Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

On 2/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Uriah said:

You weren't looking for a number.

True, I'm looking for 'Whom and When?' The number is established by either 'a multitude too large to count' or 'until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.'

Asking certain questions is a bit of a habit for me. Who? What? Where? When? Why? and How Many? is a pattern. I didn't mean to distract. 

[Diaste]

On 2/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Uriah said:

You mean like this?

John 5:28- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I mean that this is an event after the Return. When that event is scheduled precisely is unknown. It's some hour, an hour that's coming. I don't see exactly where 'all in the graves shall hear His voice' is in time in relation to other events. It's quite certain it's at a time after the Return. Is it immediately? I don't know. 

It's clear this will happen when He returns for at least some as the harpazo resurrects some from the grave. It would also happen after the 1000 year reign as the dead are resurrected at that time. The dead hear His voice and are resurrected twice 1000 years apart. 

I also wonder if the dead in the graves heard His voice when the grave were opened after Jesus resurrection. I'm sure they did. But not all were resurrected here, just some chosen believers. 

So when would this 'all in the graves hear His voice' occur? It appears it happens in installments as the Lord sees fit. 

Jesus raised three people when they heard His voice but not all were raised from the dead at that time. 

There is nothing preventing a contingent from being raised at a specific time for a specific purpose and then the rest later. In this way the prophecy is still fulfilled that 'all in the graves hear His voice' just not 'all at the same time'. 

People add the 'all at the same time' idea. I don't see it. 

On 2/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Uriah said:

What is revealed is that it happens at the 7th trumpet. This time stamp is overarching pertaining these things.

Rev 10:7- But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Many see 'finished' here as 'ended'. It's not. The idea is:

"Cognate: 5055 teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e

. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process –

with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. 

It's not the end of it all, it's the end of this phase and moving on. More precisely it's the 'revelation of God continues'. If we look at Rev 11:15-19 there are many events and conditions that will exist when the 7th trump sounds, each one a revealed process of the Lord Most High. 

In Rev 10:7 then the revelation can't be ended, it's just moving to the next phase. 

Unless you are of the mind all of Rev 11:15-19 happens all at the same moment when the trump sounds then what occurs does so over a stretch of time, in order, as scheduled. 

On 2/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Uriah said:

Right, we must ALL that is written on the subject. For example...

Mat 25:31, 32- 

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 

And before him shall be gathered all nations...

2 Tim 4:1- I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Right. But it can't be ignored there are two resurrections 1000 years apart, the latter being one where the resurrected dead are judged per Rev 20. 

Is 2 Timothy 4 immediately upon Jesus arrival? Some weeks or months later? I say the ones we see resurrected in Rev 7 that came out from within GT standing about the throne in vast uncountable numbers are not judged. 

The ones in Rev 20 who died for Jesus and refused the mark and the beast and his image are not judged either. They rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years and it's said the 2nd death has no power over them.

That leaves only the 2nd resurrection for when 'all nations are gathered before Him' and the 'judging of the living and the dead'.

If you have evidence the above two references must occur immediately upon Jesus arrival I would like to see it. 

I'm convinced His appearance and His kingdom are a presence and not a one off. The dictionary says 'appearing' is revelation of presence and impact, not a one time event:

2015 epipháneia (from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting," which intensifies 5316 /phaínō, "show forth, appear") – properly, a fitting manifestation (literally, "an epiphany").

[2015 (epipháneia) is the root of the English term, "epiphany."]

2015 (epipháneia) literally suggests an appearing that builds on (Gk epi) on the characteristics of a particular situation. Accordingly, 2015 /epipháneia ("conspicuous appearing") emphasizes the fitting impact Christ's visible appearance will have on the entire world – i.e. all who see it (saved and unsaved). In the NT, 2015 (epipháneia) occurs six times – always used of Christ's coming (once of His first coming, 2 Tim 1:10).

 

 

 

 

[Keras]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is 2 Timothy 4 immediately upon Jesus arrival? Some weeks or months later? I say the ones we see resurrected in Rev 7 that came out from within GT standing about the throne in vast uncountable numbers are not judged. 

The ones in Rev 20 who died for Jesus and refused the mark and the beast and his image are not judged either. They rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years and it's said the 2nd death has no power over them.

That leaves only the 2nd resurrection for when 'all nations are gathered before Him' and the 'judging of the living and the dead'.

If you have evidence the above two references must occur immediately upon Jesus arrival I would like to see it. 

The Judgement at Jesus' Return is of the nations. Matthew 24:31-33  Individual people must wait until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-17

As 2 Timothy 4:1 says Jesus is the Judge and He does that by putting the names of those worthy into the Lambs Book of Life. Certainly, those who get killed for their faith are Written in it.   But it will be only those martyred during the 42 month rule of Satan, who Jesus will bring back to mortal life at His Return. 

THEN, after the Millennium, everyone who has ever lived, will stand before God and the Lambs Book of Life will be opened. Result: Revelation 20:12-15

Note: in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, a prophecy about that Judgment, there will be people alive at that time, whose names are in the Book, perhaps some will be those martyrs, who will then be translated directly into immortality and will go into Eternity without dying again. But if they did die again, their eventual immortality is assured. 

The fact is; that it is only at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium, when immortality is received by anyone. This destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory.   We humans never go to heaven, after the Judgment, God and therefore heaven; come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Keras

[Uriah]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think anyone is denying John or the 12 their roles nor the prophecy Jesus spoke over them personally. If I remember correctly David was promised a seat over all Israel in the kingdom. I could be wrong. 

Not wrong. The difference is king vs judges.

 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course no other prophecy stands in the way of David and the 12 ruling over Israel in the kingdom.

But your insistence mandates one of the apostles, John, out of the prophecy.

 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 20:4-6 does stand in the way of all believers

That's what I mean.

 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Asking certain questions is a bit of a habit for me.

My question is; why would scriptures oppose other scriptures instead of building themselves together?

 

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

I mean that this is an event after the Return.

You mean AT the return?  There are reliable truths evident in the other

 

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's clear this will happen when He returns for at least some as the harpazo resurrects some from the grave. It would also happen after the 1000 year reign as the dead are resurrected at that time. The dead hear His voice and are resurrected twice 1000 years apart. 

The "rest of the dead", live after the 1k yrs. which I take to be any who died in that time period and immediately at His coming to slay the enemy armies.

 

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

The ones in Rev 20 who died for Jesus and refused the mark and the beast and his image are not judged either. They rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years and it's said the 2nd death has no power over them.

That leaves only the 2nd resurrection for when 'all nations are gathered before Him' and the 'judging of the living and the dead'.

If you have evidence the above two references must occur immediately upon Jesus arrival I would like to see it.

Mat 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Well there's one. It can be seen in Mat 24 as well. 

Mat 24:30- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As side note; do you think His elect are only those alive?

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;     and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1Th 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These things cannot happen without a resurrection. The people listed above are all inclusive. No restriction is put into this proclamation. It is for, the dead.

Jhn 5:28- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29- And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jhn 6:40- And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

Jhn 12:48- He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

What last day?

Jde 1:6- And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own  habitation, own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness  unto the judgment of the great day.

Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Zep 1:14- The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

 Zep 1:15-  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

 Mar 10:30- But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and  brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life

There is a world to come. It has to have a first day. It starts here:

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,  saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of  his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever 

Mat 25:34- Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

There are no exclusions, all are treated the same at the same time.

BTW, I believe "coming" and "appearing" are used interchangeably 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Uriah
Further information

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

The ones in Rev 20 who died for Jesus and refused the mark and the beast and his image are not judged either. They rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years and it's said the 2nd death has no power over them.

If the living were following Him and going to heaven, 

instead of 'magically' turning into the dead at some point,

then we could be sure that ALL who come to believe while they yet live don't have to worry about the 2nd death because the 2nd death only happens to those who GO TO HELL,

BUT since 'the churches' still BELIEVE the NEVER DIE actually become the dead and are raised up from hell when Christ returns 

that doesn't work as a simple 'separating' of the wheat and the tares.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


And that's too bad because it would explain when who is resurrected and when...Oh Well
 

Edited February 4, 2023 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:17 PM, truth7t7 said:

Yes you deny that when Jesus Christ returns, death is swallowed up in victory as seen below (Then Cometh The End) you falsely teach and believe mortal life continues, after the resurrection seen "False"

Fact Is, when Jesus Christ returns the resurrection takes place, at this time corruption puts on incorruption, the last enemy death is destroyed (Then Cometh The End)

You deny the truth of scripture before your eyes "Why"?

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 & 52-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

How do you reckon this?

1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

11That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

13As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

14And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

15For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isa66

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Keras said:

The Judgement at Jesus' Return is of the nations. Matthew 24:31-33  Individual people must wait until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-17

I think I mostly agree here.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

As 2 Timothy 4:1 says Jesus is the Judge and He does that by putting the names of those worthy into the Lambs Book of Life. Certainly, those who get killed for their faith are Written in it.   But it will be only those martyred during the 42 month rule of Satan, who Jesus will bring back to mortal life at His Return. 

I think that puts a heavy burden on a single verse but sure, it's possible. Otherwise I have to agree since that is what's written.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

THEN, after the Millennium, everyone who has ever lived, will stand before God and the Lambs Book of Life will be opened. Result: Revelation 20:12-15

I agree with possible exceptions. Notably probable exceptions.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Note: in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, a prophecy about that Judgment, there will be people alive at that time, whose names are in the Book, perhaps some will be those martyrs, who will then be translated directly into immortality and will go into Eternity without dying again. But if they did die again, their eventual immortality is assured. 

No. This is prophecy at the last trump. It's a classic gathering transformation verse at the return of Jesus at the last trump. This isn't the GWT.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

The fact is; that it is only at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium, when immortality is received by anyone. This destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory.   We humans never go to heaven, after the Judgment, God and therefore heaven; come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

You could be correct. 

I mean, I don't know where that throne is and what the four living creatures are or whom the elders might be in Rev 7, but where ever the throne is, and whatever and whomever they are, it's where the ones who came out from GT are gathered about that throne with the elders the four living creatures and the Lamb. 

I mean where could all this be?

At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it. 3The One seated there looked like jasper and carnelian, and a rainbow that gleamed like an emerald encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and on these thrones sat twenty-four elders dressed in white, with golden crowns on their heads.

Worship of the Creator

5From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder. Before the throne burned seven torches of fire. These are the seven Spiritsa of God. 6And before the throne was something like a sea of glass, as clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, covered with eyes in front and back.

Striking.

 6And before the throne was something like a sea of glass, as clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, covered with eyes in front and back.

Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed.

2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. 

Unusually similar.

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If the living were following Him and going to heaven, 

instead of 'magically' turning into the dead at some point,

then we could be sure that ALL who come to believe while they yet live don't have to worry about the 2nd death because the 2nd death only happens to those who GO TO HELL,

BUT since 'the churches' still BELIEVE the NEVER DIE actually become the dead and are raised up from hell when Christ returns 

that doesn't work as a simple 'separating' of the wheat and the tares.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


And that's too bad because it would explain when who is resurrected and when...Oh Well
 

I do think you should start a thread with the title "Where do we go when we die?" or, "Do dead believers go to Heaven immediately?" or something similar.

 I'd be interested as I have a few questions on that topic. 

There's probably a thread already somewhere.

It's beyond the scope here, imo. 

[Selah7]

10 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I do think you should start a thread with the title "Where do we go when we die?" or, "Do dead believers go to Heaven immediately?" or something similar.

 I'd be interested as I have a few questions on that topic. 

There's probably a thread already somewhere.

It's beyond the scope here, imo. 

At death of the flesh, everyone goes to heaven.

Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 (KJV)

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

On 2/3/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

Of course no other prophecy stands in the way of David and the 12 ruling over Israel in the kingdom.

But your insistence mandates one of the apostles, John, out of the prophecy.

 

No. I insist on understanding and that understanding is far from complete. I'm working on it and it's getting better.

Anyway, I don't think I ever said John was out of the prophecy. It would be implied at best I suppose; but the implication doesn't remove John's sure participation in the promise Jesus gave him about the 12 ruling over Israel. Just because a specific group is taken in the protos, primary, important resurrection, doesn't negate any other resurrection for God's purposes or to fulfill His promises.

Keep in mind the 'first' resurrection isn't the first. Several people were resurrected in the NT, 3 by Jesus. Jesus is resurrected and with Him many who appeared to witnesses in the 1st century. The only way the Rev 20:5 is the first in order is it's before the resurrection of the 2nd death 1000 years later. 

It's certainly not the 1st resurrection in the NT and not even close to the first resurrection of all time. 

This is why it's proper to understand the '1st' resurrection is a primary one and not the first across the finish line.