Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Sister]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Those that are coming with Christ are FAITHFUL...they were already faithful before they got to the earth with Christ...God is not going to take them and train them to be faithful because they weren't faithful before...NO. THEY WERE ALREADY FAITHFUL or they wouldn't be coming with Christ.

No, many did something that proved them faithful in the end.  One act Gary.  One great sacrifice.  One big test where they had to choose what side they were going to be on.

Look, it's not all black and white.  Many will be just lacking in doctrine.  Not knowing much.  Not knowing anything.  Just having that faith in Christ.  These need to be taught doctrine first before they can be 'priests'.  How long does it take to teach a resurrected saint?  I don't know, but I know the Lord has a lot of time on his hands and everyone will reap what they have sown, even the saints.

Mark 4:24   And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

 

[Sister]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

What you are proposing is that they need further training, when God had already accepted them..they don't need further training..they were ALREADY holy, chosen, faithful and called BEFORE the resurrection took place...

Yes I propose that.  They need to be taught.  This is not invented in my head, or made up.  I have searched out and thought about all the reasons why this has to be, and only know the resurrected saints have to be taught because of what is written in Rev 7.  The Word tells me this is going to happen.

Revelation 7:9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:10   And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
 

Revelation 7:13   And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 

(They came out of great tribulation.  It's finished.  All sins are forgiven)

Revelation 7:15   Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

  Revelation 7:16   They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

(the saints don't need the sun.  The sun is still needed for those in the flesh, they still have day and night, and need to grow things and need the light of the sun to work during the day)

  Revelation 7:17   For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

They came out of great tribulation.  All of them.  They are standing there at the resurrection.  The lamb is going to lead them to truth, after the fact.  WHY?  They must of not received it before.  They need to be taught, Christ SHALL lead them there.

You are rejecting these scriptures, rejecting it's the resurrection.  A misinterpretation of even a small scripture or event can lead into much error.

If you are wrong Gary, would you want mercy?  Would you want to be standing there with them or cast out?  Are you wicked Gary?  I don't think so.

I know if I was wrong in doctrine, I would crave mercy, and would have to be corrected in the next life.  I would accept that and realise that I ended up being a vessel made of wood or earth, or of dishonour.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Sister

[transmogrified]

8 minutes ago, Sister said:

The saints of the resurrection have been 'forgiven'. 

Yes, they are washed in the blood..they are also:

1) Sanctified...

2) Justified..

3) Holy...

4) Righteous..

10 minutes ago, Sister said:

Their robes made white in the blood of the Lamb.  Their sins blotted out. 

As sure as their sins were blotted out so are they 

1) Sanctified..

2) Justified...

3) Holy..

4) Righteous..

1 Cor. 6:11 - And such were some of you...but ye are

1) Washed..but ye are..

2) Sanctified... but ye are..

3) Justified...

So as sure as you can say saints are washed, the rest of the scripture is true as well...if the bride is granted to be clothed in fine linen and that linen is the righteousness of the saints...what is she clothed in? Dirty garments that need to be worked over? NO NO NO.

She is Blessed and she is Holy.

Think about the dead in Christ rising...here are the graves with good and bad people in them...what happens? The Dead in Christ rise first..THEY ARE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION...God raised them because of what? Because they were the dead IN CHRIST...BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION...

They are blessed and holy...ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE they are blessed and holy...if they are holy then they are holy...they don't need to be re-worked to make them holy...if they weren't holy they wouldn't have rose first...if they weren't just they wouldn't have been in the resurrection of the just...

17 minutes ago, Sister said:

All these are not the 'wicked' but gave up something that is precious to the Lord

If they don't meet the qualifications of being a sheep then they are goats...the servant that hid his talent was called 'thou wicked and slothful servant..' he did not get rehabilitated...he was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. What does that say? That says the person who did nothing with what God had given him was a wicked and slothful servant...We could say he was not wicked but that was how God judged him. 

it says those that fear his name will be resurrected at the 7th trumpet...it also includes those that fear his name, both small and great...The person that got 5 talents was rewarded by the Lord just as sure as the one who received 2 talents...The one that received 2 talents did not go into rehab...he inherited the kingdom prepared for him from the foundation of the world...Just like those who worked in the vineyard...some worked all day, some only part of the day...But God promised them all the same penny for the day...God did no evil..he said 

'Friend, I do thee no wrong; didst not thou agree with me for a penny?' 

25 minutes ago, Sister said:

passing a test, whatever test they were put through to wash their robes white, and suffered for Christ's name, for righteousness sake, which got them through and received 'mercy'.

That is the definition of a saint...they endure hardness...they suffer for righteousness sake...they endure temptations...they run the race...they keep the faith...that is why they are in the resurrection of the just...they don't get that way AFTER they are resurrected...they are resurrected BECAUSE they were that way BEFORE the resurrection happened. 

27 minutes ago, Sister said:

1 Peter 3:17   For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Of course this scripture is true..this does not prove rehab...this proves that if you suffer with Christ you will REIGN with him...not go into rehab.

29 minutes ago, Sister said:

1 Peter 2:7   Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Of course these scriptures pertain to the saints who believe...Jesus is precious to them...if they rejected the chief corner stone they would not be counted worthy to obtain that world and would not be in the resurrection of the unjust.

30 minutes ago, Sister said:

1 Peter 2:8   And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

of course the scriptures are true...these have nothing to do with people going into rehab after the resurrection..if they stumble at the word being disobedient, then they will not be in the resurrection of the just.

31 minutes ago, Sister said:

They now obtain 'mercy'.  Is mercy deserved, or is it a gift?

Look at all the scriptures about what we are to do after we are saved...What did Paul say? He said:

'I KEEP UNDER MY BODY AND BRING IT INTO SUBJECTION...' Paul said if HE doesn't do this then he would be a castaway...

There are hundred of commandments given to us...

1) Fight the good fight of faith..

2) Resist the devil and he will flee from you..

3) Pray without ceasing...

4) Casting down imaginations and bringing every thought into captivity...

5) Put on the whole armour of God...

6) Give no place to the devil..

7) Study to show yourself approved unto God..

So the key phrase is 'For it is God that works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure..' 

Yes it is God who works in us to will and to do his good pleasure...but we have to yield our bodies unto him as instruments of righteousness. Just as sure as one can yield to God, one can also depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils...This is where we battle error and realize that even believers can err from the truth...if it were not so, he would of never said 'if any of YOU do err from the truth...' If it were not so he would not have said 'in the last days some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils...' What did it say? Some shall DEPART from the faith...they can't depart from something they never had...a person can not be cut off from the vine if they were never in the vine...what does it say?

'Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit he takes away...' Look at what that said...the branch was IN CHRIST yet he was not bearing fruit. If it couldn't happen he wouldn't of said that...and what happens if that is the case? 

He said if a man abides not in me he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned...

These are commands of Jesus...Abide in him...if we abide in him and he abides in us we will bring forth fruit...He is the source of our fruit, but like it states there is the possibility a person does not bring forth fruit...so we have a part to play.

44 minutes ago, Sister said:

To stumble at the Word doesn't make you a wicked person. 

Here would be an example of someone stumbling at the word, making him a wicked person. 1 Cor. 5:11

"But now have I written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what Have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judges..Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

They call themselves a brother yet they continue to do the things God has forbidden us from doing. God calls that person a wicked person.

Even the one who had his father's wife was to be restored unto fellowship...and this was not that he didn't stumble...the issue was he repented of what he had done...this is the complete difference...We have to accept the one who repents lest Satan get an advantage of us, and we also have to reject those who continue to be an offense. 

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Many would of traveled that hard road to the best of their ability, but stumbled at the word - receiving error - because of the oppressor, placing the wrong type of shepherds before them. 

This goes back to the issue of knowing to do good and doing it not it is sin...I lived many years in error...not because I was not willing to hear it...I just had never heard it and didn't even know I was wrong. If I had of died sometime during that time, God is not going to hold me accountable for things I did not know...

Just like Apollos who only knew the baptism of John...that is all he knew...he was fervently preaching it with all he had...When Priscilla and Aquila came along they showed him the way of God more perfectly and what did he do? He embraced it and went on with God...This is the scripture we have to look at:

If you CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Many yearn for truth, but instead are taught lies. 

This is the sign of being a sheep...they are seeking, knocking and asking...if they are in the process of seeking, knocking, and asking then they are doing God's will and he will answer them...as it says 'Knock and shall be opened to you...seek and you will find..

1 hour ago, Sister said:

God knows all this.  And this is a type of disobedience on their behalf, not searching the truth for themselves, not going through the Word of God directly, but going through man, and trusting man to give truth.

This is where they can read the scripture and if they are sheep they will hear his voice...what was the admonition John wrote to the Laodicean church...'I know your works...that you are neither cold or hot...I were that you were cold or hot...because you are lukewarm I will spue you out of my mouth...

But he didn't just leave them there with no hope...remember he is writing TO THE BELIEVERS in Laodicea..He gave them counsel how to get out of that condition...he counselled them to buy of him gold tried in the fire...ect...ect...ect...then he gave them a promise...To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am sat down with my Father in his throne.

And what does he say to these believers? He that has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches... Some may have heeded the warning others may not have...but if they stayed lukewarm we know the result that God said he would spue them out of his mouth...so its either be spewed out of his mouth or heed the admonition and reign with Christ in his throne. 

It's up to the ministry to FEED THE FLOCK OF GOD these things...if people are taught these things then they can correct themselves..how shall they hear without a preacher? But like you said teachers do not teach sound doctrine and what does it say the people do? After their own lusts they heap to themselves these teachers having itching ears and these teachers that they have heaped to themselves turn away their ears from the truth and turn them unto fables.

So what do we do? We all attend to the ministries that God has given to each one...He that prophecies, let him prophesy according to the proportion of faith...he that ministers, attend to his ministry...he that teaches on teaching...he that exhorts on exhortation...ect...ect...ect..

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Allowing themselves to be deceived in doctrine. 

What did Paul tell Timothy? 

1) Take heed unto yourself...

2) And unto the doctrine...

3) Continue in them..

And what are the promises to those who do this? He said for in doing so you will both save yourself and them that hear you...HUGE

2 hours ago, Sister said:

So many will be sifted, and brought to righteousness and put through a a great test to make their robes white -

And what did God say to the believers? Remember this is God speaking to US...Think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened to you, but rejoice inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings...that WHAT?

That when his glory shall be revealed (SECOND COMING) ye may be glad with exceeding joy...

This is not being rehabilitated later so you can be exceeding glad...these are trials we go through NOW so we can be exceeding glad WHEN HE COMES.

2 hours ago, Sister said:

The Lord will seek out his sheep and bring them back before they die, and he knows his sheep, all the different vessels - many are rejected also.

 Jeremiah 50:6   My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

The leaders are generally harder to correct than those that follow them...if some of the leaders just took a scriptural position on things many of the sheep would follow without blinking...but on the same token, they will also follow their errors without blinking. 

The command Jesus gave to his disciples about the end time was 'take heed that no man deceive you...' It is placed in our lap to not be deceived. 

I was taught at the beginning that we were not to question leadership because that was a sign of backsliding...but then I read those of Thessalonica were more noble because they searched the scriptures daily whether what they were being told was true.

Quote

The Lord will seek out his sheep and bring them back before they die,

We can see how serious these issues are, as Paul mentioned about Hymenaeus and Alexander...he said concerning faith they have made shipwreck...Hymenaeus and Philetus had taught the resurrection had already past and they overthrew the faith of some..Paul said he delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan that they would learn not to blaspheme...Maybe by the time the devil gets through with some of these people they will realize their own errors. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Those that are coming with Christ are FAITHFUL...they were already faithful before they got to the earth with Christ...God is not going to take them and train them to be faithful because they weren't faithful before...NO. THEY WERE ALREADY FAITHFUL or they wouldn't be coming with Christ.

No, many did something that proved them faithful in the end.  One act Gary.  One great sacrifice.  One big test where they had to choose what side they were going to be on.

Here is the scripture and you tell me if it's true or not:

Quote

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Does this scripture say they were faithful or not? 

[Uriah]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

NOW in verse 4 he says 'But thou O Daniel..' What does that mean?

Start in Dan 11:45

Who is "he" in the sentence? Ordinary reading leads us to find out who is being referred to by the sentences leading up to it. After going pas a number of "he"'s  we get to "the king". Who is that? One who accomplishes the indignation. This is the abomination of sacrificing a pig and stopping the daily sacrifice. In 11:45 he dies. 

12:1 is a single Hebrew word-"time". (on the word by word textual list the first three words are -"time that time"" The add on of "And at that" is only one of the ways it is interpreted. The point is that there is a great difference between the death of "the king" and the time when there is a resurrection at the time that there is trouble like  never since there was a nation.

So the angel speaks of that time, seemingly to assure Daniel that those evil kings and people will be punished even after death. Then The scene and discourse returns to Daniel's present time where he sees the angel standing over the water. And he is told that a number of days will pass after those indignations that were imposed...which were done by "the king."

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

The point is that there is a great difference between the death of "the king" and the time when there is a resurrection at the time that there is trouble like  never since there was a nation.

The text itself links the time frame of him who came to his end in 11:45 with the events following in 12:1-3.

The man in 11:45 comes to his end and at that time Michael stands up...The man comes to his end and at that time Israel is delivered...The man comes to his end and at that time the resurrection of the just and unjust occurs...

Reverting back to Hebrew does nothing to change it..the Hebrew says and means what it says in English.

Saying the phrase 'But thou O Daniel' means the time frame changes is a private interpretation which has no validity. 

Quote

The point is that there is a great difference between the death of "the king" and the time when there is a resurrection at the time that there is trouble like  never since there was a nation.

The above quote is in exact opposition to what the text says...the text links the time of the man who comes to his end with the following events in 12:1-3 

The point is there is no validity in putting 12:1-3 into another time frame...if there is no validity in putting it into another time frame then the events that are to be fulfilled at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the man in 12:7 places the events in the future at the time of antichrist when the resurrection will occur.

Saying the time frame changes from 11:45 to 12:1-3 does not mean the time frame changes.

The point is if there is no validity in placing the events of 12:1-3 into a different time frame then it automatically means that Antiochus is not the man in 11:45, for those events did not take place when he came to his end.

Saying the word 'that' means it changes the time frame is not valid if the word 'that' does not exist...it is an addition to the text. 

'Time that time' is also not valid...there is no additional word 'time' in the Hebrew nor is it translated that way in English. 

The two things being proposed are only held up by adding words into the Hebrew that do not exist and by imposing a private interpretation on the phrase 'But thou O Daniel.'

These are not valid reasons and the time frame remains as it is plainly stated. Antiochus is not the man.

Blessings to you- Gary

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The man in 11:45 comes to his end and at that time Michael stands up...The man comes to his end and at that time Israel is delivered...The man comes to his end and at that time the resurrection of the just and unjust occurs...

This usually is used to imply that "he", "the king" in question is the antichrist, but that man is NEVER called a king.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Reverting back to Hebrew does nothing to change it..the Hebrew says and means what it says in English.

Speaking of Hebrew, I'll bet you never looked at the number of ways that word is translated (into English) - "ʿēṯ" -H6256 in its many expressions. Why so many differences?

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Saying the phrase 'But thou O Daniel' means the time frame changes is a private interpretation which has no validity.

Sure it does. One sentence is about a king in the future while the other is instructions to Daniel in his time.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The above quote is in exact opposition to what the text says...the text links the time of the man who comes to his end with the following events in 12:1-3 

Well, that is where we disagree. The "king" (antiChrist???) is shown as living in his tents in Israel, nations that no longer exist escape him (Edom, Moab, Ammon). Another king comes after him with chariots, horsemen and many ships, Egypt does not escape, etc.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Saying the word 'that' means it changes the time frame is not valid if the word 'that' does not exist...it is an addition to the text. 

'Time that time' is also not valid...there is no additional word 'time' in the Hebrew nor is it translated that way in English. 

I recommend looking up what I stated above.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

These are not valid reasons and the time frame remains as it is plainly stated. Antiochus is not the man

I think you are still ignoring what I said about the scripture showing he defiled the temple, put the abomination of desolation/idol in it, stopped the sacrifices in his campaign of "indignation". 

11:30-indignation against covenant...

11:31- abomination that maketh desolate, stops sacrifice...

11:36- till the indignation be accomplished 

12:11- And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/20/2022 at 8:10 PM, Uriah said:

The "king" (antiChrist???)

This "King of the North" will be the Son of Perdition. Who will be an antichrist, but not the only one.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1150-the-antichrist-myth/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1097-the-son-of-perdition-is-a-patsy/

 

[iamlamad]

On 5/11/2022 at 11:19 PM, transmogrified said:

This is a subject that is plain to see in scripture as long as the scriptures showing this to be true are acknowledged. The first one to look at is Daniel 12 where it says '...And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.' 

Many have inserted a 1000 year gap between these two resurrections because Rev. 20:5 seemed to imply the wicked dead would not live again until the 1000 years was finished.

What has not been commonly addressed is the time frame in which the angel told Daniel this resurrection of both the good and the bad would take place.

Following the time frame in Daniel it is plain to see what happens when the man of sin comes to his end and none will help. Daniel 11: 45

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

When does he come to his end? Of course this happens at the Second Coming...this is what Paul said in 2 Thess. 2 that the Lord would consume him with the spirit of his mouth and would destroy him with the brightness of his coming.

So connecting these two dots we can see that when the man of sin comes to his end is at Second Coming. I am saying this to establish the time frame for the following events to occur. It specifically says 'At that time,' (the second coming) these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up...

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered...

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life and some to shame....

So when it says 'at that time' these events will take place, Daniel asked the angel in Daniel 12:6 this question:

"How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" So it is apparent the wonders he was asking about were all the wonders that were just shown to him...He did not ask 'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders except for the resurrection of the wicked?' No. He asked 'How long shall it be to the end of THESE wonders.

The angel then answered him saying 'It shall be for a time, times and a half: and when he (anti-christ) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED."

So the angel did not say 'All these things shall be finished at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast except for the resurrection of the wicked...No. He said at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast ALL these things will be finished which of course would include the resurrection of the wicked also. 

 

Blessings to you all-

 

 

I believe this is mostly nonsense. 

Michael "stands up" (Some imagine "stands aside" as if doing nothing" at the sounding of the 7th trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week. AFter all, that is when he will go to war with Satan.

According to Jesus and John in Revelation, the 7 years (Daniel's 70th week" will occur BEFORE Christ returns to Armageddon. ("after the tribulation of those days...")

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I believe this is mostly nonsense. 

Hi Iamlamad- 

  Could you please go into a bit more detail? I don't know what part you think is nonsense and what part is not.

As far as the 7th trumpet it sounds at the end of the tribulation as shown in the vision of Daniel when the stone smote the image on the feet and the kingdoms of this world became as the chaff of the summer threshing floor...This does not take place in the middle of the 7 year period...it takes place when Christ comes...Christ does not come at the middle of the 7 year period..he comes on the last day, at the last trumpet, immediately after the tribulation.

Blessings to you- Gary

Edited June 24, 2022 by transmogrified