WHAT TIME DO YOU HAVE?

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I can't. It would too closely abut law of first mention, a fallacious proposition. The defining characteristic is context. Usage is always defined by context. Definitions are one thing, usage another, context the overarching guiding star.

It's inescapable "until all these things have happened." refers to, and iterates what came before. Context is this parable, "As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near.", explained as and likened to, "So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door."

So the only way we know Jesus is near is when we see, " all these things". This isn't a time stamp, it's conditional. Jesus literally cannot be near until and unless these things are occurring.

And it's not in the context of Matt 24:4-8 as it's said, "see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come". So whatever is said in 4-8 isn't related to the end as Jesus exhorts calm maybe even stoicism as this isn't the end. 

So when it's said, "So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near," Jesus is speaking of the end of which 4-8 is not a part as He said, "the end is still to come". Then it's everything after that to which He referred which is Matt 24:15-31 as we see the end only comes after Matt 24:9-14, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

This end that's coming is only after the gospel has been preached/published to everyone. Then the things from "all these things" is what transpires after v 14, from 15-31. 

That can only be the same 'things' referred to in v 34, which 'things' must occur in the sight of the one generation, the terminal generation, alive at the time "all these things" happen. 

So if it can be demonstrated Matt 24:15-31 has occurred in the past, since the 1st century, in full and complete, then I'm all in. If not then it's all still coming.

Whether 'you' refers to wars or people isn't relevant, imo. This is over whether the near demonstrative modifies in relation to time or conditions. Since there is no language in Matt 24:32-34 concerning time, but in stark contrast to the idea of time we see a direct statement of extant conditions, "when you see all these things," and again, "until all these things have happened", then it must be conditions and not time. 

Incidentally one of the most prominent markers of nearness to the beginning of the end in my mind is the publishing/preaching of the gospel to all nations. 

There are organizations that keep track of all the languages and if the gospel has been translated into that language or not. It's not complete according to them, but not far off. 

 

 

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

These are two fascinating verses for our day, and as with everything else, much debate. As you mention, to my knowledge, the Gospel has not been available to every nation, tribe, and tongue yet, but it is very close. Based on the preponderance of scripture, I suspect we are the terminal generation witnessing all these things happening.

Paul reveals something that was kept hidden, the fulness of the Gentiles coming in. I’ve always thought the Lord has a specific number of people to be saved, and when that very last person will be saved, that completes the fulness of the Gentiles (the church). With this predetermined number reached, the Resurrection-Rapture of the church occurs, ending the age of Grace.[1]

Let’s connect the dots and see how the Big Picture develops here. Jesus said that the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control would signal that the ‘fulness of the Gentiles be come in’. Jesus said of the generation on earth at that time, “This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:32). Paul says that the Jews, as an institution, rejected Jesus so that the Gentiles would have a chance at salvation. He said that God would not return His attention to Israel until ‘the fulness of the Gentiles be come in’. The ‘fulness of the Gentiles’ indicates a finite number — a ‘quota’, so to speak — of Gentiles who will come to know Christ during the Church Age.

Once that quota — the Church Age ‘elect’ have been gathered, God returns His attention to the Jews, “And so all Israel shall be saved” — because “the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” That Jesus offered salvation first to Israel is confirmed by His own Words as recorded by John.[2]

The restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control occurred during the Israeli Six-Day War in 1967. The fulness of the Gentiles may also imply mid-Tribulation or the second coming of our Lord? Whether it has a singular or dual meaning, we are watching it unfold at present.

 

 

---

[1] Dennis

[2] Jack Kinsella

[other one]

the time is one hour later than it was last week.

[Selah7]

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Good morning, Dennis . . .

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

- Acts 2:1-6 (NKJV)

"You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. "But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; "for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

- Matthew 10:18-20 (NKJV)

When the end comes, the Holy Spirit will work in the same way as it did on the day of Pentecost.  Everyone will understand the Gospel message because it will be the Holy Spirit preaching through us.  The whole world will hear it!

 

[Selah7]

- Continued . . .

Also, the Two Witnesses will be prophesying! 

"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

- Revelation 11:3 (NKJV)

[Alive]

Are we beating around the bush, some?

Can we deal more directly with, this generation, all these things and what the NT has to say about all nations?

What is the bear in the room?

:-)

[Alive]

I was typing as the last post. Was sent.

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Selah7 said:

- Continued . . .

Also, the Two Witnesses will be prophesying! 

"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

- Revelation 11:3 (NKJV)

Since you mentioned this debated subject, what are your thoughts? They are not named the two Gospel preachers, the Two Representatives of God, Antichrist’s adversaries, but the Two Witnesses. What is required to be an eyewitness, and legally how many establish it as fact?

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Who, what, and when did these two men personally see something they will personally attest and confirm? Some speculate these Two Witnesses are representative of the New and Old Covenants, but I do not hold that view myself.

We are not told, but I get thoughts about the unidentified ‘two men’ at the sepulcher of Jesus, the unidentified ‘two men’ at the ascension of Jesus, and who are present at Jesus transfiguration.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We know Moses died, and God Himself buried Moses. For decades I believed the only two men who did not taste death were Enoch and Elijah. Elijah was transported in a whirlwind elsewhere, as Philip was harpazo (supernaturally snatched away) immediately to another location.

It seems evident Elisha replaced Elijah for God’s plan and purpose; Elijah was not translated but transported by the whirlwind to another location (from Judah to Israel). Therefore, he would have physically died but his death is not recorded. How and from where can this understanding be obtained you ask?

[Selah7]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Since you mentioned this debated subject, what are your thoughts? They are not named the two Gospel preachers, the Two Representatives of God, Antichrist’s adversaries, but the Two Witnesses. What is required to be an eyewitness, and legally how many establish it as fact?

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Who, what, and when did these two men personally see something they will personally attest and confirm? Some speculate these Two Witnesses are representative of the New and Old Covenants, but I do not hold that view myself.

We are not told, but I get thoughts about the unidentified ‘two men’ at the sepulcher of Jesus, the unidentified ‘two men’ at the ascension of Jesus, and who are present at Jesus transfiguration.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We know Moses died, and God Himself buried Moses. For decades I believed the only two men who did not taste death were Enoch and Elijah. Elijah was transported in a whirlwind elsewhere, as Philip was harpazo (supernaturally snatched away) immediately to another location.

It seems evident Elisha replaced Elijah for God’s plan and purpose; Elijah was not translated but transported by the whirlwind to another location (from Judah to Israel). Therefore, he would have physically died but his death is not recorded. How and from where can this understanding be obtained you ask?

The two witnesses are mentioned in Revelation Chapter 11.  Also, another place in the Old Testament that foretells of their coming is Zechariah, chapter  4.

Revelation 11:1-19:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.   

Zechariah 4:1-14:

Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. "Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left." So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?" Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts. 'Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' " Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "The hands of Zerubbabel Have laid the foundation of this temple; His hands shall also finish it. Then you will know That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth." Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?" And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?" Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

…

I don’t think we need to know who these two witnesses will be; we can speculate, however.  My guess would be Moses and Elijah, but who really knows? 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Selah7

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

The two witnesses are mentioned in Revelation Chapter 11.  Also, another place in the Old Testament that foretells of their coming is Zechariah, chapter  4.

Revelation 11:1-19:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.   

Zechariah 4:1-14:

Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. "Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left." So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?" Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts. 'Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' " Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "The hands of Zerubbabel Have laid the foundation of this temple; His hands shall also finish it. Then you will know That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth." Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?" And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?" Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

…

I don’t think we need to know who these two witnesses will be; we can speculate, however.  My guess would be Moses and Elijah, but who really knows? 

Hi Selah7,

Those are my guesses also. I will try to keep this brief as to why identifying the Two Witnesses is theologically profitable. The Bible describes these Two Witnesses with the same powers they had ministering in the flesh on earth (Moses & Elijah).

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Does this apply to every human being ever born? Are there any exceptions? Was the author of Hebrews talking about from this point forward? Enoch was the only human not to taste death because he pleased God. Enoch was translated and removed before the global wrath of God. With the subsequent global wrath of God, does the true church of Jesus Christ please God? I believe Enoch represents a picture, type, and shadow of the worldwide judgment of the wicked, his removal before wrath.

There is scriptural evidence Elijah lived on earth well after being transported by a chariot in a whirlwind, and Elijah was not translated but transported somewhere else like Philip was.

What about all the people Jesus and the Apostles resurrected? What was their status? All the people Jesus resurrected that were seen by many in Jerusalem? Did they have to die twice, or were they eventually translated? Another one of those questions we do not know but speculate.

If they are Moses & Elijah, the Two witnesses will undoubtedly have to die twice, not once physically. So, it appears we have another exception to Hebrews 9:27?

How did John, Peter, and James know Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus at His transfiguration? The Two Witnesses will be preaching the Gospel in Israel in general and Jerusalem in particular. No doubt, the Jews of that time will know precisely the identity of who these two are.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

These are two fascinating verses for our day, and as with everything else, much debate. As you mention, to my knowledge, the Gospel has not been available to every nation, tribe, and tongue yet, but it is very close. Based on the preponderance of scripture, I suspect we are the terminal generation witnessing all these things happening.

So there is this;

https://joshuaproject.net/resources/articles/has_everyone_heard

To make, not just a convert, but a disciple of Jesus requires the Scriptures to be available in the mother tongue. Bible translation agencies report that approximately 1,800 languages have definite translation need.

That means for mother-tongue speakers of those 1,800 languages no Scripture exists at all. They may have limited access to the Scriptures in trade or major languages, but no access in their heart language. Of course the languages with the larger number of speakers have been translated but many millions of individuals still do not have the Scriptures in their mother-tongue.

https://progress.bible/

Has some info on this too.

 

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Paul reveals something that was kept hidden, the fulness of the Gentiles coming in. I’ve always thought the Lord has a specific number of people to be saved, and when that very last person will be saved, that completes the fulness of the Gentiles (the church). With this predetermined number reached, the Resurrection-Rapture of the church occurs, ending the age of Grace.[1]

I wish I knew more about this. Raised in eschatology as  a premillennial dispensationalist this 'fullness of the gentiles' was often cited as a marker or time stamp. I always felt it meant some spiritual fulness like, the height of wickedness, or some such. 

I know this isn't a reliable source but in the movies and fiction writing it's been mentioned there is a finite number of souls. Lately I heard the population growth of earth has slowed to a balance or negative growth. Probably means nothing. 

 

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Let’s connect the dots and see how the Big Picture develops here. Jesus said that the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control would signal that the ‘fulness of the Gentiles be come in’.

Could you please clarify this for me? I don't understand.