Who is Resurrected, and When?

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

You must believe in a pretrib rapture. 

Obviously you haven't read my posts, and are again making a presumption without the evidence to back it up.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

2 hours ago,  WilliamL said: 

What does that passage have to do with the pretrib rapture doctrine??

1 Corinthians 11.26 definitely has the church in view, 'till He come', speaking of the institution of the Lord's Supper.

This may be a good time to think about what the Bible means when it speaks of "the coming of the Lord".

The OT prophesied about two visits to earth;  the First Advent was as a baby, to grow up as the Suffering Servant and Savior.  The Second Advent will be a the King of kings, and Lord of lords, at the end of the Great Tribulation.

That said, every reference to the "Lord's coming" in the NT speaks of the Second Advent.  If there were a "secret coming" that was not prophesied in the OT, then what every scholar and Bible teacher has called "the Second Advent" should really be the Third Advent.  

So, there are only TWO Advents of Jesus Christ.  The resurrection of all believers will be at that Advent.  1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4-6.

[Keras]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So, there are only TWO Advents of Jesus Christ.  The resurrection of all believers will be at that Advent.  1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4-6.

Many Prophesies say the Lord is 'coming', but they refer to His terrible Day of fiery wrath; to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.  He is not seen on that Day; Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11    Which will happen several years before the glorious Return. 

Re resurrection of all believers: this does not happen until the Great White Throne Judgment - after the Millenium. Immortality is only given to anyone when Eternity comes. Revelation 21-22

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

  FreeGrace said: 

So, there are only TWO Advents of Jesus Christ.  The resurrection of all believers will be at that Advent.  1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4-6.

Many Prophesies say the Lord is 'coming', but they refer to His terrible Day of fiery wrath; to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.  He is not seen on that Day; Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11    Which will happen several years before the glorious Return. 

Re resurrection of all believers: this does not happen until the Great White Throne Judgment - after the Millenium. Immortality is only given to anyone when Eternity comes. Revelation 21-22

I disagree on both counts.  The Bible clearly states that there will be A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved.  Dan 12:2, john 5:29 and Acts 24:15.

Rev 20:4-6 indicates that the 2 resurrections will be 1,000 years apart.  Unless on is an amillennialist and dismisses Rev 20 as figurative rather than literal.

I don't make that mistake.

And the OT prophesies about just TWO "comings" of the Messiah.  The second one is yet to occur.  And Rev 19-20 shows when that will be; after the GT.

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That said, every reference to the "Lord's coming" in the NT speaks of the Second Advent.  If there were a "secret coming" that was not prophesied in the OT, then what every scholar and Bible teacher has called "the Second Advent" should really be the Third Advent.  

The second advent will be a continuing advent, just as were the advents of the Presence/Parousia of God at the two Passovers of Egypt & Judea. He comes and stays around, although not always visibly. Judgments of God take time, after all ...

[Keras]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 20:4-6 indicates that the 2 resurrections will be 1,000 years apart.  Unless on is an amillennialist and dismisses Rev 20 as figurative rather than literal.

I agree. There will be a resurrection of the martyrs killed by the 'beast' and then a thousand years later the rising to stand before God in Judgment, of every human who has ever lived, including those martyrs, to give immortality to those whose names are found in the Book of Life and the Lake of Fire for all the rest. 

AMill is a direct rejection of plainly stated scripture. It is false teaching and denies that Jesus will have His reward of ruling the world. 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

Many Prophesies say the Lord is 'coming', but they refer to His terrible Day of fiery wrath; to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.  He is not seen on that Day; Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11    Which will happen several years before the glorious Return. 

Re resurrection of all believers: this does not happen until the Great White Throne Judgment - after the Millenium. Immortality is only given to anyone when Eternity comes. Revelation 21-22

Shalom, Keras.

Not so, bro'! The Resurrection of all believers happens BEFORE the Millennium starts! That's a THOUSAND YEARS (at least) BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment!

Those who belong to the Messiah will be resurrected to PARTICIPATE in the Kingdom! He WANTS His FAMILY present!

[Keras]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Keras.

Not so, bro'! The Resurrection of all believers happens BEFORE the Millennium starts! That's a THOUSAND YEARS (at least) BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment!

Those who belong to the Messiah will be resurrected to PARTICIPATE in the Kingdom! He WANTS His FAMILY present!

Show scriptures that say all the Christian dead will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. Make sure that any verse you use mentions 'all'. 

It is quite illogical and contradicts Prophecy, to have millions of resurrected people present during the Millennium. Especially before the Book of Life is opened. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Look. The Messiah is going to reign and judge throughout the Millennium! However, when it comes to these messages, one must look at the KEY PHRASES that are included in the text!

Look at the "Sheep and the Goats" again: (I'll just list a few verses that contain the key.) [FIRST, note that this is PART of the Olivet Discourse!]

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 "WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME in his glory (BRIGHTNESS), and all the holy angels with him, THEN SHALL HE SIT UPON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY (BRIGHTNESS): 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall THE KING say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ....'"

(This is one of the few places He refers Himself as "the King!")

This takes place AT THE BEGINNING of His reign, NOT AT THE END!

Don't get frustrated. I know this is a deeply held belief. 

I see a few gaps that are not filled here, and cannot be, just from the passage in Matt 25.

When Jesus sits on His glorious throne it's for the entire time He sits on the throne, not just initially. Let's assume this is for the duration of the 1000 years and leave eternity out of it for now. 

There isn't any time factor here in regards to when the Matt 25 Sheep and Goats judgement happens. We don't know from the above if it's a week later, a year, a decade or a century. 

We do know from the Gospels the people to whom Jesus spoke about the resurrection anticipated a last day resurrection of their loved ones. The Matt 25 Sheep and Goats judgment could easily be construed to be the last day resurrection and judgement the people looked forward to. 

You hang on the idea of nations not individuals being the focus here, and the treatment of His people by a collective like Iran, Turkey, Russia, etc., and they are collectively judged and sentenced appropriately, by group. 

I don't see that as plausible. Within any people group there is always a group, or several individuals, or even a single individual, that has done well and whom has the Lord's approval, even if the leadership in the country in which we find the well doing group or person is maltreating the Lord's people. 

Under your scenario then any individual or group that did right by the Lord will suffer anyway because the countries leadership did that which was wrong. 

That is unjust and not the way of the Lord. No person has to pay for the sins of another. All sin has been covered by the Blood of Christ and the individual must only confess His Lordship and believe in the His resurrection for salvation.

Then there is eternal punishment. The Goats on the left are sent away into eternal punishment. You say this happens at the beginning. 

I don't think that can be the case since this must be a resurrection of the dead, yes?

By the time wrath occurs all His people are no longer on the earth, they are safely sequestered away from the fierce unrelenting wrath of God. That means that even if there are nations still standing all are His enemies. There are no sheep nations, only goat nations.

Rev tells us that in the wrath of God no one repents. He keeps pleading with them to repent. Angels are sent out across the whole earth to beg the nations to repent, and they do not. When God's anger is finally appeased all that are left are the ones who fought against Him and refused to repent. No sheep, only goats.

So where do the sheep come from? From the ones who passed before the end of the age began. 

Matt 25 reflects and is the Rev 20:11-15 judgement and the sentence passed and the rewards bestowed. One judgment, two views. 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

NO! It DOES NOT! Don't you yet understand? The MESSIAH shall BE KING! Not just over Israel, but also over other nations, as well! That makes Him a "King of kings" - a King OVER kings, the kings' KING! We call that a "World Emperor!" Certainly, He shall reign until He is King over the ENTIRE EARTH! THAT'S why it takes Him a THOUSAND YEARS!!!

That's just not one thousand years "blown off" or "wasted" in a "peaceful environment!" There's a REASON for the 1,000 years! That's to what Paul was alluding in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28! READ IT AGAIN (remembering that the primary subject Paul is dealing with is resurrection):

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put ALL things under his feet. [But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."]

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (the Son, the Christ), that God may be all in all.

VERY IMPORTANT:

*** Now, the JOB of a King, especially over Israel, was to be the "SUPREME COURT" JUDGE! Just as both David and Shlomoh ("Solomon") were! He WON'T be just judging at the beginning of His reign or at the end of His World Emperorship! He will be JUDGING THE NATIONS - BOTH INDIVIDUALS AND WHOLE NATIONS AT ONCE - THROUGHOUT THE MILLENNIUM! ***

That's a pretty heavy burden to place on the text shown above, in my opinion. Of course it's true that judges are needed throughout the millennium as there are survivors from the great war and there are always as many grievances afoot as there are people. 

Even the angels will be judged by the elect of Christ, so sure, there is judgment every day for 1000 years. However, it is also true the last enemy that is destroyed is Satan and Gog of Magog when the 1000 years rolls over to the next phase.

So whatever it is that you think about subduing and destroying the last enemy, it doesn't happen in total until the gap between the next phase, the new heaven and earth, and eternity when fire comes down and consumes Gog.

So that end Paul is speaking to is the point when the 1000 years rolls over to the next phase. Which is also when the GWT judgement happens. Which is also when the rest of the dead that are not, "the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." and which did not, "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Which would be all from all time after the 1000 years and not just those from the millennial kingdom.

And as Keras says, and I concur, where does the scripture say, "all from all time" will be resurrected at the 1st resurrection?