Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Selah7 said:

and so he was.  Do you know what paradise is?

…

addendum:  You might want to check out Luke 16:19-26.

Shalom, Selah7.

If you're seriously asking, I can tell you what παράδεισος "paradeisos" means and where it is. This information is VERY clear from the Scriptures!

3857 paradeisos παράδεισος, ου, ὁ (par-ad-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a PARK, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
-- paradise.

In the New Testament, this word is found in three places: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7.

Notice, too, that this word is connected to the Hebrew word "pardeec":

6508 pardeec (pardec) פַרְדֵּס (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a PARK:
-- forest, orchard.

And, again, in the Old Testament, this word is found in three places: Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; and Song of Songs 4:13.

Nehemiah 2:8 (KJV)

8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

Ecclesiastes 2:5 (KJV)

5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:

Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon) 4:13 (KJV)

13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,

Notice from each of these verses, that the word means a "park of TREES!" an "ORCHARD!" Now, the New Testament:

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying,

"If thou be Christ, save thyself and us!"

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying,

"Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss!"

42 And he said unto Jesus,

"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

43 And Jesus said unto him,

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Now for the FUN PART!

Let's start with Revelation. Do you know where else the "tree of life" is mentioned? How about Revelation 22:1-5?! These are the last five verses about the New Jerusalem!

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

So, Revelation 2:7 is also talking about the New Jerusalem!

Next: What wss Paul talking about when he said, "third heaven?"

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Again we disagree. It is at the 7th (last) trump when Paul says that this change will take place.  This is the very last trump and it is the precise moment when Jesus Christ will return to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom.  All will be changed.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

Shalom, Selah7.

I really don't have a problem with the change happening at the 7th Trumpet. It's just for His own people, though. The "all" there applies to ALL of those who belong to the Messiah, not everybody! These are the dead IN CHRIST, and those who are just changed because they don't need to be resurrected are also IN CHRIST! The wicked don't have a part in this!

And, I'm totally on board when it comes to the Millennium being the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom. It's a technicality, but His Kingdom will last forever, not just a thousand years. Still this does happen at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, not at the end.

The dead outside of Christ are NOT raised until the END of the Millennium for the Great White Throne Judgment. They are raised to life, to receive the things they've done in their bodies, and then they die again! It's the SECOND death! This time, however, they are consigned to the Lake of Burning Sulfur!

You say we disagree. We might be closer than you think!

[Diaste]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

You admit that you have no direct statement regarding "after the thousand yrs" and it still seems like a reliance on non exitance of of a statement. That would make it hard to do much bible learning at all. Trinity etc.

You do know there's a lot of debate about when the last day is and even what last day means, yes? For me it's the last day of the 1000 year reign.

It seem the logical choice, unstrained and quite common knowledge:

We count years by the month, week and day. If there's a 1000 year time span then I make the wild assumption there are months, weeks and days in that 1000 years. Then when the 1000 years are up, it's the last day. In this case it's the last day of all days. Compared to the end of the 1900s and the last day of that millennium when we woke up to another day.

There is nothing I see in scripture that specifies the last day is the last day of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. No one sees such a statement cause there isn't one. There are enough indirect statements to which can be applied deduction and logic to find a proper unforced conclusion. IMO.

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

But I have provided plenty of scriptural evidence. (all rejected)

I think it's unfair to say I'm rejecting the evidence. I'm not. Evidence is the only path to the truth. I reject conclusions. In this case the conclusion the last day is the day when Jesus arrives does not appear to take into account all the evidence available about the last day. 

I feels like trying to fit on a too small shoe. It can be done, but it has to uncomfortably forced. imo.

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

Heb 2:5- For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come,  whereof we speak.

And there are other references of the "world to come" and I think it is fair to say it will be different from this one, as was pointed out by scripture. 

2Pe 3:6- Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This is why I insist that the change is shown to us in the scriptures as well.

Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every  mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Certainly. A great change is coming, and many great changes as well. I look forward to this and have for a long time. But to this point I don't see the fact of these changes equating to the end of the world nor the last day. I see the end of the world here and no other time; "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." But it's not even an end really, it's a remodel or an upgrade. Something like that. 

But I don't see this fact bearing on when the last day might be.

Can you point out the relevant statements above that pertain to the last day as the day Jesus arrives? 

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

And I think the apostles did know when the end of the world was.

Mat 13:39- The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the  world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:41- The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:49- So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

As so often happens a fact of an event is peppered with our perceptions. In the above I see the fact the end of the world will occur. I do not see any timing in relation to other profound events such as: Jesus arrival, the gathering, Armageddon, the 1000 years, etc. I just see details about what happens at the end, not WHEN the end is in relation to, or conjunction with, other important events. 

Just when do you suppose the above takes place in relation to these events and do you have evidence for the conclusion?

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

Mat 24:3- And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him  privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign  of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:2- Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33- So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near  even at the doors.

Indeed. I talk about this in other threads. I see this as a three part answer to three questions. The first part in Matt 24:4-28 answers 'When will these things be?'

The second is the sign of his coming, Matt 24:29-51.

The Olivet Discourse continues in Matt 25 and Jesus still hasn't got the end of the world thing yet. Finally He does in Matt 25:31.

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

Mat 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels  with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

'Then He shall sit on His throne of Glory'. In my mind that's at least 1000 years long. I don't have a good handle on just when the nations are all gathered before Him in relation to the duration of the 1000 years. 

I know there's a bunch of the dead resurrected after the 1000 years; "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete" 'The rest of the dead' being those not taken in the first resurrection and made up of 'all nations'. 

So the sheep and goats judgement fits with this and it's after the 1000 years when if, and only IF, "And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Which also fits with the sheep and goats judgment as both are deeds based judgements. 

On 2/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, Uriah said:

I believe that there is a DAY that has to be the last day of this world. It is not un discernable and can be found by comparing the pertinent scriptures.

It settles it for me. 

I agree 100%. 

It's not settled as to when though. 

So after Jesus arrives wrath falls and continues for a time. Is Jesus prosecuting wrath on the earth at the same time as He sits on a throne judging what must be millions? If the GWT judgment occurs when Jesus arrives. what of any of the dead that died during the 1000 years? Another resurrection? Another GWT judgement?

If the 'rest of the dead' do not come back to life until after the 1000 years, then who is Jesus talking to in Matt 25:31-46? It's not Christians. They have all been resurrected in the 1st resurrection and 

they are before the throne of God

and serve Him day and night in His temple;

and the One seated on the throne

will spread His tabernacle over them.

16‘Never again will they hunger,

and never will they thirst;

nor will the sun beat down upon them,

nor any scorching heat.’a

17For the Lamb in the center of the throne

will be their shepherd.b

‘He will lead them to springs of living water,’c

and ‘God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’d”

And are not appearing at the GWT as they, "are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." No need to judge these as they have been through GT and washed their robes already. 

Then with all that, Matt 254:31-46 and GWT of Rev 20:11-15 are the same and happen after the 1000 years. That would make the last day of the millennial kingdom the 'last day' in question.

[Diaste]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:43 AM, Uriah said:

At is coming, there will be judgment. (see Rev 11:18). Also John 5:29-  they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Rev 11

18The nations were enraged,c

and Your wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the deadd

and to reward Your servants the prophets,

as well as the saints and those who fear Your name,

both small and great—

and to destroy those who destroy the earth.

You assume the word 'time' here means 'this moment'. It does not. The definition of 'time' here is:

"2540 kairós – time as opportunity. 2540 /kairós ("opportune time") is derived from kara ("head") referring to things "coming to a head" to take full-advantage of. 2540 (kairós) is "the suitable time, the right moment (e.g. Soph., El. 1292), a favorable moment" (DNTT, 3, 833)."

It's now the suitable opportunity but that does not equate to a court docket for that moment. It could, but it's not proven here. This time of judging also should align with the sheep and goats judgment of Matt 25:31-46 and the GWTJ of Rev 20:11-15.

If you are of the mind the above passage is 'this moment' in reference to the "The time has come to judge the dead" then all of Rev 11:18 is in the same time/space moment, yes? 

On 2/6/2023 at 7:43 AM, Uriah said:

The beast and false prophet have been in the lake of fore for over 1,000 yrs. by the time the devil is likewise punished.

Yes.

On 2/6/2023 at 7:43 AM, Uriah said:

This means there had a judgment 1,000 yrs. earlier.

No. I mean yes, sort of. Listen to what the scripture says. 
"Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army. 20But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse."

This is a battle array. Two sides massed and prepared to battle. The beast and the FP are captured here, they are POWs. They have been judged alright, a summary judgment. There is no appearance before the GWT. This imprisonment of the beast and the FP is during an act of war, not a tribunal; which is what the GWT is.

No facts are disputed here like at the GWT when the books are opened and the facts presented before the court. 

I don't see how the GWT judgment fits here since all that is described is a war and a capture of two prominent leaders who are imprisoned upon capture. 

This wartime action is not in any way equivalent to a court proceeding. You may feel comfortable adding a judgement here of either the saved or the unsaved, or sheep and goats, or the GWT, I am not. 

On 2/6/2023 at 7:43 AM, Uriah said:

That means there was a resurrection for the statements in Mat 25:41 and Rev 20:15 and it would have to be the first resurrection.

No. The second death has no power of the those in the 1st resurrection. Cleary death holds power over the ones in Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15. It's the 2nd resurrection in those passages. 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Selah7.

Okay, I left off with ...

A "paradise," "paradeisos" in Greek and "pardeec" in Hebrew, is a "PARK of trees," an "ORCHARD!"

Revelation 22:1-3 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

And, I explained that these are among the last verses about the New Jerusalem. So, picture this:

Within the New Jerusalem, there is a street made of pure gold. We would say "streets", but this is one CONTINUAL street without break.

Within the street, which one can picture like a major interstate highway in the road system of the United States, there is a median. Flowing down the middle of the median in the middle of the street, there is a pure river of the water of life. On either side of this river are trees growing along its banks. All of these trees are of this species, the Tree of Life. They bare twelve kinds of fruits and yield their fruits every month! Furthermore, their leaves have healing properties. One can probably use them as one would use a stalk of aloe or steep the leaves in a tea.

This IS a "PARK of TREES!" And, this "park of trees" is wherever this river and street go throughout the New Jerusalem! THIS is the "paradise" about which Yeeshuwa` was telling the church at Ephesus in Revelation 2:7!

 

Now, let's look at Paul's words:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

He was talking about "a man in Christ" he "knew over 14 years ago," at the time he wrote this letter to the church at Korinth, Greece. Now, many believe that he was talking about himself, but he's not very clear on that point. Suffice it to say that, about whomever he is talking, had a prophetic vision! In this vision, he says that he doesn't know if he was in the body, or out of the body. Simply put, if it was himself, he couldn't tell if he was actually there or if he just experienced what he was seeing ahd hearing AS IF he was actually there. However, he was "caught up to the third heaven" and was "caught up into paradise," and heard words he couldn't repeat.

Now, most have this fuzzy definition of the third heaven that is revealed in the old Scofield Reference Edition of the King James Version of the Bible, on page 1238, where 2 Corinthians 12:2 is found:

In the center margin of this Scofield Reference Edition, one will find the words,

"d First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God's abode."

Other references have repeated this idea, as well. The idea is simply that the "first heaven" is the atmosphere of this planet. The "second heaven" is space with the stars, planets, moons, asteroids, etc., and the "third heaven" is said to be beyond the universe in "God's abode." Thus, these three "heavens" are SPATIALLY oriented as 1--2-3.

HOWEVER, there is evidence that this whole concept of three heavens is WRONG!

The Greek words translated as "to the third heaven" are "ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ" transliterated as "heoos tritou ouranou." But, "ouranou" is the genitive or ablative case of "ouranos," and "ouranos" is defined in the Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance as ...

3772 ouranos οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

But, there are theological problems with this definition: The concept of "the abode of God" is an error. David said,

Psalm 139:1-12 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say,

"Surely the darkness shall cover me";

even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

In theology, this is one of the proof texts for God's attribute of OMNIPRESENCE! He is present ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE we could go! So, how could He have an "abode?"

At the dedication of the Temple, Shlomoh haMelekh ("Solomon the King" or "King Solomon") prayed to God, and said,

1 Kings 8:22-30 (KJV)

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said,

"LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. 

25 "Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, 'There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me'. 26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, 'My name shall be there': that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive. ..."

So, God is BIGGER than His Creation! He is EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE! And, "the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain" Him! SO, HOW CAN HE HAVE AN "ABODE?!" HE DOESN'T!

There'a a better explanation. Yeeshuwa`s answer to the Pharisees and Sadducees was translated into Greek and then into English like this:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

The simple understanding of the word "ouranos" is the "sky!" So, a "third heaven" or a "third SKY" would be an easier way to explain 2 Corinthians 12:2!

Luckily (or rather, providentially), we have Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-13!

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, Peter gave us this info:

The first heaven and the first earth were before the Flood.
Then, we have the Flood which destroyed the first heaven and the first earth.
Now, we have the second heaven and the second earth, destined to be destroyed by Fire.
Then, associated with "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," will be the Fire.
Finally, there will be a third heaven and a third earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

So, it's not the "third heaven" spatially; it's the "third sky" SEQUENTIALLY! He was snatched away to the future to see the New Sky and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem with the huge park system - the "paradise!"

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Can you point out the relevant statements above that pertain to the last day as the day Jesus arrives? 

Luke 13:39- The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Rev 14:14-16- And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and  in his  hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15- And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16- And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

Of course Jesus Himself cannot tell you the "day" but it IS discernable that it would have to be at the end of this world whenever that is.

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 12:32- And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

You previously said that your position is the last day of the 1,000 yrs. But that cannot be. You also posted a verse of scripture showing that the rest of the dead don't live again until "after the 1,000 yrs are completed." That day MUST be over with first! The next day? That would not be a "last day" After the fire comes down and devours those enemies after a little season? It is not defined. Is there definitive reference for that position?

 

Luke 19:12- He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15- And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom...

This is followed by an accounting of His servants. Then it ends by Jesus saying;

Luke19:27- But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over  them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So there rewards and punishments when He returns, no waiting centuries. Servants and enemies.

The 1000 yr. shoe won't fit this teaching.

 

Rev 6:16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Either people worldwide have been studying up on the bible or they are terrified to SEE His face and His throne when He appears at His second coming. I have a guess for what color His throne is. 

Rev 11:18- (NIV et al) The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead...

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Uriah
highlight

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, Revelation 2:7 is also talking about the New Jerusalem!

Lost me there.

How does that come about or how is it you conclude that verse is speaking about the New Jerusalem, yet none the others that precede it?  Is that somewhere brought together with the final one?  How or where does the context in the end verses transfer to the beginning one, I guess is my question to you.

or

Are you saying the Lord and 'the thief' went directly to the New Jerusalem, skipping everything in between? 

Just looking for verses were written that caused you to make that statement.  If there isn't something written 'in between' showing how that comes to be, then is it a conclusion based upon some sort of doctrine maybe written elsewhere, I am presently unaware of?  

 

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I really don't have a problem with the change happening at the 7th Trumpet. It's just for His own people, though. The "all" there applies to ALL of those who belong to the Messiah, not everybody! These are the dead IN CHRIST, and those who are just changed because they don't need to be resurrected are also IN CHRIST! The wicked don't have a part in this!

Taking CONCLUSIONS and 'putting them forth as facts', doesn't make them GODS TRUTH.  Until it is GODS TRUTH, it is just 'filthy rags'.  And what that statement is full of is filthy rags.  


These DEAD are CLEARLY not IN CHRIST.  

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 

(these dead are not raised up to incorruption making and/or keeping these dead 'alive' but still spiritually DEAD, at least until the GWTJ)



 

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

CORRUPTIBLE putting ON INCORRUPTION

is clearly not the same thing as 'mortal putting on immortality'

by way of neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

So all who will be around for the Lords Day have changed but NOT ALL will have received their immortality.  

And since ALL will have been changed, aka first death and rising up,
then only the 2nd death, in the lake of fire is left.  


WHEN and how EXACTLY, does someone who NEVER DIES become one of THE DEAD?
Where do I read of that?   



How is the death of the Never Die different from the alive and remaining being changed and raised up, aside from the actual 'breakage' of the earthen vessel?

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Lost me there.

How does that come about or how is it you conclude that verse is speaking about the New Jerusalem, yet none the others that precede it?  Is that somewhere brought together with the final one?  How or where does the context in the end verses transfer to the beginning one, I guess is my question to you.

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Look, it's simple. In every subletter to each angel (pastor) of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, there is a promise to the overcomer near the end of the subletter:

Revelation 2:1, 7 (KJV)

1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
...

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Revelation 2:8, 11 (KJV)

8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
...

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Revelation 2:12, 17 (KJV)

12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
...

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Revelation 2:18, 26-28 (KJV)

18 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
...

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 3:1, 5-6 (KJV)

1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
...

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 3:7, 12-13 (KJV)

7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
...

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 3:14, 21-22 (KJV)

14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
...

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

All of these promises have to do with the END, either in reigning with the Lord during the Millennium or living eternally on the New Earth, under the New Sky, and within the New Jerusalem. 

So, it should come as no surprise to find that 2:7 is talking about the Tree of Life within the New Jerusalem.

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

or

Are you saying the Lord and 'the thief' went directly to the New Jerusalem, skipping everything in between? 

Well, I haven't talked about that verse, yet. These others LEAD UP TO THAT VERSE. That's why I started with Revelation 2:7 and 2 Corinthians 12:2 first. Don't jump the gun. I'm getting to it.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Just looking for verses were written that caused you to make that statement.  If there isn't something written 'in between' showing how that comes to be, then is it a conclusion based upon some sort of doctrine maybe written elsewhere, I am presently unaware of?  

No, ma'am. It's there in the Scriptures. One just has to see the pattern.

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

All of these promises have to do with the END, either in reigning with the Lord during the Millennium or living eternally on the New Earth, under the New Sky, and within the New Jerusalem. 

Then why didn't you say that?  WHY make the statement it is of the 'NEW', completely leaving out any reference to the Millennium context?  WASN'T the whole point of addressing it that way in the first place?   If that wasn't the intention, I am just letting you know, it came across that way.