Angels

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, other one said:

Those Angels that are locked away in chains are the 200 or so that left their places and came here in the physical world and mated with human women.    The other 30 million or so along with Satan, are still free to do whatever...

Shalom, other one.

I disagree with this theory. I believe that the word "n'filiym" in Genesis 6:4 is a Hebrew word that means "wood-cutters" or "lumberjacks." They were the "Hell's Angels bikers" of the antediluvian world! They weren't showing any restraint, and they TOOK wives like chattel! This is similar to our problems today with white slavery and sex trafficking!

Don't think of these "sons of God" as "angels" but as men who CALL THEMSELVES "sons of God" because they were permitted to stay upon the surface of the earth when the children of Qayin ("Cain") had to go underground to their city Chanokh. It's actually a label of PREJUDICE!

See, here's the history: Every Christian knows the story of Qayin and Hevel ("Cain and Abel"), but let's look at the details....

Genesis 4:1-16 (KJV)

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Where is Abel thy brother?"

And he said,

"I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?"

10 And he said,

"What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."

13 And Cain said unto the LORD,

"My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me!"

15 And the LORD said unto him,

"Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."

And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

The name "Nowd" ("Nod") means "Wandering." Qayin's curse is very telling! No longer would the ground yield him food in abundance when he tilled the ground. And, "he would be a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND IN the earth!" So, he's now on the run, avoiding other children of Adam for fear that they would kill him!

And, what did he say about it? He said, "You've driven me out this day from the (sur)face of the earth; and from your face I'll be hid. I'll be a fugitive and a vagabond IN the earth, and everyone who finds me shall kill me!"

God protected him by setting a mark on him; so, people would be warned not to hurt him at the risk of suffering 7 times as much. But, he still left from the presence of YHWH and lived in Nowd or Wandering.

Qayin had one of his sisters as his wife, and together, they went underground (driven out from the surface of the earth to live IN the earth). This suggests that Nowd was a cavern system in which one could easily hide and where others might get lost if hunting him.

Then, Qayin and his wife have a son:

Genesis 4:17-22 (KJV)

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad:
and Irad begat Mehujael:
and Mehujael begat Methusael:
and Methusael begat Lamech. 

19 And Lamech took unto him two wives:
the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

Naamah is mentioned, Jews believe, because she became the wife of Noach.

It's very likely that all of this for six generations happened underground in this city of Qayin's called "Chanokh" after his son. Then, something terrible happened:

Genesis 4:23-24 (KJV)

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah,

"Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold!"

Notice, however, that Lemekh ("Lamech") said this himself; God didn't say it for him, nor did God give him a mark as He did for Qayin. So, even though he killed in self-defense, he still killed a man, and revengers of blood could be out to kill him! I believe this was the first family to leave the cavern system. This would also explain why it wasn't until "Jabal" that someone was called "the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle." Not used to the direct sunlight, they needed protection and built dwelling places that could be portable to follow the livestock - TENTS.

Meanwhile, back on the surface of the earth ...

Genesis 4:25-26 (KJV)

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

This does NOT mean that they were the first to seek YHWH. It means that they were the first to attach YHWH'S name to their own as a TALISMAN! a GOOD LUCK CHARM! This is when they started to call themselves "sons of God," as opposed to the men and women who had to live underground, who were mere men and women, not blessed by living in God's presence under the open sun.

After the genealogy of Genesis 5, we continue the story in chapter 6:

Genesis 6:1-7 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they TOOK them wives OF ALL WHICH THEY CHOSE. 3 And the LORD said,

"My spirit shall not always strive with MAN, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years!"

4 There were giants (Hebrew: nfaliym = lumberjacks) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of MAN was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made MAN on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said,

"I will destroy MAN whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Notice that God didn't say ONE THING about "angels!" He was angry with "MAN!" Why? Because they had "TAKEN them wives OF ALL WHICH THEY CHOSE!" This is a denouncement on them because of FORCED CAPTURE! When the "Sons of God" did this to the "daughters of men," again terms of prejudice, and these wives bare children to them, these guys were PRAISED even though they essentially RAPED these women, FORCING them to be their wives! They were HELD IN RENOWN! They became the MIGHTY MEN - the admired people given positions of honor and power! LEADERS and PILLARS of their community! Instead of being condemned, they were honored and praised!

Perhaps this is all just so much conjecture, but I submit that this fits the facts better than saying that "angels cohabited with women."

[other one]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I disagree with this theory.

that's fine, many do.

[Selah7]

It's fascinating to learn about God's celestial creatures. The seraphim and the four living creatures appear to be the same beings.  The seraphims are mentioned in Isaiah 6. (the 4 living creatures). These are the same living beings seen by Ezekiel and the apostle John.  The name "seraphims," as defined by Strong's # 8314, means "fire" or "fiery," as in “fiery ones,” and is merely a symbolic and descriptive term for the four living beings who are always present before the throne.

Isaiah 6:2
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

(3)  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

These are the same words of praise the apostle John heard these living beings say at the throne when he was taken there:  "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8-11

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Ezekiel 1:3-9

3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Selah7

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Selah7 said:

It'll be just like it was before the flood in the days of Noah, when "they," the fallen angels, descended upon the earth and seduced women.

It's impossible to mix iron and clay—communism and Christianity will never blend.  I believe that as a result, the New World Order will suffer a deadly wound.  I also believe it will be the Elect who will cause this to happen.  Just my opinion, though.

The generation closest to “that day” will understand it best. Prophetic scripture (especially Daniel and Revelation) has assumed advanced global human technology in the last few days, the terminal generation.

What other generation in history could fathom how the Two Witnesses would be globally watched in real-time (live streaming). One individual controlling the entire planet (artificial intelligence, computers, a personal identification number, controlling your finances, money, and spending, and so much more).

We are looking at what a personal identification number can and cannot do. Without a social security number, how difficult is it to get a job, a doctor’s appointment, a loan, health insurance, electronic deposits and payments, credit, etc.?

 Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

According to experts, our knowledge is doubling every 12 hours, and I believe this scripture has a dual meaning, purpose, and interpretation.

This knowledge is also awareness and understanding of the prophetic scriptures and how these things are fitting together. These are just some thoughts of mine. We are living in exciting times.

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, DignifiedResponse said:

The Angels which God created, are not created "eternal".  They are, as mankind is, created with conditional life, which is borrowed, or on loan from God, and God may at His will cause that life to return to Himself.

Acts 17:25: "Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;"

Prov 22:7: "The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender."

Lucifer/satan and all the rebellious angels will be destroyed in the lake of fire to come, reduced to ashes, and not be any more.

Mal 4:1: "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Mal 4:3: "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

Ezek 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Ps 7:9: "Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins."

Rev 20:9: "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Lev 10:2: "And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

2Ths 1:9: "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Joel 1:15: "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

Jer 17:18: "Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction."

Prov 16:18: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Job 31:3: "Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?"

Ezek 28:16: "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

I do not endorse that theology with the idea of the annihilation of the spirit and soul, and my hermeneutics convince me otherwise. I’m not out to change anyone’s view and understanding; I’m only stating my perception that may or may not be accurate.

Scholars are split on the issue, and I’m merely a Bible student on milk, trying to get to the meat & potato’s biblical understanding level.

[Retrobyter]

57 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

It's fascinating to learn about God's celestial creatures. The seraphim and the four living creatures appear to be the same beings.  The seraphims are mentioned in Isaiah 6. (the 4 living creatures). These are the same living beings seen by Ezekiel and the apostle John.  The name "seraphims," as defined by Strong's # 8314, means "fire" or "fiery," as in “fiery ones,” and is merely a symbolic and descriptive term for the four living beings who are always present before the throne.

Shalom, Selah7.

I agree. It's fascinating, but I'm rather of the opinion that these aren't just "celestial creatures" but are actual beings that were created during the 6 days of Creation. I don't think of them as "symbolic" at all. There's just too much phyiscal description.

57 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Isaiah 6:2
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

(3)  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

These are the same words of praise the apostle John heard these living beings say at the throne when he was taken there:  "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8-11

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

(Holding tongue in cheek,) The information that they were "full of eyes," if they were literal, could explain how they could "cover their faces" with two of their wings and still be able to see where they were going while flying with two other wings. 😁 Just a thought.

57 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

 

Ezekiel 1:3-9

3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

 

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, DignifiedResponse said:

Just a question for clarification please:

When you say, "The Lord is omnipresent", do you mean through His omniscience (as Psalms 139 teaches), or do you mean in a pantheistic or panentheistic way, where God is in tree, rock, saint and sinner?; And if the latter, can you explain Revelation 3:20 in that light?, Thank you.

The human mind cannot grasp omni-anything. In simpleton terms, God is everywhere all at once; nothing escapes His attention, He is available to us when we call upon His name. In my opinion, that is one reason why Hades and the Lake of Fire (death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire) are so horrific.

All blessings and good things flow from God, even to the unjust.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

The Lord's presence is eternally removed in Hades, followed by Lake of Fire with no second chance. In Hell, with the absence of the presence of God, his blessings, and everything good. The only thing left to look forward to is total separation from God and every imaginable bad.

[luigi]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:19 PM, Riverwalker said:

Okay then I have a question about Jude

I have no problem that 1/3 of the angels fell, I am just not sure they are free to mess with men, as Satan is

Jude seem to suggest they are not

 Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

If the judgment of the great day, is that at the end of the millennium reign after Satan is loosed from his prison (Revelation 20:7); then the millennium reign of Christ in which Satan and his angels are incapable of deceiving mankind (Revelation 20:3), could possibly represent the reserved period in which Satan along with his angels are in chains. Satan is only temporarily loosed from his prison; he is right back in the lake of fire (his prison) at the end of it all (Revelation 20:10).  

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The human mind cannot grasp omni-anything. In simpleton terms, God is everywhere all at once; nothing escapes His attention, He is available to us when we call upon His name. In my opinion, that is one reason why Hades and the Lake of Fire (death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire) are so horrific.

Shalom, Dennis1209.

First, one should know that Yeshua` NEVER used the Greek word "hadees" as the Greek philosophers and myths did. The word means the "unseen." It comes from "idees," meaning "seen," with the negative particle "a-" attached. The word was used similarly to our use of the word, the "unknown." To think this word refers to the "underworld" is wrong.

It's this misconception that led to people believing that Satan was like the Greek god Hades, as the king of the underworld by the same name. How often do you find mythological pictures representing Satan as the King of a fiery Hell? He doesn't want to go to the Lake of Fire any more than a human would want to go!

9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

All blessings and good things flow from God, even to the unjust.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

The Lord's presence is eternally removed in Hades, followed by Lake of Fire with no second chance. In Hell, with the absence of the presence of God, his blessings, and everything good. The only thing left to look forward to is total separation from God and every imaginable bad.

No, you're forgetting that the Lord is the JUDGE! And, YHWH God is His Father! God will be PERSONALLY OFFENDED if one rejects the GIFT of HIS ONLY SON! Furthermore, you're forgetting that YHWH God is OMNIPRESENT as well as ETERNAL! He is EVERYWHERE, even in the Lake of Fire to be sure it stays hot enough for all eternity!

[Starise]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:46 PM, DignifiedResponse said:

That is impossible according to scripture, because of the angels (fallen or unfallen) very flesh nature, which differs than "the seed of Abraham". 

No, I disagree. There are many things that occurred in the bible that don't seem to make sense, yet the bible says they happened. Further study often provides an explanation.

On 2/24/2022 at 9:46 PM, DignifiedResponse said:

According to scripture, "kind" only brings forth "kind" and created Heavenly host "kind" are not the same as man"kind" to be able to "bare" between them.

Please indicate your scripture references for this. Yes we have bible that tells us God made kind to beget kind. What we don't have is scriptural confirmation God's creation did not corrupt His creation. What we have is the opposite.

On 2/24/2022 at 9:46 PM, DignifiedResponse said:

Satan and his hosts are limited to what can be directly and indirectly done to mankind.  This is seen from Genesis 1-3 (3:15) and since Calvary (Revelation 12:10; Romans 5:6).

Enmity produces rivalry. Rivalry produces war, and sometimes war produces rape. Especially if it furthers a cause. The existence of enmity does not cancel out physical abuse.