Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Last Daze]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

 It has nothing to do with will. 

Exactly.

[HAZARD]

16 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Yet Christ Himself says He comes after,go figure.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

When did He say?

Only way you can even come close to a rapture in scripture is to twist it,example from above,I rest my case!!!

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order
that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you many be accounted worthy to escape all these things of,  Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3 are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture.. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Davida said:

Because you have not listened to anything I any of us have said but keep telling us what our motivation is etc.... 

Motivation to do what? 

[Steve Conley]

On 6/24/2018 at 6:17 AM, Sojourner414 said:

No; only one Gospel, as there ever was. That to be saved, one has to trust in God's provision to save them. God promised a Savior from the beginning, and in the Messiah coming to earth, that provision is the Lord Jesus Christ. To be saved, one had to trust and believe in Him alone as as their Lord and Savior; that does not change.

What does change is that God once again deals with the Jews, and the 144,000 are representative of this. With the Church removed, the 144,000 become evangelists to the world, preaching Christ resurrected, and at their darkest hour, the remnant of Israel believes and "mourns the one they pierced", as prophecy speaks. That is when, at Armageddon, the Lord returns with all the saints and the hosts of heaven, wipes out the Antichrist's armies, and sets up His kingdom. 

One thing to keep in mind as well about all of this is the role Satan plays in this: God made promises to Israel, and Satan figures that if he can destroy Israel before God can keep those promises (and before Israel fulfills her duties as outlined in Daniel 9), then Satan will have made God out to be a liar, and in his mind, will have "destroyed God".

Of course, Satan doesn't succeed; he's way in over his head and actually playing into the Lord's hands.

This is why the Church has to be out of the way: God can either deal with the Church, or deal with Israel, but He is not going to deal with both at once. Both have eternal destinies, and both have to trust in the Lord for salvation. The difference is that Israel has certain promises made to her that must be kept, and the Church has certain promises made to her that must be kept as well.  Both will be in eternity, united as one once the New Heavens and Earth are in place. But in the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ, Israel will be at the front of the nations before the Lord, and the Church will rule with the Lord as was promised for both in prophecy.

3

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

So...4, I see you have God all figured out. In your estimation, He can only deal with one chosen people at a time, first the Jew, then the Church, then the Jew again. You say God stopped dealing with the Jews at Pentecost. If that is true, then who was God dealing with in 70 AD at the destruction of the Temple? If that is true, who has God been provoking to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles. If that is true, then how do you explain the resurrection of the nation of Israel and the Israelites returning to their land. All these took place in the "Age of Grace" or "the Church Age".

All praise, honour, and glory be unto ourLord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by George
Removed the personal comments (please don't accuse someone of not knowing God if they are in opposition on different views of prophecy)

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Sounds to me like you neither know God nor the Holy Scriptures as well as you think. But you do have the pre-trib system down pretty good. Read your Bible! Read your Bible! Read your Bible!

The Scriptures gives no, no, no exact time for the Rapture.  It will come like a thief, and will come without notice.  For only God the Father knows the time in which Jesus, the Bridegroom, will come for His Bride.  So it is not in Scripture, Don't try to fabricate something which is unattainable.  Scripture cannot replace Scripture.  So none of your preconceived thoughts and theories can position your belief in your time frame, thus it will not work.  It is not there   Pre-Trib, Pre 70th Week, whatever wording one wants to use, is the only position in which we have no idea of when it will happen or begin.  But once it begins the clock begins ticking down to Armageddon, and the Second Coming.

If you can quote me one Scripture for a Post, Pre -Wrath or Mid - Trib position for the Rapture, I can then call you God the Father, or just a liar.  Which title would you prefer.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[n2thelight]

On 6/24/2018 at 6:17 AM, Sojourner414 said:

This is why the Church has to be out of the way: God can either deal with the Church, or deal with Israel, but He is not going to deal with both at once. Both have eternal destinies, and both have to trust in the Lord for salvation. The difference is that Israel has certain promises made to her that must be kept, and the Church has certain promises made to her that must be kept as well.  Both will be in eternity, united as one once the New Heavens and Earth are in place. But in the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ, Israel will be at the front of the nations before the Lord, and the Church will rule with the Lord as was promised for both in prophecy.

Here's the problem with that,Jew's nor anyone else has special relations with God unless you are in Christ,which most Jew's are not.

There's only two choices,Christ or satan,period...

Even the Jew's must believe in Christ,if not they are cut off from their own tree.

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by n2thelight

[n2thelight]

Israel is whomever believes in Christ

[Steve Conley]

there's no room, no place and no purpose for the Church to be in the Tribulation.

On 6/24/2018 at 4:19 AM, Sojourner414 said:

lishedQuote

Show me one verse in scrpture that says that chapter(Matt 24)was written to just Jew's

I can show you two:

" And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split." (Matthew 27:51, NASB, emphasis mine)

" For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. " (Hebrews 9:15-22, NASB, emphasis mine)

Until the Lord died at the Cross, there could be no Church; the covenant was not in effect at that point. In Matthew 10, Jesus had directed His disciples not to go to the Gentiles, but to Israel with the Gospel. So since the Kingdom was being offered to them first, then any message Jesus had would be directed to them first.

With the splitting of the veil, the Lord was now no longer dealing specifically with the Jews, and would soon begin to deal with both Jew and Gentile under a new program.

One last thing you are forgetting here is that the Jews still have 6 holy obligations to the Lord they must fulfill, as outlined in Daniel 9:

“ “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” " (Daniel 9:24-27, NASB, emphasis mine)

The Church cannot fulfill these obligations; only the Jews can.  And that will be cut off when the Antichrist comes in and sets up the Abomination of Desolation, as referenced in this passage as well as in this one:

" Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. “Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! “But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." (Daniel 12:5-13, NASB, emphasis mine)

Simply: there's no room, no place and no purpose for the Church to be in the Tribulation. Daniel did not reference the Church when He wrote those chapters, and Jesus did not reference the Church when He quoted Daniel. Matthew 24-25 and Luke 21 reference israel during that time, and are instructions to Jews when the end-times unfold. 

6

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

So...4, you grossly misinterpret Dan 9:24. It says nothing of any holy obligations that the Jews must fulfil. These six things are accomplished by God concerning Israel and Jerusalem. They are not accomplished by Israel.

It appears that your interpretation is driven by the need to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures. So, you attempt to create a scenario which would make one plausible (in your mind) even though there is no explicit statement of a pre-trib rapture in all of the Holy Scriptures.

Concerning your statement that "there's no room, no place and no purpose for the Church to be in the Tribulation." That is in contradiction to the statements of Christ, Paul, Peter, and John. Each of them have more or less to say about the place and purpose of the church in the first and second portions of the seventieth week known as the beginning of sorrows and the great tribulation.

First, they all teach that the church remains upon the earth until Christ's coming (parousia) which follows the unprecedented persecution of the church.

The second coming (second parousia) involves Christ's arrival and continuing presence. At His arrival, every eye shall see Him (Rev 1:7). The earth dwellers shall hide in fear, but the remaining saints (church, elect) shall behold Him in the clouds of heaven with His mighty angels and take heart. Christ shall then in a moment of time resurrect the dead saints and change those who endured to the end of the great tribulation. Then He shall send His angels to gather us to himself in the clouds. From there we are escorted to the Fathers house where we are presented before the throne. After this God begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipping, earth dwellers.

Second, each of them teach that we have been called to partake in Christ's sufferings through persecution.

The great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the last generation of the church and Israel.

Hallelujah

 

[Steve Conley]

41 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The Scriptures gives no, no, no exact time for the Rapture.  It will come like a thief, and will come without notice.  For only God the Father knows the time in which Jesus, the Bridegroom, will come for His Bride.  So it is not in Scripture, Don't try to fabricate something which is unattainable.  Scripture cannot replace Scripture.  So none of your preconceived thoughts and theories can position your belief in your time frame, thus it will not work.  It is not there   Pre-Trib, Pre 70th Week, whatever wording one wants to use, is the only position in which we have no idea of when it will happen or begin.  But once it begins the clock begins ticking down to Armageddon, and the Second Coming.

If you can quote me one Scripture for a Post, Pre -Wrath or Mid - Trib position for the Rapture, I can then call you God the Father, or just a liar.  Which title would you prefer.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, we can know what God has revealed to us. Paul lets us know that the day of the Lord, which is initiated by Christ's arrival at His coming, will catch the unbelieving world like a thief in the night catches a homeowner unawares. However, he clearly says that the day will not catch the believer like a thief, for we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. In fact, Jesus gives us signs to look for which will indicate that the day is approaching.  The abomination of desolation will indicate that the unprecedented persecution has commenced. The persecution shall be most severe and many shall fall away from the faith. The celestial sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark coupled with a mega earthquake will indicate that the unprecedented persecution is over and that the remaining believers should look up and lift up their heads for their redemption draweth nigh.

What you present is an understanding that is contrary to the very harmony of the Scriptures. Christ has told us, His friends, what He is going to do. Although we are not told, and therefore do not know the day nor hour, the times and seasons are fully within the present level of God's revelation to us. He has told us to watch and what to watch for. Knowing this we look for Jesus, our blessed hope, who shall appear in glory for all the world to see.

Hallelujah

 

[Steve Conley]

4 hours ago, Davida said:

Too bad you missed what Sojourner explained so well.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I read and responded to So...4's presentation of the pre-trib/dispensational system so well crafted by Darby and those that came after him. However, when one simply reads their Bible unscriptural ideas are exposed.

Hallelujah 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Steve Conley