Paul rebuked sabbath lovers as Peter rebuked Law practitioners

[Starise]

Addressing OO.

Might as well scrap Sunday too according to that logic right?

[Dennis1209]

19 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

@Slibhin @Starise @other one @adamjedgar @NickyLouse @Dennis1209 @R. Hartono @Justin Adams

Here are some considerations that must be settled. If I can deal with five of seven matters I probably haven't seen all there is to see.

1. There can be no talk of the Law outside of Israel. It is made solely with Israel. Only a Gentile who chose to dwell in Isral was subject to it.

2. The Law is good, spiritual and God inspired

3. The Law is the contents of a Covenant - the duties and penalties. This Covenant was made with Israel ALONE

4. The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 will have, as its conditions, the SAME Law and is made with Israel ALONE

5. The Law in its entirety remains valid to heaven and earth pass - i.e. the end of the Millennium

6. The Gentile who puts himself under Law achieves nothing except to insult Christ

7. The animal sacrifices had two functions. 1. Temporarily cover trespasses. 2. Cleanse the flesh

8. Christ's sacrifice took care of point 1. for the whole world (1st Jn.2:2)

9. Christ's blood took care of point 2. ONLY FOR THE CHURCH (those who believed in Him)

10. Therefore, those of Zechariah 14:16, need a way to cleanse the flesh during the Millennium

11. The Passover is a MEMORIAL of EGYPT. It will be practiced in the Millennium (Lk.22:16)

12. The Law was "fulfilled" by Christ, but not by Israel. This will be realized in the Millennium

13. The Jew who remained a Jew is fully subject to the Law. The Jew who became a Christian is fully severed from the Law

14. The Law establishes a righteousness to enable God to live in the midst (albeit behind a curtain) of Israel. This righteousness is totally inadequate for enabling God to live IN a man (as He does in the church). Any believer who returns to the Law admits that their righteousness is sufficient and Christ's is inadequate. This is a deep offense to the Father Who APPROVED Christ's righteous life, and it is a deep offense against the Person and Work of Christ.

15. Any man who is under Law MUST FULFILL ALL THE LAW. If he fails under ONE POINT he is guilty of ALL. That means that all under the Law break the Law for the Temple, which is the center of the Law, is gone. If you are guilty of certain Law you have earned the death penalty. The Law, when its TRUTH is applied, sentences every adherent TO DEATH.

16. Here is the test. Deuteronomy 12 requires those under Law to go to Jerusalem and the Temple three times a year together with his first and best tenth from the land and feast there. Did you do it every year? If not you are a Law-breaker and worthy of death. The absence of the Temple is not foreseen by the Law, so that is no excuse.

Points one through sixteen:   CHECK MARK

[other one]

36 minutes ago, Starise said:

Addressing OO.

Might as well scrap Sunday too according to that logic right?

Sunday is not the Sabbath.   The Sabbath is Friday evening at sundown to Saturday sundown.

(not required for Born Again Christians, but not forbidden either)

Sunday is just when we meet to pray, praise the Lord and learn more of the word and to be with other believers to be friends.  We sometimes have a meal after services and always have a meal before Wednesday night services.

[Justin Adams]

21 hours ago, Starise said:

Might as well scrap Sunday too according to that logic right?

Yes. The Theocracy was always destined to be destroyed by the NEW COVENANT. Read and understand Hebrews.

[Starise]

So what I hear is not necessarily a clearcut answer. 

We have precident for Saturday as the sabbath. In one place Jesus tells the Jews to continue in those ways. In other instances, we have Jesus doing things on the sabbath the Jews forbade. When called on it, Jesus indicated the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. 

Some will say we should not work on Sunday. Western countries adopted Sunday as a day that had some of the sabbath qualities, such as no work on that day. Shops would remain closed on Sunday. This is traditionally my background.

Since we know Sunday isn't the sabbath, then why attach anything to the day? The only real reason to meet on the day is because we agreed on it and it fulflls the requirement to meet regularly and worship. The day is not really a sabbath replacement.

To say the sabbath is still in effect may only be seen to apply to  Jewish people and others who feel more convicted to hold to that day. 

In Christian teaching Jesus is the last word. He was trying to show the difference between Jewish imposed rules and His rules. Originally God knew men need to rest and a time to reflect on Him, so He initiated the Sabbath as that day. Over time the Jews added so much fluff to it, the day became almost impossible for any average Jew to uphold in keeping all of those rules. This was NOT the original intent.

 

[R. Hartono]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:15 AM, Starise said:

So what I hear is not necessarily a clearcut answer. 

We have precident for Saturday as the sabbath. In one place Jesus tells the Jews to continue in those ways. In other instances, we have Jesus doing things on the sabbath the Jews forbade. When called on it, Jesus indicated the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. 

Some will say we should not work on Sunday. Western countries adopted Sunday as a day that had some of the sabbath qualities, such as no work on that day. Shops would remain closed on Sunday. This is traditionally my background.

Since we know Sunday isn't the sabbath, then why attach anything to the day? The only real reason to meet on the day is because we agreed on it and it fulflls the requirement to meet regularly and worship. The day is not really a sabbath replacement.

To say the sabbath is still in effect may only be seen to apply to  Jewish people and others who feel more convicted to hold to that day. 

In Christian teaching Jesus is the last word. He was trying to show the difference between Jewish imposed rules and His rules. Originally God knew men need to rest and a time to reflect on Him, so He initiated the Sabbath as that day. Over time the Jews added so much fluff to it, the day became almost impossible for any average Jew to uphold in keeping all of those rules. This was NOT the original intent.

 

Its the era of Holy Spirit downpour now, everyday should be a Sabbath, to rest heart ( not the body) in God.

[R. Hartono]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:52 PM, Justin Adams said:

Yes. The Theocracy was always destined to be destroyed by the NEW COVENANT. Read and understand Hebrews.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James 2%3A10 

Christians who obey the Law must obey all. Including sacrificing animal for sin atonement, circumcised etc

[CaptWalker]

Even the weakest Christian can see that the Sabbath day was done away with after Christs death...but it does take a very strong-minded Christian to think HIS sacrifice/death was not good enough to do away with it...so i guess maybe i should at least acknowlegde the 7 day Adventists for that alone, and since they do name there churches after what they believe in...so then i am sure calling them out will not be too offensive, if at all??

[Retrobyter]

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Col. 2¹⁶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ¹⁷ Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

Paul has warned the GENTILE Colossian church that nobody should judge them regarding Festival days, clean food or shabbat which they are not familiar with. Those are just shadow of things to come.

Shalom, @R. Hartono.

The point is that they should not be JUDGED about their keeping of these things, not that they should stop keeping them! The "shadows" are good to REMEMBER, because they are a projection of the reality!

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Roman 14 ⁵ One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. ⁶ Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. ¹⁰ You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister^[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt?

The point here is that, whatever days they choose to hold sacred or holy, that they remember that they do so "TO THE LORD" for "THEY GIVE THANKS TO GOD!" It's not that one should no longer keep the Shabbat ("sabbath"), which was sanctified or made holy by YHWH GOD HIMSELF ON THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE CREATION WEEK!

They can worship God on Shabbat AND on the First Day AND on any more days they so choose! They could choose to make EVERY DAY a "Shabbat," if they wanted to do so! "This ye ought to have done, and not to leave the other undone" is the guiding principle!

Genesis 2:1-3 (KJV)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested (Hebrew: וַיִּשְׁבֹּת = "vayyishbbot" = "and-He-rested") on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND SANCTIFIED IT: because that in it he had rested (Hebrew: שָׁבַת = "shaaVat" = "He-had-rested") from all his work which God created and made.

(By the way, verse 3 proves that the day of His rest was over at that time. It's been said that because it doesn't say "and the evening and the morning were the seventh day" that the day is still continuing, but this shows that opinion is not correct. The word "shaaVat" means "He-HAD-RESTED," which is the qal-perfect for the third-person singular.)

LATER, this became "a sign of the covenant between God and the children of Israel":

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

"'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you (does make you holy). 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. 17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

 

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Galatia 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Some Jews has taught the gentile churches without authorization from the apostles, Acts 15 ²⁴ We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

True, but this matter was discussed and cleared up by the council at Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15:

Acts 15:13-31 (KJV)

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,

"Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 "'"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the LORD, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called," saith the LORD, who doeth all these things.' (Amos 9:11-12) 

18 "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that ...

they abstain from pollutions of idols,
and [from] fornication,
and [from] things strangled,
and [from] blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner;

"The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, '[Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law' : to whom we gave no [such] commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

Thus, those who were JEWS were to REMAIN keeping the Law in all points, because that is THEIR orders by God. Circumcision was given to Avraham and his descendants. That included all the children of Israel (Jacob's new name), the Edomites (the children of Esau), and the children of Ishmael (whom the Muslims claim)! It also applied to all the children of Keturah, his second concubine after Sarah died.

Genesis 17:1-22 (KJV)

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,

"I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly."

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 "As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called 'Abram,' but thy name shall be 'Abraham'; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

9 And God said unto Abraham,

"Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; EVERY MAN CHILD AMONG YOU SHALL BE CIRCUMCISED. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be A TOKEN OF THE COVENANT betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

15 And God said unto Abraham,

"As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name 'Sarai,' but 'Sarah' [shall] her name [be]. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her."

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart,

"Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"

18 And Abraham said unto God,

"O that Ishmael might live before thee!"

19 And God said,

"Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name 'Isaac' (Hebrew: יִצְחָק = "Yitschaaq" = "Laughter"): and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

and Yitschaaq ("Isaac") was circumcised the eighth day:

Genesis 21:1-7 (KJV)

1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, "Isaac." 4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. 5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. 6 And Sarah said,

"God hath made me to laugh, [so that] all that hear will laugh with me!"

7 And she said,

"Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born [him] a son in his old age."

 

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

They tried to teach the old Law to the gentiles : Acts 15 ¹⁰ Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Ya`aqoV ("James") was NOT saying that the Jews were no longer to keep the Law, which YHWH GOD HIMSELF put upon all the children of Israel and has NEVER RESCINDED those orders!

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

We must not overlook that Now is the era of Holy Spirit Pentecost downpour which is not given to the ancient desert Hebrew.  The desert rebel Hebrew who bite birds alive were not given Holy Spirit with 9 Gifts of Holy Spirit to build the church, so Why return to the ancient desert Law who had not rcvd Holy Spirit but the Law ?

God had renamed the Law contaned in 613 mitzvot (take all or leave all) of Torah with these two : Love God and love others as we love ourselves. 

Its the era of Holy Spirit downpour, why should some Jews teach gentile church  to dig the old grave of Law ?

The Hypocrites Theologian Jews who judged the Collosians only had the Law, not Holy Spirit. They never learn that God has torn the curtain of the most Holy Chamber which means all the Law and practice were only shadow of the true Covenant which is Christ and God further used a nation to destroy the Temple in Jerusalem and the Jews at 70 AD. Wasnt it God who commanded to build the Temple ? Wasnt that God either who destroyed it with all its practice ? Its a new Covenant not the shadow.

Obviously, you believe this take on the Scriptures, but it has several problems:

First and foremost, the "New Covenant" is FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!

Proof:

Jeremiah 31:31-40 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST OF THEM," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

36 "If those ordinances depart from before me," saith the LORD, "[then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."

In other words, "it ain't happenin'!" It not only won't happen, it CAN'T happen!

37 Thus saith the LORD;

"If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done," saith the LORD.

TO THIS DAY, scientists cannot measure these two things! If anything, they ESTIMATE distances in space and they make HYPOTHESES (GUESSES) about what the center of the earth is like! Again, it's not possible!

38 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that the city (Jerusalem) shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, [shall be] 'holy unto the LORD'; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever."

God is BIGGER than the sins of Israel! And, NOT ONLY will their sins be forgiven, but 

That it might apply to Gentiles at all, is ONLY TRUE if that Gentile has been ADOPTED INTO THE MISHPACHAH (FAMILY) of God, through the shed blood of the Messiah as "haKeves 'Elohiym" or "the Lamb of God," the Sacrificial Lamb that made our Justification by God possible.

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Matt 5 17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

All the Law has been renamed in these two :

Matt 22 ³⁷ Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’^{[a] 38} This is the first and greatest commandment. ³⁹ And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’^{[b] 40} All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") did not "rename" the Law; He FULFILLED them! All the Law was fulfilled in its keeping by the Messiah Himself! And, they were kept ONLY by Him completely. Therefore, He did not abolish them! The Law is still active and for the children of Israel.

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Roman 13 ^8... for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. ⁹ The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”^[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ¹⁰ Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Not precisely: Love makes it possible to KEEP the Law, but it's not the replacement of the Law. When one "loves his neighbor as himself," he will not "commit adultery" with his wife; he will not "murder" him; he will not "steal"from him; he will not "covet" his belongings! If he treats all of his neighbors like this, he will not sin against any of his neighbors and he will KEEP the commandments of the Law. That's the HORIZONTAL relationships he has with other human beings.

There are also the other commandments of the Law that deal with a person's VERTICAL relationship with YHWH God! Loving God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength will make it easy to KEEP those commandments of the Law, as well! Why? Because in loving God, we want to please Him! We don't want to disappoint Him in any way! Thus, we keep His Law gladly!

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Holy Spirit will make intercession to take over our burden when we pray with Glosolalia and give us daily sabbath rest.

If you're talking about "gloossa" (γλῶσσα), that's the Greek word for "tongue," and by implication, a "language." As can seen on the day of Pentecost (the fiftieth day of counting the omer, or Shavuot), they were real languages spoken by Jews from other countries who came for the high holy-days ("holidays"), including Shavuot, the anniversary of the giving of the Law:

Acts 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another,

"Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another,

"What meaneth this?"

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

Rome 8:26 .... for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Its a new Covenant not the shadow. If you love God and love others like you love your belly do you still need the Law ? Follow the early disciples than become acute Theologians.

Yes, we still need the Law. That's what our society is based upon.

On 12/9/2021 at 12:29 AM, R. Hartono said:

 

 

[NConly]

Scripture is clear in several places. No more old law no more old covenant. One must believe the scripture. Right