Separation of Body and Soul is Unbiblical.

[Your closest friendnt]

10 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I do not want to miss it with anything else in the world. 

I would like to hear more about it. 

If it is from the way it is taught from the scriptures. 

 

 

[Starise]

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Oh I see. That is how I see it. The 'soul' ceases to 'be' until the resurrection where there are only two options: receive the Holy Spirit from God and live, or you will not be given it and you will perish. Had Nebuchadnezzar not made his decision to 'look up and praise God' he would never have been restored to his kingdom (life). Whereas his grandson, Belshazzar, was also 'out of his right mind by continuing to drink the wine' and he did perish that same night.

However we lose our mind (symbolically meaning to fall away from our God and Savior), it is our choice. The choice can ONLY be made at the 'soul' level (while we are in the body as breathed by God). This choice will determine if He restores His Holy Spirit (not THE HOLY SPIRIT) back into each of us at the resurrection. 

just my thoughts, Charlie

Hello Charlie,

Like so many other subjects in the bible this one has certain aspects which make it a curiosity for me. People tend to take either side A or side B when there are likely other possibilities, or at the very least, other considerations on the subject. These other considerations are what I was trying to bring out. In order to answer the questions we might sometimes be looking in the wrong places. I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence here, it's just the way we all tend to look for the fastest answer so we can get on to the next question.

We often answer things  to OUR SATISFACTION. Not necessarily the best answer. I think it's also important to consider we won't know everything in great detail until the day when those who are the Lord's are on the other side. So many things are taught in churches now that people simply take for granted as fact, so I'm careful to see if I can find out a little more on some of these subjects and not take the accepted answers. Even then, there is a point where I simply stop when I know that unless the Lord reveals it to me I can't go any further. I have all of the details available to me and they aren't always enough. Often there are gems to be found.

I have not yet arrived at the conclusion you mentioned but I'm close. There is no harm or loss to  believe either view since we are still with the Lord either way. I rather like the view I'm tending to lean against because it seems to most acceptable to me. That I'll be a floating soul in Heaven with Jesus after I die playing football with the saints on a nice endless meadow. I like that. It pulls me in emotionally, yet is it really true? We seem to have other scriptures that contradict it unless they can be rightly explained another way. One side will try to discredit the verses in Ecclesiastes among other supporting texts while the other side will point out that a parable is a parable. A story designed to tell a story. That parable shows the strict division between what happens to those who decide not to follow Christ. The story idea behind the parable is not false. The events are intended to be understood as a story. It assumes two things- There is a good place the children of God eventually go to. There is a bad place where those who rejected God will go to. Are these real places? I believe them to be fictional depictions of real situations. Fictional examples that relay an idea rather than a fact.

What you seem to be referring to here is we have lost the part of us that made us godlike. I would agree. We are in a fallen state. Eastern religions try to substitute this with the 3rd eye they claim needs to be opened. In reality this is demonic. Our "3rd eye" was our direct link to Yahweh. We can get a partial recovery through salvation, yet while we are in these bodies we are held back until Jesus completely restores us.

[Starise]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Did you find any examples? 

 

For the record: I am not SDA, either. 

Methuselah live 969 years..........................and he died.Most old testament genealogy is worded like this.................and he died. It never says they went to be with the Lord. It simply says they died. In the scriptures referring to the resurrection of the saints it doesn't say we will meet our souls in the air. 

The bible plainly say we will be resurrected. I try not to read more into the text than what is there. I take the text to mean we will be resurrected in our entirety.

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, Starise said:

Where is the soul of the person who is brain dead on life support?

Are you advocating "soul sleep?" Let me back up and go from there, so I don't get confused. I cannot be dogmatic about my views, as many factors determine our individual hermeneutics and belief's.

You spoke of the "dumbed down version" above. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Yes, our minds cannot fully comprehend the complexity of this subject matter. To paraphrase it another way; It's above our paygrade, but trust the Lord. 

Apparently, the angels don't fully understand some things either, and desire to study them: 1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

18 hours ago, Starise said:

Where is the soul of the person who is brain dead on life support?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This implies to me, unless the Lord for His plans and purpose, sees fit to revive the brain or body; dead is dead. Our bodies are a visible vessel, the soul and spirit are things unseen. A question I've pondered; does our spirit and soul have weight and mass? 

Citing the biblical example of the rich man and Lazarus: Immediately following physical death, our souls go to one of two places, torment or comfort. 

18 hours ago, Starise said:

God both breathes a soul into man and receives that soul back at death.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 

Spirit = H. rûwach; Soul = H. nephesh

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It appears for both the saved and the lost, their spirits will return back to the Lord upon death, not their souls? 

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

My thoughts are: Every human is given a spirit; it is the telephone line that connects our souls (our being) to the Throne of God, through prayer. Will the Lord answer a prayer of an atheist, or better said, an enemy? I believe the only prayer God will hear from a lost soul first; is a prayer of confession, asking for Salvation, and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Without this phone connection (our spirit given to us), there would be no way to personally communicate with God. 

As I alluded to earlier; I think our souls are the invisible part of us, of who we really are. Our love, our hate, our evil and our thoughts and intentions, our dirty rags, our wants and desires, our unique personalities, our likes and dislikes; every fiber of our individual being. As with snowflakes, our hermeneutics, and our DNA, no two are exactly alike. 

As with my understanding of; "which things the angels desire to look into." That angels are not omniscient, they study and observe, and continue to learn. Right now, in our human form, we are studying and training for eternity with our Lord. I suspect we will continue to be taught and learn throughout all of eternity. 

That's exciting!

[Scott Free]

19 hours ago, Starise said:

Yes, just food for thought. Where is the soul of the person who is brain dead on life support? Is it trapped in them unaware of what's happening? I would probably say yes. If we say yes, then we have to admit the existence of the non thinking soul. If there are non thinking souls, then why can't some accept that when we die we could be in the same state until the resurrection?

 "That the idea of the soul's immortality as disembodied state beyond death is not popular amongst Christian theologians or among Christian philosophers today has already been acknowledged.", Hebblethwaite, "Philosophical theology and Christian doctrine", p. 113 (2005).

[Dennis1209]

59 minutes ago, Starise said:

We seem to have other scriptures that contradict it unless they can be rightly explained another way. One side will try to discredit the verses in Ecclesiastes among other supporting texts while the other side will point out that a parable is a parable. A story designed to tell a story. That parable shows the strict division between what happens to those who decide not to follow Christ. The story idea behind the parable is not false. The events are intended to be understood as a story. It assumes two things- There is a good place the children of God eventually go to. There is a bad place where those who rejected God will go to. Are these real places? I believe them to be fictional depictions of real situations. Fictional examples that relay an idea rather than a fact.

A question to ask is; what distinguishes a literary parable, from a historical event, reality or fact, fable vs. historical? How about some help Mr. Webster?

 PAR´ABLE, n. [Fr. parabole, from L. parabola; Gr. παραθολη, from παραθαλλω, to throw forward or against, to compare; παρα, to or against, and θαλλω, to throw; as in confero, collatum, to set together, or one thing with another.]
 A fable or allegorical relation or representation of something real in life or nature, from which a moral is drawn for instruction; such as the parable of the trees choosing a king, Judges 9.; the parable of the poor man and his lamb, 2 Sam 12.; the parable of the ten virgins, Matt. 25.
 PAR´ABLE, v. t. To represent by fiction or fable.

A parable that cites proper names and proper places, is not a parable (IE. the rich man, Lazarus, and Haides). Just my 2 mites. 

I enjoy our discussions and debates, iron sharpens iron. We consider and learn, checking the Bible to see if those things be so. 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Are you advocating "soul sleep?" Let me back up and go from there, so I don't get confused. I cannot be dogmatic about my views, as many factors determine our individual hermeneutics and belief's.

You spoke of the "dumbed down version" above. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Yes, our minds cannot fully comprehend the complexity of this subject matter. To paraphrase it another way; It's above our paygrade, but trust the Lord. 

Apparently, the angels don't fully understand some things either, and desire to study them: 1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This implies to me, unless the Lord for His plans and purpose, sees fit to revive the brain or body; dead is dead. Our bodies are a visible vessel, the soul and spirit are things unseen. A question I've pondered; does our spirit and soul have weight and mass? 

Citing the biblical example of the rich man and Lazarus: Immediately following physical death, our souls go to one of two places, torment or comfort. 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 

Spirit = H. rûwach; Soul = H. nephesh

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It appears for both the saved and the lost, their spirits will return back to the Lord upon death, not their souls? 

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

My thoughts are: Every human is given a spirit; it is the telephone line that connects our souls (our being) to the Throne of God, through prayer. Will the Lord answer a prayer of an atheist, or better said, an enemy? I believe the only prayer God will hear from a lost soul first; is a prayer of confession, asking for Salvation, and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Without this phone connection (our spirit given to us), there would be no way to personally communicate with God. 

As I alluded to earlier; I think our souls are the invisible part of us, of who we really are. Our love, our hate, our evil and our thoughts and intentions, our dirty rags, our wants and desires, our unique personalities, our likes and dislikes; every fiber of our individual being. As with snowflakes, our hermeneutics, and our DNA, no two are exactly alike. 

As with my understanding of; "which things the angels desire to look into." That angels are not omniscient, they study and observe, and continue to learn. Right now, in our human form, we are studying and training for eternity with our Lord. I suspect we will continue to be taught and learn throughout all of eternity. 

That's exciting!

Just a few comments / opinions / thoughts on this response:

1) Before one starts to determine where man’s ‘parts’ go after death shouldn’t they first identify the ‘parts’ that are there? Which of course brings us back to Genesis which describes HOW God made Adam. There seems to me to be a clear difference between Adam before the fall and after he was removed from Eden. That difference is ONLY the Holiness that was breathed into him at his creation- this was the ‘covering’ that was removed and now he knew he was naked. He was no longer immortal. That breathed in Holy Spirit went back to God. What was left (parts) on the other side of the Garden- Adam the living soul composed of earth and God’s breath of life (spirit- small s). At death the ‘spirit of life’ returns to God who gave it, the body returns to the earth and await the resurrection. 

But everything depends on the definition of a man (Adam BECAME a living soul, there is no soul only as a separate entity- it is a bringing together of 2 components. 

The definition that a parable must follow a set of rules (man made) is (just my opinion) ridiculous. To me, this is similar to when people contend that all prophetic verse where a time element is found must be interpreted in a ‘year for a day’ principle.  Simply look at the context to see what God’s message is... that once you die you can not change your fate. There are more than enough verses in the Scriptures clearly telling us ‘the dead know nothing’. It can not be both- one is clear and unambiguous and others are being interpreted there is consciousness after death- heaven or hell. 

Thes. 5:23 - He prays our spirit, soul and body are ‘preserved’ blameless until the coming of the Lord. The key here is PRESERVED... after death we are awaiting His return where WE will be brought back together and if blameless, God will restore His Holy Spirit to us as He gave Adam before the fall.

Corinthians 5:8- THE MOST MISUSED and MISINTERPRETED verse in the entire Bible .... it does NOT tell us ‘absent from the body and present with the Lord’ as perhaps 95% of every preacher, pastor, priest, etc., tells us it says! It is telling us that Paul would RATHER be with Jesus than here on earth!!! He longed to be with Him and would RATHER die than be on earth because he experienced first hand what Jesus was like. 

My opinion again- Jesus came to the earth for a very special and specific mission- and He completed everything He had to do (6 requirements in chapter 9). He also showed us how to fulfill the law- the 10 commandments (not do away with them but to live them). He also showed us what will happen to each and every one of us at death: our body will return to the earth where we await the resurrection. Jesus did just that on the Sabbath. Before He died, He spoke to His Father and said, ‘into Your Hands I commit my spirit’. Unlike each of us, Jesus HAD to give up His spirit (once again it is the little s), because He told us, ‘no one takes His life, I gave it up’. On the 3rd day He was resurrected with a new ‘perfected’ body. He now had the Spirit (big S) restorer in Him as we will as well (if you our a believer). 

That is our path as well. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

[Biblican]

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I understand that this is a big problem. 

There a lot of muslims who read these post.

What do you say to them? 

Because muslims are believers in the after Life. 

They are not supporting many of the positions taken by some scholars.

No moslem has ever come to believe in Jesus Christ reading the books of those scholars. 

But reading the bible and the things pertaining to the life after death in Jesus Christ they have come to understand with the help of the Holy Spirit after the Holy Spirit has engage in a spiritual warfare in the individual moslem with the moslem spirits who do not want to loose and want to hold on their sheep.

This is why we need to olant the right seed that the Holy Spirit can use to cultivate their ground. 

For the word we put to them to begin to. Sprout. 

The Holy Spirit of the Father has been given to Jesus Christ for his ministry but also it says that God and Jesus Christ are not Hostile with one another. 

This is when we are In Jesus Christ we also are in the Heavenly Father. 

Because God has made Jesus Christ the Governor of his Kingdom.

Jesus Christ rules the Kingdom of the Heavenly Father. 

This is why no one can have the Heavenly Father without Jesus Christ. 

Many Muslims are coming to Jesus now because they are receiving dreams of Him. The Lord is working to reach all the ones He knows will come to Him. Muslims need to understand that Jesus is restoring the relationship that God had with Abraham. Abraham was led by God's Spirit and was led into righteousness naturally before any written law was given.

[Scott Free]

14 hours ago, Biblican said:

Exactly. That's why the Lord had me study the subject of how the scriptures use the words soul and spirit in relation to the Trinity for two years.

Then can you explain this?

Tabor, James, What the Bible says about Death, Afterlife, and the Future. "The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. Human beings, like the beasts of the field, are made of "dust of the earth," and at death they return to that dust (Gen. 2:7; 3:19). The Hebrew word nephesh, traditionally translated "living soul" but more properly understood as "living creature," is the same word used for all breathing creatures and refers to nothing immortal.

[Biblican]

9 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

Then can you explain this?

Tabor, James, What the Bible says about Death, Afterlife, and the Future. "The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. Human beings, like the beasts of the field, are made of "dust of the earth," and at death they return to that dust (Gen. 2:7; 3:19). The Hebrew word nephesh, traditionally translated "living soul" but more properly understood as "living creature," is the same word used for all breathing creatures and refers to nothing immortal.

Jesus contradicts him by His parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. The Hebrew scriptures also show that we are resurrected. If the body disintegrates, is vaporized in an explosion, etc. then that would mean there is no hope for the soul to have an afterlife if it is one with the body and not separated at death. 

The word soul is used to designate the person of anyone. The Messiah's soul is an offering for our sins in Isaiah 53:10. The word is associated with God the Father and Jesus in the scriptures, they both have persons/souls. 

The person you are quoting is in error.