichrist (section 66) about the Rapture he quoted extensively and approvingly from Paul's writing in 1 Thess 4:12: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." He reminds his readers of the hope of Christ's imminent return. He wrote that we should be "'looking for that blessed hope and appearing of our God and Savior' when having raised the saints among us, He will rejoice with them glorifying the Father."

The Epistles of Cyprian

Cyprian lived from  A.D. 200 to 258, and wrote extensively on Christian doctrine. In his Epistle 55, chapter 7, he wrote about his belief in Christ's ability to deliver the Church from the Antichrist's tribulation. "Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecutions, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands." Cyprian's declaration that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his [Antichrist's] hands" suggests the possibility of the Church being raptured before the Tribulation period. It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands."

Cyprian quoted Paul's prophecy about the translation of the saints, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him" (1 Thess 4:13). Speaking of the immanency of the Rapture, he wrote, "Who would not crave to be changed and transformed into the likeness of Christ and to arrive more quickly to the dignity of heavenly glory." After telling his readers that the coming resurrection was the hope of the Christian, he points out that the Rapture should motivate us as we see the last days approaching. Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible." Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom" (Treatises of Cyprian - 21 to 26).

Victorinus - Commentary of the Apocalypse

Victorinus, bishop of Petau, lived from  A.D. 240 till his martyrdom during the last great persecution in  A.D. 304. In his Commentary on the Apocalypse he interpreted chapter 6 of the Revelation to promise the deliverance of the Church from the tribulation period. "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places.' Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution." In his comments on chapter 15, Victorinus wrote, "'And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst." These comments reveal that this second century pastor also understood that the saints would be "removed" to escape the wrath of God "when the Church shall have gone out of the midst" of the coming tribulation.

The Shepherd of Hermes

Another example from the early decades of the second century is the writing known as The Shepherd of Hermes (A.D. 130). This book, as all writings outside the Bible, has no authority in terms of teaching doctrine. However, as an example of writing widely read by Christians in the period shortly after the death of the Apostles, it provides evidence of how some early Christians viewed the return of Christ. Part of this apocalyptic vision focused on the church's deliverance from the tribulation. The writer, after escaping a huge terrifying beast with four colors on its head (white, red, black and gold), met a virgin in his vision, "like a bride going forth from a bride-chamber, all in white...I recognized from the former visions that it was the church." The virgin explained that he escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden colour stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing." Despite the unusual details of this so-called vision, it clearly conveys the understanding of this early Christian writer that the faithful Church is promised a supernatural escape from the great tribulation. When posttribulationists make the claim that no one ever presented a pretribulation Rapture before 1830, they display their ignorance of a great deal of the history of prophetic interpretation. The French writer Joubert wrote: "Nothing makes men so imprudent and conceited as ignorance of the past and a scorn for old books."

Lactantius' Commentary on the Apocalypse

In Lactantius' Commentary on the Apocalypse (second century A.D.), he wrote about Rev 6:14: "'And the heaven withdrew to be rolled away', that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands were moved from their places.' Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution." While this passage is not definitive, it suggests through the words, "the Church shall be taken away" an anticipation of a supernatural Rapture of the Church from apocalyptic persecutions (probably the Tribulation period). Note that none of these writers quoted here suggests that the Church will experience the Great Tribulation and the Mark of the Beast system of the Antichrist.

The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles

Most scholars accept that this writing was composed before  A.D. 120 and therefore indicates early Church attitudes. While this writing was never accepted as part of the canon of the New Testament its widespread popularity suggests that its ideas were held by many. Regarding the anticipation of the imminent return of Christ, consider this passage from chapter 16. "Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh."

The Epistle of Barnabas

An epistle to the church at Corinth was written around  A.D. 100 by someone named Barnabas. Although modern scholars reject the position that this Barnabas was the companion of Paul, the early Church believed that Paul's fellow worker wrote this book. Regardless of who wrote this letter, it represents one of the earliest writings of the Christians outside the New Testament. The writer certainly expected the Lord to come shortly as he indicated in these passages (chapter 4). "The final stumbling block approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, 'For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance...We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God." Barnabas concluded his chapter 20 with these words: "On this account there will be a resurrection...For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil (one). The Lord is near, and His reward." This epistle clearly conveys the writer's hope of the imminent return of Christ to take the saints to heaven.

The First Epistle of Clement

Clement, a Gentile who became bishop of Rome, was a fellow laborer with the Apostle Paul at Philippi in  A.D. 57. He lived from  A.D. 30 to 100 and witnessed the explosive growth of the New Testament Church. In his first Epistle to the Corinthians he criticized the doubters who were expressing their disbelief in Christ's return because of the long delay since Christ's resurrection. In chapter 23 he wrote: "Far from us be that which is written, 'Wretched are they who are of a double mind, and of a doubting heart; who say, These things we have heard even in the times of our fathers; but, behold, we have grown old and none of them has happened unto us. Ye foolish ones.'" Comparing God's time to the time it takes a tree to mature, Clement then concludes with a clear expression of his belief in the imminency of the return of Christ that he had learned from the Apostle Paul. "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry;' and, 'The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look.'"

The Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught Three Hundred Years Ago

Many writers ignorantly assert that the pretribulation Rapture theory was invented in 1820. While the clearest statement of the pretribulation position was articulated by N. Darby at that time, they ignore these writings of the early Christians that anticipate Christ's coming to deliver His saints before the Tribulation period. Furthermore, many of these writers are ignorant of the other men who developed a clearer understanding of the Rapture in the centuries before 1820. Very few ideas appear out of nowhere. These concepts are usually "in the air" and are discussed for decades before someone publishes a manuscript.

Peter Jurieu

Peter Jurieu was a French Calvinist preacher and was considered "the Goliath of the French Protestants." He wrote in A.D. 1687 about the Rapture and the premillennial return of Christ. Jurieu discussed the coming of Jesus to translate the saints prior to the time He returns in judgment. He preached in Rotterdam as one of the greatest of the Reformers in his day. I found his rare and fascinating book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church, in a small bookstore in Wales. In his

book, Jurieu refuted the amillennial teaching of his day and clearly argued for the premillennial position regarding Christ's return. He also believed that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the Battle of Armageddon. While his teaching in this area was tentative, his book disproves the theory of the posttribulation teachers that assert that the pretribulation Rapture was first invented by Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. As my research indicates, the pretribulation Rapture was articulated in both the New Testament, the writings of some of the Ante-Nicene Fathers and Peter Jurieu, long before 1820.

Over one hundred and thirty years before Darby, Jurieu spoke of a secret Rapture, "a kind of a clandestine coming of Christ" prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon. In chapter 24:8:1 he wrote of John's prophecy about the Millennium, "The saints shall reign with Christ a thousand years." He commented, "But to me it seems very evident that this reign shall begin with some miraculous appearance of our Lord in His glory. After which He shall go back to Heaven." Expanding on his interpretation, he wrote, "There is a first coming of Christ, and it may be a first Resurrection. Lastly, who can be certain, that this coming of Christ, to establish His Kingdom upon Earth, shall not be in that manner, with the voice of an Arch-angel, and in great magnificence and Glory? Who can prove, that at that first coming of Christ He shall not raise some of the dead, as St. John seems expressly to have fore-told?"

Writing directly about the coming Rapture he compared it to the resurrection of the Old Testament saints when Christ rose from the grave. He asked, "Why may not Christ raise some of the New Testament Saints, at the coming of His Kingdom, as well as raise some of the ancient patriarchs, when He arose from the grave?" Jurieu rejected the view that Christ will stay in heaven until the final judgment of the world. He suggested that Christ will first "come down from heaven" in the air in "a glorious apparition, returning to heaven." While these comments are not conclusive, they do suggest that the idea of Christ coming in the air for His saints prior to Armageddon was under discussion over three hundred years ago. As the Reformers adopted a literal approach to interpreting the Bible's prophecies, they began to notice that the Rapture was a separate and earlier event from Christ's coming to defeat the forces of Antichrist at Armageddon. [snip]

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Well, I took you up on your challenge to "look it up" (after I had done so repeatedly already)...  and you just sank your entire ship.

What you and your friends here forgot is a little something called grammatical gender; in Koine Greek (as well as some other languages) it is where nouns have "masculine", "feminine" or "neutral" genders. While in 2 Thess. 2:6, the word katechon is used ( κατέχον ), it is used as a neutral gender in the present tense. But in 2 Thess. 2:7, the word used is katechōn,  which is nearly the same, but is ( κατέχων) in Koine Greek. The word used in this way has a masculine gender to it, and thus describes a person.

As I said previously:  the sentence can change the words used as well as the inflections; in this case, the gender of the words used indicate that in usage in verse 2:7, the gender becomes male and is a person.

Additionally, Paul says in 2 Thess. 2 that the Restrainer would continue in that role until He literally takes Himself out of the midst". This translation is demanded by the middle voice of the Greek verb used. Immediately following the Restrainer removing Himself, the Antichrist will be revealed; the masculine participle is also in the present tense. So, literally translating it: "Only He who is now restraining will keep doing so until He takes Himself out of the way, that the Lawless One will be revealed".

So with all that said, let's re-examine the characteristics of the Restrainer:

- Has to be supernatural to perform the task given from Paul's time until now;

- Must be both a global influence as well as a person (omnipresent);

- Needs to be powerful in order to hold back both apostasy and the Antichrist

- Needs to have a logical reason for restraining lawlessness and the man who is lawless

- Has to have a logical reason for halting said restraint on the Antichrist and lawlessness that is in sync with Scripture.

 

I know you believe all of what you said. You even think it's unimpeachable truth, no doubt. Kudos to you. Conviction is a good thing.

You'll see. We will all see.

When it comes I'll be here.