Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

The thing is: it never says anything about that, we just go from verse 1 to 2 really. But really, I don't think that we'll really know this side of eternity and will only find out for sure when the Lord reveals it clearly for us to see.

It does according to many Hebrew expositors.  But I fully concur that we will not be certain this side of eternity.

[Uriah]

20 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

"We will be like the angels."

What JESUS revealed in Luke 20:35-36 is a proof that the nature of His people or members of His true Church will be changed.  

Paul the Apostle give us a good understanding of this changing through the message he sent to the Church of Philippians: Philippians 3:v.20-21: 

20 For our conversation is in heaven (celestial places in Christ- Check it in Ephesians 1:v.3); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able (by His word) even to subdue all things unto Himself.       (As we can see, it is very easy to understand the changing of our nature in the kingdom of God.  The most interesting is that this changing will be by the Power of the Word of God, it will not be a magic, it will actually be worked.  To the Church of Corinthians, Paul Apostle did write: 1 Cor.15:v.51-55

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment ... at the last trump (the last message): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.   (By the Power of the Word of God.  The Word is God)

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

"Hence procreating by angels"   -   procreation by angels

There was a population of angels in Eden, but they fell because disobeyd God. They fell means their celestial nature was changing to a carnal or animal  nature. Jude, the brother of James, give us a deep revelation about this changing of angels's nature to carnal and animal. Jude 1:v.5-7

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

for better understandig, 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate  (kept not their FIRST (celestial) state), but left their own habitation (left their own celestial nature), He (God) hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the Great Day.   (This Great Day is a right time and it has just arrived)

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after *strange flesh (going after a carnal or animal life) , are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

*strange flesh -  in my understanding, strange flesh means carnal nature, it means the flesh of them which were were not angels and dwelt out of the Garden of Eden or Garden of God, exactly where Cain knew his wife  when he went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the East of Eden.

Having said this, I would like to remember that now, even now, the changing will run in a inverse process, from a carnal nature for a celestial nature, in accord that are exposed above.  I would like to remember also, that Satan will be cast down into the bottomless pit,  that he should deceive the nations no more. 

"Sons of God"

While Inside the Garden of Eden, the sons of God had a celestial or heavenly nature, after the fall their nature was changed.

"earth covered with waters"

About the earth covered with waters, if it be analyzed very very deeply what is written in Gen.1, as you suggest, I must say that from the point of view of the Scriptures, "waters", even in Genesis 1, are not H2O as the theorists interpret and teach. Waters, in Gen.1, if analyzed within Scriptures, mean peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (Revelation 17:15) There were peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues, in and out of the Garden of Eden, the Garden of God, as show Scriptures or the own Genesis 4. 

Wow, what bible are you reading?  

NKJV-did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode,

NLT-  angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged

NIV- angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling

ESV- angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling

And on and on. Please explain HOW spirits can have sex with physical creatures (Humans) when these spirits have no BODY!

Not only that but v.7 is referring back to v.4, NOT angels but those "ungodly men". A little reading comprehension is in order here.

And so in GEnesis, water doesn't mean water? The scripture means what it says. Gen. 1:9-And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 

THIS IS THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE YOU REFER TO! You just cannot make the scriptures say what you wnat it to say.

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, PepperS said:

Matthew 24 sums it up for me. Post Trib it is. Jesus said it, I believe it.

Amen!

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, PepperS said:

Matthew 24 sums it up for me. Post Trib it is. Jesus said it, I believe it.

Exactly, no reason to over-complicate things.  And may we all be ready to persevere in the faith, and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

[Steve Conley]

On 10/23/2018 at 8:25 PM, Uriah said:

Wow, what bible are you reading?  

NKJV-did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode,

NLT-  angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged

NIV- angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling

ESV- angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling

And on and on. Please explain HOW spirits can have sex with physical creatures (Humans) when these spirits have no BODY!

Not only that but v.7 is referring back to v.4, NOT angels but those "ungodly men". A little reading comprehension is in order here.

And so in GEnesis, water doesn't mean water? The scripture means what it says. Gen. 1:9-And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 

THIS IS THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE YOU REFER TO! You just cannot make the scriptures say what you wnat it to say.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, It may seem weird to you, but it doesn't change the fact that angels left their created habitation (spiritual bodies) and took them wives of the daughters of men and from them were born giants. The Bible and all the ancient historical records before Julius Africanus in the 3rd century AD identified the sons of God in Gen 6 as fallen angels. Africanus didn't like the ridicule received for believing something so supernatural, so he introduced the more palatable teaching which has become known as the godly line of Seth. That's where this foolishness began. The son's of God were angels. All the ancient teachings of the Jews bear witness to this. In fact, the Septuagint translates "bane eloheem" with "angelos".

Concerning how spirits can cohabitate with physical creatures, angels can take physical form. Some examples would be: The residents of Sodom wanted to physically abuse the angels that came to rescue Lot. It has been said that we should be careful to entertain strangers because angels visit us unawares, that is without being recognized as angels.

There is a difference between being able to bring about conception and needing to reproduce to maintain your kind. Angels are immortal, they don't need to reproduce, but they can.

We are way off topic, but you are way off on this matter. I thought I might be able to spur you to further study.

Glory to Jesus Christ

[Uriah]

13 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, It may seem weird to you, but it doesn't change the fact that angels left their created habitation (spiritual bodies) and took them wives of the daughters of men and from them were born giants. The Bible and all the ancient historical records before Julius Africanus in the 3rd century AD identified the sons of God in Gen 6 as fallen angels. Africanus didn't like the ridicule received for believing something so supernatural, so he introduced the more palatable teaching which has become known as the godly line of Seth. That's where this foolishness began. The son's of God were angels. All the ancient teachings of the Jews bear witness to this. In fact, the Septuagint translates "bane eloheem" with "angelos".

Concerning how spirits can cohabitate with physical creatures, angels can take physical form. Some examples would be: The residents of Sodom wanted to physically abuse the angels that came to rescue Lot. It has been said that we should be careful to entertain strangers because angels visit us unawares, that is without being recognized as angels.

There is a difference between being able to bring about conception and needing to reproduce to maintain your kind. Angels are immortal, they don't need to reproduce, but they can.

We are way off topic, but you are way off on this matter. I thought I might be able to spur you to further study.

Glory to Jesus Christ

The "angels" who left their habitation left heaven! As for the sons of God, we too are called the sons of God, as was Adam called such. Therefore it fits that those who were once holy and righteous "fell" (into corruption)  and there are those who read it differently, as in the interlinear lexicon-נְפִיל nᵉphîyl, nef-eel'; or נְפִל nᵉphil; from H5307; properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant:—giant. 

This makes more sense, tyrants who made large harems to start what would be clanism, something God was apparently against. His plan was one man and one woman to make families.  The fact that the phrase "sons of God" is repeated in Job can be viewed as evidence of ancient usage of a meaning that has been lost meaning people like Job himself. Consider how people in Catholicism use the word "saints" vs how the scriptures do.

It nowhere says the angels changed into physical beings, which is what you need to happen to have sex with physical beings.

Bringing Lot into the discussion makes little sense. We do not rely on a gang of deluded homosexuals to make doctrine for us. Where oh where do you see that angels CAN reproduce. 

JESUS says they cannot! Hebrews speaks of angels....Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Luke 24:39- Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is why we see people POSESSED by evil spirits (angels) because they cannot have a body. There was only ONE incarnation...JESUS!

Edited October 25, 2018 by Uriah

[Uriah]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Ahahah you're kidding. You quoted four versions of Scriptures and ask me: what bible are you reading?  You did forget of the version KJV

 

Oh Uriah, it seems to me that you know only the letter of Scriptures, but not the Spirit. Remember: There are three that  bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.   Oh Uriah, the letters kill, but the Spirit gives life.  I see that you did not understand the Scriptures that I have exposed in my post above.  

 

The verse 4 is linked with the verse 5 exclusively. 

The verse 7 is linked with the verse 6, as follow:

Verse 6 :  The ANGELS which kept not their first estate  (kept not their FIRST (celestial) state), but left their own habitation (left their own celestial nature), He (God) hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment of the Great Day.  Verse 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha ...in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after *strange flesh ... (human flesh),    While Inside the Garden of Eden, the sons of God (ANGELS) had a celestial or heavenly nature, after the fall giving themselves over to fornication their nature was changed like man made of the dust of the earth. 

 

Uriah, remember:  There was only darkness was upon the face of the deep. But the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Scriptures (not myself in particular) reveal that waters are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (Revelation 17:15)   If you do not believe in this Scripture , it is of you.  There was only darkness, then God said: Let there be light: and there was light.    (God is light. God meant: Be I known of the peoples, and nations, and crowds, and tongues)

Afterwards God said: "... let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament (heaven), and divided the waters which were under the firmament (heaven) from the waters which were above the firmament(heaven): and it was so.   (This revelation shows us peoples, and multitudes of all nations and tongues, which are in the light of God and are placed in the heaven (firmament) , and shows also peoples, and multitudes of all nations and tongues which are or remained in the darkness). 

It is impossible to understand the Spirit of God if the interpretation be by the letter, the letter kills.

No need for me to quote KJV...you already did! The habitation the angels left was heaven. This was seen in Genesis with ONE angel in the garden...Lucifer. How do you go about forcing the context of one verse into another that is unrelated? Oh, because it has one word in each verse? we could have some fun with that.See my post above.

[Uriah]

Wow Oseas, I can hardly keep up with that. You cover a lot of stuff all at once...pretty advanced. I'll be watching out for that bro. 

For now I'll stick with the thread topic of post trib.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/25/2018 at 11:22 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, Uriah it is not this. Heaven? What is heaven, Uriah?  Lets try to understanding better what is heaven. You know: God created several heavens. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and the Heaven of the heavens. Do not you know that you are within one of these several heavens? So I ask to you: In what of these heavens are you? In the 1st? or in the 2nd? In the 3rd certainly you are not, because the  3rd heaven needs to be established here yet,  and it will be established here when the kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, as is written in Rev. 11:v.15. Then will fulfil LITERALLY what our Lord JESUS said: Luke 20:35-36

35  But they (the true Christians, the true believers) which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (the next world), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.   Then will fulfil also what Paul the Apostle taught, saying: 1Cor.15:51-54

Behold, I shew you a mystery; . . . we shall all be changed, . . . at the last Trump: for the Trumpet shall sound, (yea, the Trumpet shall sound) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

For better understanding of this great mystery, look what Paul said to the Philippians: 3:20-21 

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall CHANGE our VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

(Yea, our conversation is in HEAVEN of course, BUT I ASK AGAIN Uriah: in which of the heavens are we talking even now, Uriah? In the 1st or in the 2nd heaven?  I'll give you a clue (among others) to help you to answer my question and say in what heaven we are: Check it out in Ephesians 1:v.3)

 

The HEAVEN in which we are in this present time is contaminated by the Devil, in other words, contaminated by the Red Dragon and his angels.

Rev. 12:3-4

v.3 And there appeared another wonder in HEAVEN (yea, in HEAVEN); and behold a great red Dragon, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his (7) heads.

       (7 heads and 10 horns? These two parts are of the body of the Devil in the SAME heaven in which we are living, whose two parts are linked with the Great Whore that rides upon the Beast that did rise up out of the sea (waters) as is written in Revelation 13:v.1-10, i.e. these two parts did rise up out of the middle of the peoples, and nations, and multitudes, and tongues.)

v.4 And his TAIL (who are the TAIL of the red Dragon? Is.9:v.15-16) drew the third part of the stars of HEAVEN (Who are the stars? See who are them in Dan.12:v.3), and did cast them to the earth (why does the Devil cast them to the earth? it because they were deceived and defeated by the Devil): and the Dragon (Satan that is in HEAVEN) stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to DEVOUR her child (to devour spiritually by the tail: How? The answer is in Isa. 9:15-16) as soon as it was born.     (Satan could not to DEVOUR the man child because God - the Word is God - caught up him to His throne.    Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of God's throne.  The Man child Judges and makes War)

Well, if you Uriah and all my brothers here in this Christian forum and in everywhere do not be ready to fight against the body of the read Dragon WITHIN HEAVEN in this time of Apocalypse, awake and be careful to be not DEVOURED by the red Dragon, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, and his angels, which deceives the whole world: He will be cast out from HEAVEN into the earth, and his angels will be cast out with him. 

There will be persecution against the people of God.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 

Shalom, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira.

You've presented some very interesting questions! And, these questions are answerable.

"Heaven? What is heaven...? " Simply put, "heaven" is the "sky":

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

So, when we read 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, make the substitution BEFORE you make an interpretation!

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third SKY. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

It would also be a good idea to learn about "paradise":

3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.

6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park -- forest, orchard.

Notice that "paradise" is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word, not a translation! That is, it was changed letter by letter from Greek to English:

pi -> p,
alpha -> a,
rho -> r,
alpha -> a,
delta -> d,
epsilon-iota diphthong which makes the long "i" sound -> i,
sigma -> s, drop the ending, and
add an ending silent e to make the "i" long. 

The TRANSLATION of the Greek word is simply "a park," specifically "an orchard," that is, "a park of trees."

Now, let's look at another place where the word "paradise" is found:

Revelation 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So, where is this "paradise of God?"

Revelation 21:1-22:5 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

We've been told that "the first heaven is 'of clouds,' the second heaven is 'of stars,' and the third heaven is 'God's abode," as is written in the center margin of page 1239 in the Scofield Reference Edition of the King James Version of the Bible, but what if I told you that there is a BETTER understanding of this "third heaven" or "third sky?" Why listen to Cyrus I. Scofield or to the people from whom he inherited this theory, when you can listen to PETER, Yeshua`s (Jesus') main disciple and apostle?

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (the FLOOD): 7 But the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the FIRE during the time of the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:8-15).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of personsought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (Greek: hoi ouranoi = "the skies") being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (Greek: kainous ... ouranous = "new skies") and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, the first heavens were the skies of the earth before the FLOOD.
Then, the global FLOOD occurred, destroying the earth with its skies.
The second heavens are the skies which are now, which God re-formed after the FLOOD and in which we live before the FIRE.
Then, the global FIRE will occur, destroying the earth again with its skies.
Finally, the third heavens will be the skies which God will re-form AFTER the FIRE.

This matches what we read in Revelation chapters 20 through 22. Why not take Peter's word over that of Scofield or anyone else?

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh! how simply is to say: "heaven" is the "sky".  But, is it true? No, it is not true.  Heaven is not the infinite physical space of Universe, absolutely.  The environment of heaven has nothing to do with the environment of the physical space of Universe.  What I must say being within of heaven is that the Word created -the Word is God,  God Father - several heavens by the Word made flesh - JESUS - God Son - the express image of God Father,  by whom also He made the worlds.  Even here in this heaven, through faith we understand that the worlds were created by the Word of God - the Word is God - , so that things WHICH ARE SEEN were not made of things which do appear. By the way, there are several heavens and not only one.  There is the 1st, and the 2nd, and the 3rd heavens, and the heaven of the heavens, do you understand?  I am speaking with you from the 2nd heaven, the same heaven where was Paul the Apostle,  and from which he ascended to the 3rd heaven. Keep in mind, these things have nothing to do with "sky" or physical space of Universe, of  course, as you can see by the Word of Him that created the heavens.   Genesis 1:v.7-8 

Shalom, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira.

Would you PLEASE take the time to read what I wrote? I'm not even saying that "heaven" is the universe! I'm saying that "heaven" is the earth's ATMOSPHERE!

First, let's get something straight: It's extremely important that one be EXACT in both his quotes of the Scriptures and in his understanding (including definitions) of those Scriptures! The Word of God is NOT the same as God [the] Father! To the contrary, even in the teaching of the Trinity, the two are separate PERSONS in the Godhead! If the two were exactly the same, then Yeshua` ("Jesus") would be guilty of talking to Himself, because He frequently talked to His Father in prayer, even when others weren't around!

John 1:1-3 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word was made flesh (John 1:14) and was named "Yeshua`" for "He shall save" His people from their sins. This is a statement of the Person who is separate from God the Father.

John 1:14 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV)

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous, a transliteration of Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = "He shall rescue/deliver/save"): for he shall save his people from their sins.

That being said, NOW we can move on....

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

7 And God made the firmament (heaven) (in the MIDST of the waters), and divided (separated)  the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 

8 And God called the firmament Heaven (God made the firmament which He called HEAVEN in the MIDST of the waters, NOT IN THE SKY or in the Physical space of Universe).  And the evening and the morning were the second Day.   (Second Day = Two thousand years, one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day.)

A proper understanding of these verses, which you have quoted, is fundamental to this discussion.

Genesis 1:2 (KJV)

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Picture a planet that has no atmosphere, per se, but only water, H2O, upon its surface. THEN, we read the following:

Genesis 1:6-7 (KJV)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament (Hebrew: raqiya` = "an expanse")  in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 

GASES "expand!" So, now this planet has an atmosphere of gases that is formed between waters below this expanse and the waters above this expanse! All of this is still on the surface of this planet! THEN, we read:

Genesis 1:8 (KJV)

8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Hebrew: shaamaayim = a dual word meaning "(two) skies"). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

NOW, God gives this expanse of gases a name: "(two) skies," still talking about the atmosphere of gases in between the waters above and below!

On a separate matter, it's also important to go back and READ what was written between these verses:

WHY did God call this expanse of gases "(two) skies?" because of what we've read between:

Genesis 1:3-5 (KJV)

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God had created light (which we now recognize as photonic energy consisting of packets of energy we call "photons") among the darkness and separated the two. God called the PERIOD of light "Day" (Hebrew: Yowm). The PERIOD of darkness He called "Night" (Hebrew: Laaylaah). Together, they constituted the first cycle of light/darkness, which we know as a 24-hour cycle.

The last sentence is about the transitions! The evening (Hebrew: `erev) was the changing of light to darkness, and the morning (Hebrew: bokeer) was the changing of darkness to light. Thus, the first day was period of light between these events, and because the darkness was before there was light, the time sequence in Jewish reckoning is "evening and then morning," thus the Jewish day begins at sundown.

The reason, then, why God called the expanse of gases "(two) skies" is because there is a daytime sky and a nighttime sky.

DON'T drag 2 Peter 3:8 into this! That's RIPPING the verse out of its context (2 Peter 3) and FORCING it to apply in an area that was NEVER meant to be controlled by that verse! This is NOT talking about a "second thousand years!" (Also, the word "AS" is VERY important in 2 Peter 3:8! A day is LIKE a thousand years TO GOD!!! NOT to people!) How do we know this is NOT talking about a "second thousand years"? Simple: It has to do with the SHABBAT ("SABBATH" or SATURDAY), the DAY OF "REST," which was another 24-hour period!

Believe the Scriptures!

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31: (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth anywork therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

The rest of what you said is irrelevant. Your interpretations are based on misinformation about our origins. Until you fully understand the above, the rest of your statements which hinge upon the above have no meaning.