Four reasons to doubt a pre-tribulation rapture.

[other one]

[angels4u]

6 minutes ago, other one said:

I doubt most could comprehend the amount of time I have spent arguing with myself about this...  so about 25 years ago I decided to prepare myself to go pre- trib or at least mid-trib.   It was not too difficult to prepare oneself for that for that is the way we should live anyway....   ready to go at any seconds notice....   then for a while I convinced myself that I was wrong and had to be spiritually prepared to be here till the end.....    I read about the people who came out of the tribulation and didn't hold their lives more important than being true to God and the rewards for it.  And that "blessed are those who endure to the end"   and decided I might really miss out on things if I went early.  So prepare yourself to be here should there be no pre/mid rapture..

So I'm content to just let the Lord take care of it for me and if he knows I'm strong enough to endure then I will embrace what the evil one does to us as a sign of my stand with the Godhead....    So just bring it all on, for I know he has it covered for me.

I battled with the same question years ago,I do believe in the rapture but either way we have to be prepared of what is to come and we will get the strength to get through it all..

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

10 hours ago, other one said:

So I'm content to just let the Lord take care of it for me and if he knows I'm strong enough to endure then I will embrace what the evil one does to us as a sign of my stand with the Godhead....    So just bring it all on, for I know he has it covered for me.

I have noticed a few things, no doubt you have also. First, trouble and persecution has been the lot of the righteous and/or Godly from day one. In the book of Acts, Stephen is giving and awesome speech to the Jewish leaders, part of which is a readers digest version of the Old Testament. He himself is about to be martyred, and his boldness is incredible.

If you look up "filled with the Spirit" you will often (if not most of the time) find that boldness is mentioned. Christians have the Spirit inside of them, and I think that when the time comes (such as in the Great Tribulation) the Spirit can and will take over. You mentioned that in your post above where you said "didn't hold their lives more important than being true to God and the rewards for it"! That is that boldness - perhaps even fearlessness! And why not, "fear not" or words like that are commanded some 365 times it is said.

In Revelation 20. we see  a description of those to be in the first resurrection:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Yes, there is that persecution, and the refusal not to bow down, even in the face of death, to anyone other that Jesus, and as you noted, there is great reward for that. Are we so short sighted, that we are not willing to dispense with temporary comfort, in exchange with incomparable eternal reward? The first pales compared with the last.

"Here, I'll give you a billion dollars, if you give me a penny!" "Uh, no thanks, I like my penny just fine!"

After we see the Christians beheaded in Rev 20, there is an interesting contrast in Revelation 21. It speaks of the New Heaven and the New Earth, where pain and suffering no longer exists, at least for those who inherit that destiny. There is another destiny for some, the second death. There is a list of traits for that group. We were speaking of courage, and willingness to suffer for our Lord (who suffered for us), and that list has some nasty things in it, but that list begins with cowardice:

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

I am inclined to believe from the things in that list, and the fact that we are commanded to not fear, that cowardice is a sin.

Anyway back to Stephen in his speech in Acts 7:

51“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, 53you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”

Bottom line

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 2 Tim 3:12

So, I think it behooves us to listen to Jesus in Luke 12:4

I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.

I get so wordy, I start out with a though I want to convey, and it turns into a sermon of something! What I was intending to do, was to quote from a letter that Corrie Ten Boom wrote:

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation."  Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

So other one, does she have a point, does her approach makes sense? Or should we not grasp the promises of reward for the honor of having the privilege of suffering righteousness sake. Persecution improves us.

Rhetorical question:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

answer:

As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Further reading on persecution

 

 

[HAZARD]

Here are biblical, Scriptural reasons to believe in a pree-trib rapture.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the
just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the
tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose
for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape
the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days.

He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of,
Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before
the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John
14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture.
Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor.
15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to
escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things
through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul
explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or
second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air
where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present
them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to
the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are
in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their
coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14;
Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly
Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but
both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the
Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The
Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until
after the tribulation.
 

[HAZARD]

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or
Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is
Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place
before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the
Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent
cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Take note, this is very important to
understand that the church will be taken out of the world before the Antichrist
is revealed and before the tribulation begins!

The bible clearly states that the hinderer of lawlessness must be
removed before the Antichrist is revealed,  2 Thess. 2:7-8, For the
mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until
he be taken out of the way. V. 8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
brightness of his coming:

There are only there things in the
world today that hinder lawlessness. They are the church, the Holy Spirit and
human governments. The hinderer that will be taken out of the world must refer
to one of these three things. It could not refer to the Holy Spirit and
governments for neither will be taken out of the world. It is clear that
governments will not be taken for the Antichrist will reign over the ten
kingdoms during the tribulation (Dan. 7:23-24; Rev. 17:8-17). The Holy Spirit
will be here during the tribulation, so He could not be the hinderer taken
(Acts. 2:16-21; John 14:16; Rev. 7:14; 12:17; 19:10; Zech. 12:10).

The Church will be taken
out of the world,  (1 Thess. 4:16; Eph. 5:26-27; 1 Cor.
15:51-58), so this must be the hinderer referred to.

If you cannot understand how the
church could be referred to as "he," see Eph. 2:15; 4:13 where the
church is called a "man."

[Omegaman 3.0]

Wow, I was just writing a response to you other one Hazard, I will post that in a moment, and then I will come back a gracefully respond to this one also, but I am going to lock the topic, as it is ridiculous that people want to come here and debate this, when we have a forum set aside where this is welcome. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Quote

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the
just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the
tribulation comes

Hi once again Hazard! I feel like I need to say to everyone, that this ia not a debat thread, we have an area specifically for discussing these issure. nevertheless, I will entertain us all with a reply, but let's not drag this out when there are perfectly good threads for discussion. Otherwise I will be compeeled to lock this thread, when people could be talking about the subject, the video, and not airing their per theories in opposition. Instead of being negative here, why not try to promote what you beleive in a topic about that?
So in reply to what you have raised, first off, which verses say what the purpose of the rapture is? Which verses say that there are years between the resurrection and the rapture? If there if there is a pre=tribulation rapture, why did Paul say that the dead in Christ rise first (the first resurrection) and then those believers who are alive at His coming, will be caught up (the rapture?) to join them in the clouds. 
Why did he also say, concerning that coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him, would not happen until after the man of lawlessness (the anit-christ) is revealed, who exalts himself above as and takes his place in the temple, claiming to be God?

Quote

He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of,
Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before
the Son of man,”

Yeah, the only problem with that, is that than language in the Greek, may also be translated as "pray that you have the strength to run away (or flee, escape, etc.) 

 "Watch also at every season, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man.” the Berean Literal Bible

That fits the context where Jesús is saying how difficult their flight will be, if they have to run away on the Sabbath (where their travel distance is limited) and how dreadful it will be for pregnant women & nursing mothers.

Quote

The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

It is true that Paul clarified a lot of detail, but it is not clear that He said they would avoid these troubles, in fact, quite the opposite, especially when taken together with other passages.

You can assert things like this all you want, but assertions and wishful thinking do not make them so. Why cannot I also assert, that there is no space of time (well, maybe the trinkling of an eye, but not years) indicated in scripture which demand that the catching up of believers in the rapture is not at at least approximately at the same time as His parousia, his coming to be present, his arrival, which happens after the tribulation, according to Matt, Mark, and Luke, and seems to be affirmed by Paul, using almost identical language at times as Jesus did in Matt 24 et al. not to mention Paul's propensity to put His coming (parousia) and the gathering together in the same breath.

Oh gee, I see you have a lot of verse addresses but not the content, more work for me, OK. let's get them out on the table so all can see.

1 Cor 15:51,52
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

I agree, but nothing to see here - we agree that there is rapture and a resurrection. Though Paul says there is a resurrection, then a rapture, as we already noted, and the resurrection is before the rapture, though after the tribulation, so I am not sure why you brought it up as if it were a point for your position. still, it is good for people to see it.

Quote

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air
where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present
them blameless before God the Father,

Another of you fine assertions, let's see if the verse you supplied agree!
John 14:1-3
1“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

OK another good verse, that also does not tell us when these things happen, or in what order, we already agree that Jesus will return and take the saints to the Fathers house.

1 Thess. 3:13
so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

Again we agree, and again not indication of the timing or sequence

4:15,17
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Yeah, we already saw that and that Paul points out that the rapture is after the resurrection, specifically. It is also interesting that he mentions a cry of command, the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, as those are interesting topics to look up, but I won't do that here.
you might have done well, to have included the context:

14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 

Notice that in verse 14, that God is bringing (which direction is bringing? Toward earth!) with Him, those who have fallen asleep, the dead in Christ, no doubt, that we noted before. Sounds to me that He is bringing them here, not taking them to heaven.

Also it is good to note that in verse 15, this is at the coming of the Lord. Coming there, is that Greek word, parousia, same as in Matt 24. The word is worth looking into, so allow me:

"Parousia παρουσία  Strong's 3952

The Greek word parousia ( παρουσία ) is a word translated in our English Bibles to the words coming, arrival, or presence. The word is common in eschatological contexts, and occurs 24 times. Below you can see how and where the word is used. It derives from para (alongside) and eimi (I am), thus it is a coming to be alongside. It is notable, that this is a noun.

3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present or to arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially arrival by an owner, who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS).  3952 (parousia) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit'" (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousia) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor.  The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence'" (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]"

So, the implication is (and many translations say it that way) that we are describing a presence, an arrival, along side us - here, otherwise we could have a different word, such as erchcomai, if we were going there.

Moving on . . . 

Quote

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to
the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are
in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their
coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14;
Zech. 14:5.

Sounds like another of your assertions, let's look at your verses for that:

Jude 14
14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

yep. no conflict there with a post-trib rapture, we posties assume that He is coming to earth, but that verse, yet again, does not say it is distinct in time from the rapture. It is just as it states in verse 15: to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Yeah, posties know that he is coming again to do that, that verses also says nothing about the rapture, so you cannot use it legitimately to separate the events.

Quote

 

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly
Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but
both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the
Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The
Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until
after the tribulation.

 

Yes, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people assert that, without producing scripture to back it up, maybe if people say it often enough, it will come true!

OK, yay, got through your comment, and there is not anything in it, that is demonstrably evidential of a pre-trib rapture, sure are a lot of assertions and attempts at inferring it though!

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Wow, I am pleased, lol, I got to reply in less than an hour, then it is time for dessert!

Quote

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or
Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

Ah. still hoping that asserting the same things over and over, they will somehow come true or be accepted. Sadly, it does not work like that.

Quote

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is
Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place
before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the
Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent
cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Ok. another assertion that has already been replied to and you have not produced verses to support.

Quote

Take note, this is very important to
understand that the church will be taken out of the world before the Antichrist
is revealed and before the tribulation begins!

When you repeat yourself like this, then I repeat myself. It is a fine assertion, what were are the supporting verses?  Maybe we should consider it important to take note that the Bible says that the antichrist comes first, THEN we can expect the rapture/resurrection to take place after the tribulation, presumably 3.5 years after the revelation of the anti-christ, just sayin'!

Quote

The bible clearly states that the hinderer of lawlessness must be
removed before the Antichrist is revealed,  2 Thess. 2:7-8, For the
mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until
he be taken out of the way. V. 8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
brightness of his coming:

It is clear that there is a restrainer, but that passage does not indicate who or what that restrainer is. There are only educated guesses. Also, and more to the point of this thread, it does not say WHEN that restraint is removed. You assume the things you list in the next session, I don't make such assumptions or assertions.

Bye the way, for those interested, there is a video on that topic also.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/201121-the-identity-of-the-restrainer-2nd-thess/#comment-2434173

Quote

There are only there things in the
world today that hinder lawlessness. They are the church, the Holy Spirit and
human governments. The hinderer that will be taken out of the world must refer
to one of these three things. It could not refer to the Holy Spirit and
governments for neither will be taken out of the world. It is clear that
governments will not be taken for the Antichrist will reign over the ten
kingdoms during the tribulation (Dan. 7:23-24; Rev. 17:8-17). The Holy Spirit
will be here during the tribulation, so He could not be the hinderer taken
(Acts. 2:16-21; John 14:16; Rev. 7:14; 12:17; 19:10; Zech. 12:10).

Again, assertions have little or no power to persuade, and saying "it is clear" is an assertion.

Quote

The Church will be taken
out of the world,  (1 Thess. 4:16; Eph. 5:26-27; 1 Cor.
15:51-58), so this must be the hinderer referred to.

No, it is just another assertion that "it must be", that is a conclusion you have formed.

If you cannot understand how the
church could be referred to as "he," see Eph. 2:15; 4:13 where the
church is called a "man."

Actually I am not concerned that much with the pronouns, I just note that regardless of who or what the restrainer is, it does not negate the fact that  the bible tells those (to whoever it applies) to watch for that man of sin, the abomination of desolation, why do you suppose that Jesus would tell people to watch for something, it they would be prevented from seeing it if they are raptured.

I know you cannot answer that here, it is just something for people to think about!

Let's hope though that if people take the position I take, they will at least be spiritually and maybe physically prepared to endure what they must. If we are wrong, we will just have to be pleasantly surprised that you are right. 

On the other hand, people who believe as you do, have the potential to find themselves shocked and disappointed, that the rapture did not happen, and may have some moments of doubt, and years of anguish they were not expecting, in such a case, mistaken beliefs can be a hazard.

[Alive]

To this point and to the same sort you opined a couple posts ago, I am convinced it is true that God will supply the "boldness" required when faced with evil and troubles.

When a young pastor, I was assaulted by a demon possessed individual with a butcher knife and in that moment, the Spirit of the Lord in me took over. A lesson of faith building--for all who hear the testimony.

We here in western civ, are much sheltered, but that may not always be the case. The LOrd is faithful to His own.

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Let's hope though that if people take the position I take, they will at least be spiritually and maybe physically prepared to endure what they must.

 

[angels4u]

No matter which position we hold on this , it's not a key issue but salvation is .

God promised never to leave us nor forsake us, no matter what we have to go through..

Isaiah 41:10

‘Do not fear, for I am with you;
Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you, surely I will help you,
Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.’

Are we all prepared to meet the Lord, that's the real issue..