Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Retrobyter]

On 11/17/2022 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Yeah...no. It's right in front of you and you persist. I'm done with this line.

Thanks for your contributions.

Shalom, Diaste.

That's it, 'ey? Well, how do y'all read Scripture?

Do you just read for the key words and try to link them up somehow, comparing single verse to single verse?

OR, do you look at a WHOLE text, try to see what the author was saying, try to envision the reality behind what was/is/will be going on, and putting yourself in others' shoes?

Do you ever go back and analyze what you THINK you know against what is revealed to you by the Ruwach haQodesh? 

It doesn't seem to me that one can be teachable without being open to the possibility one might be .... (<gasp!> whisper, "wrong") ... about a matter. 

Seems to me someone might be less dismissive if one is honest about what he or she truly knows.

[abcdef]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

You're right that these are parallel passages, and that the death of death (the 2nd death) links them together.

yes

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, don't be distracted by the verse numbers or by the length of the point being made.

ok

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There are THREE specific resurrections seen in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28:

The passage says,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (SINGULAR);

Why don't you want to count the resurrection of Jesus, as a resurrection, in the overall timeline? 

 You and I would probably agree that Jesus was the first one resurrected, but that doesn't count in the over all resurrection count? 

I mean, Jesus is number "1", in the resurrection category.

--

He was not resurrected alone. He brought all those who heard His voice. John 5:25-29, 25. He said that the timing for those to be resurrected was "now", that would be 33 AD.

-

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24

Heb 9:28, Jesus appears a "second" time for salvation.

Jesus appeared the first time in the flesh to bear our sins. When He appears again, a second time, it will be to bring the kingdom to heaven. This would be the resur/rapt where we are caught up to be with Him.

Jesus the 1st, then this second coming resur/rapt is the second resurrection.

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

There is no additional resurrection shown here.

It says that the end comes when Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

The kingdom is delivered up to the Father after death is destroyed. 

Then there cannot be any further resurrections after death is destroyed.

--

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Here's a list of events and periods:

1. Christ was risen from the dead as the Firstfruits

yes

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

2. The passage of time since Christ's resurrection to the present and then to the future when He comes again

yes

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

3. Christ comes again and those who are His are raised to life

yes

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

4. Then the Christ reigns for a thousand years

The reign of Jesus and the resurrected saints is from the Day of Pentecost until now, (the same time period as #2) and until He comes for the kingdom, then His reign ends when He delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

We are living at the end of the mill kingdom period.

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

4. a. All of His enemies are put under His feet 
4. b. The last enemy, death, is destroyed
5. The Son shall be subject to God the Father and turn over the Kingdom to God His Father
6. God the Father is all in all (that is, He is the FINAL King over all peoples)

yes

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Correct.

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, this is error. The First Resurrection of Revelation 20 will be showing Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") coming in the clouds and reigning right here on this earth, as foretold in many of the OT prophecies.

Rev 20 doesn't say anything about clouds.

It doesn't say that Jesus returns to this planet.

It says that the resurrected saints live and reign with Jesus but doesn't say that they are on planet earth.

It doesn't say whether they reign over the planet or just the spiritual Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel through the scriptures.

Is Jesus ruling over the church now?

Aren't we following the scriptures and examples that the apostles have left for us?

 Isn't Jesus ruling our hearts and minds right now? In the spiritual kingdom of God?

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The Second Resurection is when everyone who is left in the graves are brought to life to stand judgment AFTER the Messiah has reigned for a thousand years.

That is what it says.

---

Jesus said that the time when those who heard His voice would be resurrected was "now", 33 AD. Jn 5

Then He said that all would hear His voice, then both the good and evil would be resurrected.

---

What you appear to be saying is that there are at least 4 resurrections.

1. Jesus, You may agree that He was resurrected, #1.

2. The resur/rapt, Jesus comes for the kingdom/church. Heb 9:28 second coming for salvation.

3. The good saints to live and reign, at the beginning of the mill period.

4. The good and evil at the fire from heaven, at the end of the mill period.

5. A resurrection when Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the Father.

yes-no?

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeeshuwa`'s resurrection in the First Century, I call the "zeroeth resurrection," because no one else in raised to endless life at that time. HE ALONE is the Firstfruits!

The 144000 are called firstfriuts Rev 14:4.

They are seen with Jesus and John in the 1st century.

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, the events of Revelation 19 and 20 are consecutive. Simply follow the fates of the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet. In Revelation 19, we read:

Revelation 19:20-20:1-3 (KJV)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Then later, in Revelation 20, we read:

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Before the Millennium (the Thousand Years), the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire, but the Dragon (Satan) was chained in the bottomless pit.

After the Millennium, the Dragon (Satan) is released; he deceives the nations one more time, and THEN He is likewise thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the False Prophet already will have been!

Brother, I don't want to get too far off of the OP if you know what I mean.

But I will say this, the beast is Rome (iron Dan.2, 4th beast Dan.7) and Rev 19 is showing the defeat of the Roman Empire by the gospel when Rome became Christian.

The remnant is the Roman "image" of the Empire the RCC.

This already took place in the 3rd century era. 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

I agree, this seems to parallel Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15. This is at that time when the judgement occurs. 

Yes, of course. I agree with this. 

At some point certainly. But I can see Matt 13:40 alluding to Rev 20:11-15 and Matt 25:31-46

That's the entire OP. Just when does that occur? It must happen; when and what does it look like are what I'm looking for.

All that you refer to is scriptural fact. But the following is also scriptural fact:

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4-6

And with the above there is this:

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:9-14

Since every reference you posted is factual, and the references in Rev are also fact, then we have to reconcile the several factual statements about the two resurrections; and they appear to be at odds, don't they?

An easy to understand reconciliation is to think there is a group resurrected only from the GT when Jesus returns, and then the rest at the last day for the GWTJ when many names will be found written in the Book of Life. 

Shalom, Diaste. You were doing fine up to this point. You're right! The two passages - even the two GROUPS of passages, that seem to be at odds, must be reconciled. However, your "easy-to-understand reconciliation" is insufficient, because there are FAR MORE that shall be resurrected in the First Resurrection. First of all, the children of Israel MUST be there! That's the WHOLE POINT of the Messiah reigning! This group of "the children of Israel" MUST include from David and onward, although I believe the Kingdom promises were given to the children of Israel in a more general way, LONG before David came on the scene! Just consider the blessings to the children of Israel that Israel HIMSELF made in Genesis 49:

Genesis 49:8-12 (KJV)

8 "Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. 9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shallthe gathering of the people be. 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: 12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk."

Wouldn't you think, since resurrection is involved, they should be included, as well? I mean, think about it! Why would they be given the prophecy if they couldn't be privy to its fulfillment? And, shouldn't Avraham and Yitschaq (Issac) see their promises fulfilled, too?

It's not just "the Kingdom of Christ"; it's the Kingdom of God's MESSIAH provided to the children of Israel as their ULTIMATE KING!

Besides, it was recently mentioned in Yeeshuwa`s response to the Ts'duqiym (Sadducees, Greek: Saddoukaioi),

Matthew 22:31-32 (KJV)

31 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

So, they absolutely SHOULD be in the First Resurrection, included in that Kingdom of the Messiah!

Even to the serpent God announced (and Adam and Chavah or "Eve" overheard):

Genesis 3:15 (KJV)

15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

So, shouldn't even THEY be included in this resurrection to see the fulfillment of the "woman's Seed?"

On 11/16/2022 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Nothing in all the NT references I have read secures the timing of the general resurrection of all the dead at the end of the age. Nothing I have read or heard precludes a resurrection of the ones who face the beast, resurrected the moment Jesus arrives. 

And yet, we still have verse SIX, which DOES include the rest!

One more time .... PLEASE look at it carefully with an open mind!

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This sixth verse is NOT just talking about the "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands!" It's talking about EVERYBODY upon whom "the second death hath no power," which INCLUDES the "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands!" They are a SUBSET of the WHOLE! It is the WHOLE who "shall be priests of God and of Christ (His Messiah), and shall reign with Him a thousand years," not just the SUBSET!

The "rest of the dead" briefly mentioned, as indeed a parenthetical comment, are all those upon whom the "second death" DOES "have power!"

On 11/16/2022 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Also, the resurrection of the ones who faced the beast does not conflict with the general resurrection of all the dead at the last day. Both can happen and all relevant scripture is still true and factual. 

A few of the references you posted speak to a duality in the general resurrection,  the living and the damned, the enemies which are slain, the wheat gathered into the barn and tares burned, sheep and goats, everlasting life and everlasting shame and contempt, et al.

This isn't the case with Rev 7:11-15 and Rev 20:4-6. This resurrection is about a different group that came out of GT facing down the beast and overcoming the mark, forced worship and beheading. 

All the references you posted are true sayings, but so are the two references in Revelation I keep bringing up.

That means there is a resurrection of the overcoming warriors facing the beast, and these rule with Christ for 1000 years, and the rest of everyone is resurrected at the last day after the 1000 years is completed.

NOWHERE in the Second Resurrection are we told that there will be those upon whom the second death has no power. Here's the text again:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You concluded that because there were SOME who were NOT found written in the book of life, there were also SOME who WERE found written in the book of life. But, this conclusion doesn't follow good rules of logic. 

Just because the text says "whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life" says NOTHING about "those whose names WERE written in the book of life!" All we know for sure logically is that "there were standing there NOT ALL whose names were written in the book of life." That could mean that "there were SOME whose names were written in the book of life," but it could also mean "there were NONE whose names were written in the book of life!"

There's no guarantee that there were ANY standing there at the GWTJ whose names were written in the book of life!

Furthermore, remember that the key here is that they were judged "according to their works." Those who understand the justification of God KNOW that one does NOT get to God's Kingdom based upon their good deeds! There's no "heavenly scale" that measures if one's good deeds outweigh his or her bad deeds! That's NOT how it's done!

On the other hand, after one's standing with God is determined by the merits of the Messiah alone, one is rewarded or punished by his or her deeds. Those determined to be children of God through the Messiah's blood will be rewarded for their good deeds. (This is often called "the Judgment Seat of Christ" or "the Bema of Christ.") Those determined to be children of the wicked one will be punished, comparable to his or her bad deeds.

Pretribulational Rapturists believe that this "Judgment Seat of Christ" will happen in "Heaven" during "the 7 years of tribulation," just as the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" will. IMO, neither of these events will happen in a 7-year period. They will happen DURING the Millennium, the "1,000 years in which the Messiah will reign upon the earth."

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Selah7 said:

So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. "But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

- Matthew 19:28-30

I believe all of God’s Elect will be included in this gathering around the throne of Almighty God.

Yes. This belief is a common one. It may be the correct understanding; I'm just not quite convinced. The above scripture is interesting. 

But I can see the 12 resurrected for a specific purpose as foretold in Matt 19. The 12 are a special case, sort of like the 144,000. The 144,000 enjoy a special status among the redeemed, and so it appears the the 12 have a unique purpose and responsibility when Jesus returns. 

But just because the the prophecy of Matt 19:28 will be fulfilled for the 12, as it is written, doesn't extend that to millions over 2000 years. It could, but I don't see it.

And because the prophecy of Matt 19:29 will be fulfilled, there is no specific 'when' written that I can see. It seems as though some think that if eternal life isn't granted the very moment Jesus arrives, then no eternal life can be granted, ever. That's just not true as Rev 20:11-15 points out.

So Matt 19:29 can be fulfilled accurately at the 2nd resurrection as these are promised life eternal and a hundredfold blessing; which blessing may be in life on this earth, but I don't know that, and eternal life in the resurrection; whichever resurrection in which they participate. 

 

[Diaste]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:42 AM, Selah7 said:

Yes.  Those who have never bowed a knee to Satan (AC), have never received his mark or been deceived by him, will go through the First Resurrection. It is these two groups of people:

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. Andthey lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Selah

Sure. But can one 'never bend the knee' if there is no one to bend the knee to?

So if the mark, and the beast, and the image do not exist for the millions of those who died from the Ascension to the present, could all those people be said to have refused the mark and the forced worship of the beast and his image? 

Or is the refusal of the mark, and the refusal to worship the beast and his image, only possible for those who live in the time when the mark and worship is mandated? 

[Selah7]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Sure. But can one 'never bend the knee' if there is no one to bend the knee to?

So if the mark, and the beast, and the image do not exist for the millions of those who died from the Ascension to the present, could all those people be said to have refused the mark and the forced worship of the beast and his image? 

Or is the refusal of the mark, and the refusal to worship the beast and his image, only possible for those who live in the time when the mark and worship is mandated? 

These martyrs under the alter are all of the souls of believers who have perished for the faith since Christ's ascen­sion up to the present day. Stephen, the first martyr, is just one example.   

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

Both Rev 20:14 and 1 Cor 15:26 are showing the last enemy to be destroyed, which is death.

They are showing the same event at the same place in the timeline.

The events surrounding death being destroyed as the last enemy are showing what leads up to that final destruction of death.

The uniting of the 2 passages by the same event makes them parallel.

Both show the first resurrection, which Paul said was Jesus and a second resurrection just before death is destroyed.

-----

Basically, all the resurrections that are shown in the Bible where those who are resurrected and are taken up to heaven in mass, are either the first resurrection that was Jesus, or the second resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

It's three resurrections in total: Christ is the firstfruits. Then those who are His at His coming. That's two since the next resurrection is for those when Christ comes back; He can't come back if He doesn't leave so this has to be two.

Then the parallel of death being destroyed is evident where in Rev 20 death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death/resurrection.

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Yes, "many" graves were opened, not all, only those who heard His voice, John 5:25. Jesus said that the time of that resurrection "now is".

I don't think 'now is' in John 5:25 can reasonably refer to an immediate resurrection. This seems to refer instead to John 5:26-27 and the granting of life within the Son and the authority to execute judgement. 

"Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come "

How is the hour coming but already is? It's because the time of the resurrection is on the way in the future and what has now come is the time when the Father, "has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man."

 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

So that is the 1st resurrection. There can be no other "first resurrection". That means that when Rev 20 says "first resurrection" it is talking about when Jesus and those who hear His voice were raised.

Not possible since it's the group below that is depicted in the primary resurrection, and I just don't see anyone else in this group.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

The second resurrection is all in the graves. In Rev 20 that resurrection is shown by the final judgment.

--

The number 144000 is symbolic of all the children of Israel that were resurrected with Jesus from the OT time period. It is not literal. 

The great multitude is all the saved gentiles who were resurrected with Jesus.

They are seen with Jesus and John in heaven in the 85 AD-96 AD time period.

They live and reign with Jesus over the kingdom for a symbolic 1000 year time period.

I don't see any scripture that points to this. 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

The 2nd resurrection of good and evil is about to happen, a few years or it could be only months.

 

This is true, but, no one could have been "resurrected" before Jesus, if He was the first one, first fruit.

Well no, there are literally none before Jesus since He is the firstborn of all creation and the Creator Himself. Many did come back to life long before Jesus walked the earth in the 1st century.

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

The word "resurrection" is used loosely by us to sometimes mean anyone who returns from the grave. But in the context of the resurrection of Jesus and the coming for the kingdom it is confined to mean the resurrection of the dead as described by Jesus in John 5:25-29, 2 resurrections.

I agree. That is the context.

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Praise the Lord! I will see you there! 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

They are the same 2 resurrections that Paul showed in 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

Did someone tell you that the 2 resurrections of Rev 20 were counted as separate from all the other resurrections? And that they were not the same ones that Paul described in 1 Cor 15?

That the first resurrection is not the first resurrection?

No. I don't listen to mankind when it comes to scripture and especially so with prophecy. I've been around long enough to see the failures in them and in me. I find it better to listen to what is written and then ask questions, as I'm doing here. 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

The first resurrection of Rev 20 is Literally, the first resurrection, of Jesus and the OT saints.

The second resurrection of Rev 20 is Literally the second resurrection, when Jesus comes for the kingdom, followed by the last judgment, Heb 9:28. When all are raised, John 5.

---

Please observe that if you read the Rev in a consecutive timeline, that there are as many as seven or more examples of resurrections being shown. 

But if you begin with the understanding that there are only 2 resurrections, first Jesus and those who hear His voice, then 2nd when He comes for the kingdom, then you you can see the examples of the resurrections being shown as, either the first or second resurrection.

For example, the seventh trumpet. When the 7th trumpet is blown, who is it that rises up to the judgment of the rewards or punishments that come after the sounding? Rev 11:18?

It shows the 2nd resurrection (also Rev 20) because they are reward or punishment, both good and evil.

You see that the Rev is showing the same timeline over and over, repeating, showing the first or second resurrection and not an additional resurrection every time one is shown.

I agree in principle. 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Jesus is in heaven now. He will soon come for the Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel. Then there are no more resurrections, human life on this planet ends with the fire from heaven, the last judgment, death is destroyed, and then we inherit the kingdom of God the Father.

 

This is the key to understanding the Revelation.

1st time line, 7 seals and the 7 trumpets.

The 7th trumpet is the resurrection of the good and evil (rapt/resurrection, 2nd resurrection, 2nd coming for salvation Heb 9:28, Jesus comes for the kingdom 1 Cor 15:23-24).

-

2nd time line, 2 witnesses. The resurrection shown is the 2nd resurrection when Jesus comes for the gospel kingdom of Israel.

3rd time line, faithful woman Israel Rev 12. The time line ends when the woman's time in the wilderness has ended and she returns home to Jerusalem.

4th timeline, beasts of Rev 13. The time line ends when the power of the beast over the children of Israel ends and Jerusalem is restored, (1967).

etc.

 

Please consider this, that beginning with Rev 20, it is a reflection of Genesis 1.

In Genesis we see the transition from the eternal completely spiritual realm into the material world.

In Rev 20, beginning with Jesus at the first resurrection, we see the transition from the material world back to the completely spiritual realm.

---

Rev 19, does not show Jesus returning to planet earth. It shows Jesus in heaven, with the resurrected OT saints (144000, multitude, etc.) and the spiritual battle between the gospel kingdom of Israel and the Roman beast (iron of Dan. 2, 4th beast of Dan. 7).

--

Sorry this post is so long. But pre-trib has distorted many things. 

---

 

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

No. There are two resurrections 1000 years apart. The question is whom participates in which one. 

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste. You were doing fine up to this point. You're right! The two passages - even the two GROUPS of passages, that seem to be at odds, must be reconciled. However, your "easy-to-understand reconciliation" is insufficient, because there are FAR MORE that shall be resurrected in the First Resurrection. First of all, the children of Israel MUST be there! That's the WHOLE POINT of the Messiah reigning! This group of "the children of Israel" MUST include from David and onward, although I believe the Kingdom promises were given to the children of Israel in a more general way, LONG before David came on the scene! Just consider the blessings to the children of Israel that Israel HIMSELF made in Genesis 49:

Two problems here that are probably insurmountable:

Who is Israel? 

What is eternity? 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This sixth verse is NOT just talking about the "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands!" It's talking about EVERYBODY upon whom "the second death hath no power," which INCLUDES the "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands!" They are a SUBSET of the WHOLE! It is the WHOLE who "shall be priests of God and of Christ (His Messiah), and shall reign with Him a thousand years," not just the SUBSET!

The "rest of the dead" briefly mentioned, as indeed a parenthetical comment, are all those upon whom the "second death" DOES "have power!"

No, the scripture is not talking about 'everyone else'. 

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

This specifies the ones described. I don't see anyone else included in spite of the logical gymnastics. 

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them,"

And whom does the scripture point out share in the primary resurrection?

"those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

Specific as to whom and what. 

And the 2nd death may have power over the rest but the connotation is at the judgement, when the books are opened,  they are judged by what is written in the books. The resurrection after the 1000 years is not a resurrection to death for everyone that takes part in the 2nd resurrection, only for those whose names are not found in the Book of Life;

"15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life..."

This means names are found written in the Book of Life at the time of the judgement of the 2nd death.

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You concluded that because there were SOME who were NOT found written in the book of life, there were also SOME who WERE found written in the book of life. But, this conclusion doesn't follow good rules of logic. 

Just because the text says "whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life" says NOTHING about "those whose names WERE written in the book of life!" All we know for sure logically is that "there were standing there NOT ALL whose names were written in the book of life." That could mean that "there were SOME whose names were written in the book of life," but it could also mean "there were NONE whose names were written in the book of life!"

There's no guarantee that there were ANY standing there at the GWTJ whose names were written in the book of life!

Of course it's logical to conclude this. 

"And IF anyone was found whose name was not written" means both names will appear and some will not appear. 

This isn't a parallel to the illogic of including a group in an action when the participants in the action are clearly specified. This is indirect testimony of the written word that does not exclude names found, where in Rev 20:4-5 specific attributes are given, naturally excluding those not exhibiting those attributes.

No such exclusion exists in Rev 20:15 as the attribute most important at that time is if the name is found or not. 

It's also clear from Matt 25; this is the GWTJ and some enter in to the kingdom not even knowing they were going to.

I'm not saying others could not be resurrected at the primary resurrection, as @Selah7 pointed out from Matt 19. But Rev 20:4-5 specifies the ones who partake in the nature and rule with Christ for 1000 years have the described attributes; and I just don't see any others. 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, remember that the key here is that they were judged "according to their works." Those who understand the justification of God KNOW that one does NOT get to God's Kingdom based upon their good deeds! There's no "heavenly scale" that measures if one's good deeds outweigh his or her bad deeds! That's NOT how it's done!

And yet:

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

This certainly looks like deeds based merit. This people said they never saw Him yet are invited in to life eternal all the same.

"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"

So I would say, while there exists nuances to everything and full understanding is elusive on my part, nothing heretofore mentioned sways away from the general idea those who faced the beast and his mandates are the ones who rule with Christ for 1000 years and the rest wait.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

That's it, 'ey? Well, how do y'all read Scripture?

Do you just read for the key words and try to link them up somehow, comparing single verse to single verse?

OR, do you look at a WHOLE text, try to see what the author was saying, try to envision the reality behind what was/is/will be going on, and putting yourself in others' shoes?

Do you ever go back and analyze what you THINK you know against what is revealed to you by the Ruwach haQodesh? 

It doesn't seem to me that one can be teachable without being open to the possibility one might be .... (<gasp!> whisper, "wrong") ... about a matter. 

Seems to me someone might be less dismissive if one is honest about what he or she truly knows.

In this line of discussion, yes, I'm out. 

I am frequently inaccurate, ergo all people are inaccurate. Scripture is never inaccurate. 

I will only follow what and whom follows Christ. Shaming isn't really convincing to me.