Paul rebuked sabbath lovers as Peter rebuked Law practitioners

[adamjedgar]

On 12/26/2021 at 9:22 AM, R. Hartono said:

Abraham was saved by Faith, yes, not by Law.

would you care to consider the following text then?

Romans 4:16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

 Then read Revelation 14:12

12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

I see both faith and works all over these two passages of scripture (first one written by the apostle paul and the second one by the apostle John!)

 

So, if both the above are self evident bible truths, how then do we explain them? 

Its pretty easy actually...

1. we are "saved" by faith

2. we are "judged" by the fruits of our faith...our works!

 

the point of the fruits...Jesus said to the women in the pericope adulterae (found in the KJV), "neither do i condemn you GO AND SIN NO MORE"!

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by adamjedgar

[R. Hartono]

On 12/27/2021 at 7:45 AM, adamjedgar said:

would you care to consider the following text then?

Romans 4:16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

 Then read Revelation 14:12

12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

I see both faith and works all over these two passages of scripture (first one written by the apostle paul and the second one by the apostle John!)

 

So, if both the above are self evident bible truths, how then do we explain them? 

Its pretty easy actually...

1. we are "saved" by faith

2. we are "judged" by the fruits of our faith...our works!

 

the point of the fruits...Jesus said to the women in the pericope adulterae (found in the KJV), "neither do i condemn you GO AND SIN NO MORE"!

 

Sabbath Lovers have overlooked that its now the era of Pentecost Holy Spirit downpour not given to the ancient desert Hebrew who were commanded to watch sabath. They even failed to enter the promised land until one generation perished, they only rested their bodies on sabath. Not their hearts. So why deny Holy Spirit rest and replace it with desert Law ?

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

Christians need to rest their hearts daily in Holy Spirit era not resting their back on Saturday.

[NickyLouse]

On 12/8/2021 at 11:29 PM, R. Hartono said:

Col. 2¹⁶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ¹⁷ Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

Paul has warned the gentile Colossian church that nobody shud judge them regarding Festival days, clean food or shabbat which they are not familiar with. Those are just shadow of things to come.

I'm surprised that nobody even mentioned here that Colossions 2 was about those who followed the traditions of men who scrutinized the ones who were observing Elohim's moedim. Paul mentions "persuasive arguments" in verse 4 and "philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human traditions" (NASB) before going on to say in the oft-misinterpreted verse 16: "no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day" (NASB). The moedim are His appointments - not human tradition.

Likewise, with regard to what we eat, Paul writes, [“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”  (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.] This also refers to what some false teachers were stating about things that are actually food, but were teaching that they were not. They were like the Pharisees who sought to drive people away from Yahweh by placing hedges around the actual word instead of teaching the exact meanings.

Edited March 27, 2023 by NickyLouse

[Starise]

Did or did not the Catholic church change a holy day from Saturday to Sunday? I'll answer my own question. Yes they did.

How pertinent is this knowledge today and specifically WHY was it changed? Some say it was a way to integrate pagan elements into the RCC, and since Sunday is associated with sun worship, this is likely why they did it.

Daniel 7:25

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

 

 

[AdHoc]

There are THREE peoples on this earth and God deals differently with each group. This is the real meaning of the Greek word "Oikonomia" which we translate "Dispensation". The word "oikonomia" does not mean a period of time. It has the meaning of a housewife in a kitchen "dispensing" to her family what they need. From Adam to Abraham, and after, there were "THE Nations". They are divided by genes and language, and have their borders. From Abraham, and via Isaac and Jacob God raised up a Nation to facilitate the recovery of the earth and men. This Nation - Israel is "dispensed to" by God via COVENANTS. One Covenant which contained about 15 promises was made with Abraham and his seed. To benefit from this Covenant Abraham and his male seed had only to be circumcised. Another Covenant was made with Israel via Moses 430 years later at Sinai. Israel's part of this Covenant was to keep about 615 laws that separated Israel morally from the other Nations, and made Israel ritually clean so that God could live WITH them.

According to Romans Chapter 2 the basis for judgment of the Nations is their conscience, which bears God's moral law. This same Chapter says that Israel will be judged on their obedience to the Law.

Jesus came and offered Israel a new way. They refused it and clung to the Law. God then turned to men in general and to individuals of (1) The Nations, and (2) The Nation of Israel. From the TWO God made a "NEW MAN". This New Man is a totally new creature with no ethnic connections (2nd Cor.5:17). This New Man was not born from Adam like the Nations. And it was not born from Jacob like Israel. It was born via the Holy Spirit. Now God had three peoples on earth who each had a specific ORIGIN.

The Law of Moses was designed to SEPARATE the Nation of Israel from the Nations. But the New Man needed to be ONE - in UNITY. So the Law of Moses, which commanded SEPARATION, and established a ritual cleanness for Israel - all good things for God's DISPENSATION to Israel - now became a HINDRANCE for the unity that God wanted in the New Man. So Jesus took the Law - the 615 laws - fulfilled them perfectly, and then took the whole Law to the cross with Him. So Ephesians 2:14-15 says;

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

These two verses reveal
- God's goal was ONE New Man
- The ex-Jew and the ex-Gentile were to be ONE
- The ex-Jew and the ex-Gentile were to have PEACE
- The Law produced ENMITY
- This ENMITY was abolished in Jesus' flesh by death on the cross

1. The Gentile who stays a Gentile is STILL under CONSCIENCE
2. The Jew who refuses Christ is STILL under COVENANT and thus still under LAW
3. The Jew who embraces Christ HAS NO LAW. It is ABOLISHED
4. The Gentile who embraces Christ never had the Law and now has NO LAW

 

 

[Starise]

I believe this all hinges on what was carried over. The New Testament is only a divide so far as the bible was divided so some might assume that nothing in the OT applies. 

Some things that were abolished- 

Animal sacrifices were no longer required since Jesus is now that final sacrifice.

Any rules designed to get closer to God such as the hundreds of extra biblical rules made up by rabbis over time were no longer a requirement if they pertained to a cleansing because we are all cleansed through Christ. It is interesting to note that before Christ outsiders who became citizens of Israel could practice these things. I think this was a forerunner of the grafting.

Integration of the gentiles into God's plan meant we are a part of the tree as gentiles or half Jews or whatever. Going forward there were disputes after Christ came and died as to how worship post Christ would look. While the sacrifices ceased in Jewish christian assemblies, some things carried over, like Saturday as the day of worship which at that time was adopted by the gentile Christians.

Many other things gentiles don't quite understand about some of the prophetic events in both old and new testaments, things that just don't fit unless you are Jewish and you undertstand say, what the feast of the trumpets is and the different celebrations and days of importance surrounding the Jewish calender represent in terms of future events as to how God has chosen to reveal it. The seven trumpets of Revelation are based on the feast of trumpets and their order is significant. To a Jew is would be more obvious. Gentiles not raised in these traditions can know these things if they study the significance of them in Jewish life and practice. Not all of these things have the same significance because many things the Jews added extra biblically i.e. that long list of rules God never mentioned.

I am not saying any of this in order to bring up what the Jews do as a way to poke at them, because like all cultures they have their traditions that are expressly Jewish. Some of those were biblically ordained and others not so much. The difference is as @AdHocmentioned God dealt with the Jews in different ways than He has chosen to deal with the Gentiles. 

Two extremes here. One says the blood of Christ was like a huge eraser and it erased all prior demands placed on the early Jews and later gentiles through the final atoning blood of Christ. The other extreme says there are still rigid carryovers that should apply to all of us, yet even many Jews to this dat don't offer blood sacrifices, so some of that they believe has been changed as well. 

Both extremes have tweaked. So called protestant religions and the RCC especially have made huge sweeping changes to many of the old ways, changing the day of rest was one of those. The Jews OTOH have done similar in adding to their biblical traditions many extra biblical requirements.

 

[Dennis1209]

42 minutes ago, Starise said:

I believe this all hinges on what was carried over. The New Testament is only a divide so far as the bible was divided so some might assume that nothing in the OT applies. 

Some things that were abolished- 

Animal sacrifices were no longer required since Jesus is now that final sacrifice.

Any rules designed to get closer to God such as the hundreds of extra biblical rules made up by rabbis over time were no longer a requirement if they pertained to a cleansing because we are all cleansed through Christ. It is interesting to note that before Christ outsiders who became citizens of Israel could practice these things. I think this was a forerunner of the grafting.

Integration of the gentiles into God's plan meant we are a part of the tree as gentiles or half Jews or whatever. Going forward there were disputes after Christ came and died as to how worship post Christ would look. While the sacrifices ceased in Jewish christian assemblies, some things carried over, like Saturday as the day of worship which at that time was adopted by the gentile Christians.

Many other things gentiles don't quite understand about some of the prophetic events in both old and new testaments, things that just don't fit unless you are Jewish and you undertstand say, what the feast of the trumpets is and the different celebrations and days of importance surrounding the Jewish calender represent in terms of future events as to how God has chosen to reveal it. The seven trumpets of Revelation are based on the feast of trumpets and their order is significant. To a Jew is would be more obvious. Gentiles not raised in these traditions can know these things if they study the significance of them in Jewish life and practice. Not all of these things have the same significance because many things the Jews added extra biblically i.e. that long list of rules God never mentioned.

I am not saying any of this in order to bring up what the Jews do as a way to poke at them, because like all cultures they have their traditions that are expressly Jewish. Some of those were biblically ordained and others not so much. The difference is as @AdHocmentioned God dealt with the Jews in different ways than He has chosen to deal with the Gentiles. 

Two extremes here. One says the blood of Christ was like a huge eraser and it erased all prior demands placed on the early Jews and later gentiles through the final atoning blood of Christ. The other extreme says there are still rigid carryovers that should apply to all of us, yet even many Jews to this dat don't offer blood sacrifices, so some of that they believe has been changed as well. 

Both extremes have tweaked. So called protestant religions and the RCC especially have made huge sweeping changes to many of the old ways, changing the day of rest was one of those. The Jews OTOH have done similar in adding to their biblical traditions many extra biblical requirements.

 

Related to this subject, I seldom quote them, but I agree with the following.

https://www.gotquestions.org/millennial-sacrifices.html

I recall @AdHoc and I discussing it some time ago. As the Lord Himself made the first animal sacrifice to cover Adam and Eve temporarily, innocent animal blood was a temporary sin covering until the perfect sacrifice arrived and paid our sin debt once and for all time. The Lamb of God.

[other one]

18 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Strange, the 4th commandment says to remember the sabbath and keep it holy. It also says specifically not to work... or has Christiandom edited the 10 commandments down to 9?

and oddly enough Jesus confessed he was working on the sabbath.  I'm not so sure that bothers you but it should bother Christians who are still pushing following the ten commandments instead of Jesus's two.

[AdHoc]

@Slibhin @Starise @other one @adamjedgar @NickyLouse @Dennis1209 @R. Hartono @Justin Adams

Here are some considerations that must be settled. If I can deal with five of seven matters I probably haven't seen all there is to see.

1. There can be no talk of the Law outside of Israel. It is made solely with Israel. Only a Gentile who chose to dwell in Isral was subject to it.

2. The Law is good, spiritual and God inspired

3. The Law is the contents of a Covenant - the duties and penalties. This Covenant was made with Israel ALONE

4. The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 will have, as its conditions, the SAME Law and is made with Israel ALONE

5. The Law in its entirety remains valid to heaven and earth pass - i.e. the end of the Millennium

6. The Gentile who puts himself under Law achieves nothing except to insult Christ

7. The animal sacrifices had two functions. 1. Temporarily cover trespasses. 2. Cleanse the flesh

8. Christ's sacrifice took care of point 1. for the whole world (1st Jn.2:2)

9. Christ's blood took care of point 2. ONLY FOR THE CHURCH (those who believed in Him)

10. Therefore, those of Zechariah 14:16, need a way to cleanse the flesh during the Millennium

11. The Passover is a MEMORIAL of EGYPT. It will be practiced in the Millennium (Lk.22:16)

12. The Law was "fulfilled" by Christ, but not by Israel. This will be realized in the Millennium

13. The Jew who remained a Jew is fully subject to the Law. The Jew who became a Christian is fully severed from the Law

14. The Law establishes a righteousness to enable God to live in the midst (albeit behind a curtain) of Israel. This righteousness is totally inadequate for enabling God to live IN a man (as He does in the church). Any believer who returns to the Law admits that their righteousness is sufficient and Christ's is inadequate. This is a deep offense to the Father Who APPROVED Christ's righteous life, and it is a deep offense against the Person and Work of Christ.

15. Any man who is under Law MUST FULFILL ALL THE LAW. If he fails under ONE POINT he is guilty of ALL. That means that all under the Law break the Law for the Temple, which is the center of the Law, is gone. If you are guilty of certain Law you have earned the death penalty. The Law, when its TRUTH is applied, sentences every adherent TO DEATH.

16. Here is the test. Deuteronomy 12 requires those under Law to go to Jerusalem and the Temple three times a year together with his first and best tenth from the land and feast there. Did you do it every year? If not you are a Law-breaker and worthy of death. The absence of the Temple is not foreseen by the Law, so that is no excuse.