Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Hi sisters, 

I just about fell off my chair when I heard his speech!

 Good grief Charles..... 

Here is the part that I said "whaaaat":

 "Here we need a vast military style campaign to marsh the strength of the global private sector, with trillions at his disposal far beyond global GDP, and with the greatest respect, beyond even the governments of the world’s leaders. It offers the only real prospect of achieving fundamental economic transition.

And the really big question is.... "Who is "HE" that Charles is talking about. The "HE" with trillions of dollars at his disposal....far greater than world GDP'???????

What does he know that we don't know?

 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Hi sisters, 

I just about fell off my chair when I heard his speech!

 Good grief Charles..... 

Here is the part that I said "whaaaat":

 "Here we need a vast military style campaign to marsh the strength of the global private sector, with trillions at his disposal far beyond global GDP, and with the greatest respect, beyond even the governments of the world’s leaders. It offers the only real prospect of achieving fundamental economic transition.

And the really big question is.... "Who is "HE" that Charles is talking about. The "HE" with trillions of dollars at his disposal....far greater than world GDP'???????

Hi Joe,

yes we heard Charlie loud and clear way down under. Talk about setting the stage for the False Prophet - economic and religious, (climate change).

And the WEF, (World Economic Forum) as far as I can see are the ones who get this moving in their desired direction. They have 5 billion plus a year, and have access to Trillions through their partnerships of multinationals etc.

Really an organisation to watch.

Their President is `lamb like.` (Rev. 13: 11) not hype or corporate type.

Marilyn.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

Would you mind just explaining to us, where is Constantinople in relation to Israel...west, east north or south?

Anyone with interest in this topic already knows that. It's not a proof as there is a lot of landmass north of Israel. 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Reinitin said:

I hate to interrupt. But why doesn't it line up? I never heard that argument. Prophecy gives us enough to see Gods word is true. The Horns are rulers on a ram and goat (empire)?

Alexanders kingdom was divided between 4 rulers?

Hi,

I think this is borne out in the histories as well. I read a few scholarly articles on the Successors and they all agreed on the final division of the Grecian Empire. They didn't all agree on everything of course, but the end was the same. 

Four divisions in the four directions just as scripture said. 

Most interesting for me is the narrative prophecy in Dan 11 that follows the Seleucid Empire. I feel it a forgone conclusion the insolent, willful king rises from Mesopotamia, right out of the old Seleucid region.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

" The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king...."

Alexander the 111 of Macedonia, he was the 111 Alexander, and he was not the FIRST king, he was the 23 king.

The first king will die and his empire will be split into four. Scripture is very specific..... "first king"...."split into 4"

'First' here is 'rishon'. It's not first as in a numbered set. It's 'chief or foremost', first as in prominent, at the top.  Alexander was clearly the top dog in the world at the time, more powerful than even the great Persian Empire, an Empire which dwarfed Alexander's army.

 

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, Diaste said:

'First' here is 'rishon'. It's not first as in a numbered set. It's 'chief or foremost', first as in prominent, at the top.  Alexander was clearly the top dog in the world at the time, more powerful than even the great Persian Empire, an Empire which dwarfed Alexander's army.

 

Diaste, I don’t believe the quote came from me but it’s all good!

 I understand your commitment to the 4 post Alexander powers... but I would like to ask you a specific question that might help me further...

Can you tell me who the Stone is in the dream sequence in chapter 2?

Secondly, when will he ftrike the feet of the metal man image?

Thanks, Charlie 

[Diaste]

26 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Diaste, I don’t believe the quote came from me but it’s all good!

 I understand your commitment to the 4 post Alexander powers... but I would like to ask you a specific question that might help me further...

Can you tell me who the Stone is in the dream sequence in chapter 2?

Secondly, when will he ftrike the feet of the metal man image?

Thanks, Charlie 

Oh. I thought that was to JoeCanada. Sorry.

The stone is Jesus.

At the end.

[JoeCanada]

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Do you disagree that the metal man image was chosen by God for specific purposes - to establish 4 separate kingdoms identified not only by their metal type, body part section, and also their very specific purpose within HIS Plan of Salvation for mankind?

Hi Charlie'

I think I'll tackle your questions one at a time.

Not at all. I do agree with that statement.

God shows, thru the metal man image, that there will be four kingdoms beginning from King Neb's Babylon. Why then? Well, I think that Daniel showing up at that time has a lot to do with it, obviously. Daniel was a servant of God and was highly esteemed. God would use Daniel to convey prophecy to us. When we get to the Book of Revelation, John's primary purpose in writing Rev was to explain the Book of Daniel, and so prepare the Church for the last days.

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost the entire Book of Daniel is prophetic.

In chapter 2, Daniel explains King Nebs vision to him. It concludes with a stone cut out without hands and it struck the statue and crushed the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold all at the same time, the wind carrying away their remains so as to be never found again....Dan 2:35

I think it is critical here to understand "they were crushed all at the same time" by the rock.

We know without a doubt that the rock is Jesus.

How is it that He crushes "all at the same time" when He comes on the scene. Babylon,  Media-Persia and Greece Empires were all gone. When Jesus came, the empire of the day was Rome, and it remained for some 1400 years (eastern leg) after the crucifixion.

So did Jesus "crush these all at the same time". No.

Did He establish His Kingdom which will never be destroyed?... Dan 2:44

Well, maybe. He is the cornerstone...Isa 28:16. To build anything there must be a cornerstone, so in that sense, yes. The corner stone was laid.

But.... and here is the "BUT".

Dan 2:44 says..."In the days of those kings"

Those kings were all gone. Dead and buried. There were no Empires or Kingdoms left. They were history.

 Moving ahead to Dan 7..... 

While laying on his bed, Daniel had dreams and visions, and wrote them down. ( I wish I would learn to write mine down, I usually forget most of them )

Daniel saw the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea. We learn from the Old Testament that the Great Sea is the Eastern Mediterranean Sea: (Num 34:6, Jos 1:4, 15:12, Ezek 47:10,15,19,  48:28) They stir up cause war to the nations around the great sea. Out of these wars come the 4 beasts.

Out of the sea comes 4 great beasts......and here is where we really have to pay attention. (the 4 beasts resurface in Rev 13)

The first was "LIKE" a lion.....Like Babylon. It wasn't Babylon, but it was 'Like' it

The second "resembled" a bear.... Media-Persia....it only 'resembled' Media-Persia

The third was "LIKE" a leopard..... Greece...it was 'like' Greece, but not Greece

After, I kept looking....a fourth beast dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong... it crushed and devoured and trampled the remainder with its feet.... it was different from all the other beasts before it and it had 10 horns.

This fourth beast not only devoured and trampled down the other 3.... but this beast had 10 horns. A little horn came up among the 10, and plucked out 3. The narrative continues with "I kept looking until thrones were set up and the Ancient of Days took His seat".....This is the same as John's vision in Rev 4.

Going back to the statue of Dan 2, all the metals were crushed at the same time by the rock that was cut out without human hands, and His Kingdom was set up.....(not physical. Jesus came as a suffering servant, a lamb led to slaughter. The next time that He comes He will be a king.... and judgment will follow Him)

Do we see a progression from when the four winds of heaven stir up the great sea, 4 beasts arise, the 4th beast tramples the other 3 beasts, the little horn arises and then the court sat and judgment commences?

This "progressive revelation", which simply means that as more of the Bible is written, more is revealed. We see Daniels great vision prophecy in Dan 10-12 reveals more than his earlier visions, and what is revealed in Rev reveals more than what is found in Daniel. 

I think I'll wrap it up here. Did I answer your question? It maybe seem like a lot of mumble-jumble but my mind is running at 100 mph but my fingers are only typing at about 8 mph....

Take care

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JoeCanada
added to it

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Charlie'

I think I'll tackle your questions one at a time.

Not at all. I do agree with that statement.

God shows, thru the metal man image, that there will be four kingdoms beginning from King Neb's Babylon. Why then? Well, I think that Daniel showing up at that time has a lot to do with it, obviously. Daniel was a servant of God and was highly esteemed. God would use Daniel to convey prophecy to us. When we get to the Book of Revelation, John's primary purpose in writing Rev was to explain the Book of Daniel, and so prepare the Church for the last days.

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost the entire Book of Daniel is prophetic.

In chapter 2, Daniel explains King Nebs vision to him. It concludes with a stone cut out without hands and it struck the statue and crushed the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold all at the same time, the wind carrying away their remains so as to be never found again....Dan 2:35

I think it is critical here to understand "they were crushed all at the same time" by the rock.

We know without a doubt that the rock is Jesus.

How is it that He crushes "all at the same time" when He comes on the scene. Babylon,  Media-Persia and Greece Empires were all gone. When Jesus came, the empire of the day was Rome, and it remained for some 1400 years (eastern leg) after the crucifixion.

So did Jesus "crush these all at the same time". No.

Did He establish His Kingdom which will never be destroyed?... Dan 2:44

Well, maybe. He is the cornerstone...Isa 28:16. To build anything there must be a cornerstone, so in that sense, yes. The corner stone was laid.

But.... and here is the "BUT".

Dan 2:44 says..."In the days of those kings"

Those kings were all gone. Dead and buried. There were no Empires or Kingdoms left. They were history.

 Moving ahead to Dan 7..... 

While laying on his bed, Daniel had dreams and visions, and wrote them down. ( I wish I would learn to write mine down, I usually forget most of them )

Daniel saw the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea. We learn from the Old Testament that the Great Sea is the Eastern Mediterranean Sea: (Num 34:6, Jos 1:4, 15:12, Ezek 47:10,15,19,  48:28) They stir up cause war to the nations around the great sea. Out of these wars come the 4 beasts.

Out of the sea comes 4 great beasts......and here is where we really have to pay attention. (the 4 beasts resurface in Rev 13)

The first was "LIKE" a lion.....Like Babylon. It wasn't Babylon, but it was 'Like' it

The second "resembled" a bear.... Media-Persia....it only 'resembled' Media-Persia

The third was "LIKE" a leopard..... Greece...it was 'like' Greece, but not Greece

After, I kept looking....a fourth beast dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong... it crushed and devoured and trampled the remainder with its feet.... it was different from all the other beasts before it and it had 10 horns.

This fourth beast not only devoured and trampled down the other 3.... but this beast had 10 horns. A little horn came up among the 10, and plucked out 3. The narrative continues with "I kept looking until thrones were set up and the Ancient of Days took His seat".....This is the same as John's vision in Rev 4.

Going back to the statue of Dan 2, all the metals were crushed at the same time by the rock that was cut out without human hands, and His Kingdom was set up.....(not physical. Jesus came as a suffering servant, a lamb led to slaughter. The next time that He comes He will be a king.... and judgment will follow Him)

Do we see a progression from when the four winds of heaven stir up the great sea, 4 beasts arise, the 4th beast tramples the other 3 beasts, the little horn arises and then the court sat and judgment commences?

This "progressive revelation", which simply means that as more of the Bible is written, more is revealed. We see Daniels great vision prophecy in Dan 10-12 reveals more than his earlier visions, and what is revealed in Rev reveals more than what is found in Daniel. 

I think I'll wrap it up here. Did I answer your question? It maybe seem like a lot of mumble-jumble but my mind is running at 100 mph but my fingers are only typing at about 8 mph....

Take care

 

 

Joe, there is nothing there that I would call mumble- jumble! 

There is only one difference I see between our views (assuming I read your thoughts correctly).

Everyone believes the Stone crushed the image and was thrown into the wind, however, there is a 2000 year difference between those two verses. There is no way to discover this unless you completely break down the ‘interpretation sequence’ and you will find its ‘pieces’ MUST ‘fit’ somewhere into the ‘dream sequence’. The Stone in the ‘dream sequence’ is equal to the Stone’ that DIVIDED the 4th kingdom NOT destroyed it. The Stone struck the feet and separated the ‘iron from the clay’ only. At the second coming He will ‘crush’ ALL of the elements at one time (together). Jesus certainly did not destroy at His first coming but came to divide those who would believe and those who would not accept Him as their Messiah. 

Hope this makes sense, Charlie 

[Diaste]

On 12/19/2021 at 9:28 AM, JoeCanada said:

There is a notable problem with equating Alexander to the shaggy goat in Daniel 8:21.

" The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king...."

Alexander the 111 of Macedonia, he was the 111 Alexander, and he was not the FIRST king, he was the 23 king.

The first king will die and his empire will be split into four. Scripture is very specific..... "first king"...."split into 4"

First here is 'head or chief, prominent'. Not first in order. Alexander fits this perfectly.