Who is Resurrected, and When?

[FreeGrace]

54 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

I understand your need to not have the people of God and the people of the evil one standing at the GWT. 

I don't need to have anything, other than just the truth.  And I can fully support my views from Scripture.

You said:

"Notice the destiny of those who are being separated.

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Verse 46a goats eternal punishment, 46b sheep, righteous eternal life"

The destiny is obvious, of course.  But there is no clear statement that both the saved and the unsaved are being judged at the same event. 

We know from Rev 20:4-6 that the 2 resurrections (1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved) are 1,000 years apart, and the GWT will occur at the end of the MK.  While the Bible doesn't specifically state when the Bema occurs, and we know that all the saved will be glorified at the Second Advent, it only makes sense that the saved will receive their reward then.  

I have no problem with the saved being present at the GWT.  They will be there in service to the King and/or ruling with Him.  But their judgment (Bema) will be at the beginning of the MK, which only makes sense.  

 

[FreeGrace]

43 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I Disagree With Your Opinion And Interpretation Of Revelation 20, And My Opinion Isn't Changing

Revelation 20:1-6 Is In The Lord's Eternal Spiritual Realm, Where One Day Is A Thousand Years, "No Literal Time", It's That Simple 

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

I don't have an opinion.  I have very clearly written literal verses in Rev 20.  It is YOU with the opinion that the literal words, which don't need interpreting, are only metaphors for something else.

I just can't imagine believers who discredit the King's LITERAL rule over the nations.  It couldn't be any more clear.  When the Tribulation ends, Jesus returns to RULE over the nations, with a rod of iron.  In fact, Jesus indicated this in Matt 5.

What you've done with your opinion is to spiritualize Rev 20, which can't be proven.  However, the normal literal reading speaks for itself.  Doesn't need to be interpreted.

And your opinion about " day being 1,000 years" from 2 Peter is simply indefensible.  The contexts are different.  There is no way to  link the 2 passages.  Peter was indicating that Genesis 1 is parallel to the whole of human history, or 7,000 years, the last 1K being the MK, which exactly parallels God's 7th day rest.

Scholars have calculated that there has beeen approx 6,000 years of human history so far, and it appears that we are about (or already IN) the last 7 years before the MK.

But you are free to your own opinions.  I will comfortably stay with the literal reading of Rev 20.  Which doesn't need any interpreting.

Edited November 29, 2022 by FreeGrace

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, when He comes "with fire and judgment," it will be LOCAL and exacted upon His and Israel's enemies. It's not the "FINAL" anything!

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

[Diaste]

On 11/28/2022 at 4:36 AM, Uriah said:

How weird to be married to a city, a collection of buildings and streets? And how is this city given white robes to wear?

Your quote about non-marriage among resurrected (and assumedly) raptured people applies to one another. 

Well...

"....prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." is a simile. The city is decked out in pure splendor, all eyes on it, the entire reason for the moment. Not really an actual bride.

However, the angel does say, 

"Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”"

Then immediately John is shown the city, not a large group of redeemed believers. And now would be the right time to show the actual bride of the Lamb [Jesus, Christ], since the angel said, "I'm going to show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

This isn't me, Scripture says this. I'm just repeating what's written.

I get it's not popular.

We have all been taught, for many years, many things as we literally stumble in and out of churches neatly and comfortably hanging on the preaching and not the written word.  

Soooo....according to scripture the city is the bride, the wife of the Lamb, and we are guests at this joining ceremony. 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't have an opinion.  I have very clearly written literal verses in Rev 20.  It is YOU with the opinion that the literal words, which don't need interpreting, are only metaphors for something else.

I just can't imagine believers who discredit the King's LITERAL rule over the nations.  It couldn't be any more clear.  When the Tribulation ends, Jesus returns to RULE over the nations, with a rod of iron.  In fact, Jesus indicated this in Matt 5.

What you've done with your opinion is to spiritualize Rev 20, which can't be proven.  However, the normal literal reading speaks for itself.  Doesn't need to be interpreted.

And your opinion about " day being 1,000 years" from 2 Peter is simply indefensible.  The contexts are different.  There is no way to  link the 2 passages.  Peter was indicating that Genesis 1 is parallel to the whole of human history, or 7,000 years, the last 1K being the MK, which exactly parallels God's 7th day rest.

Scholars have calculated that there has beeen approx 6,000 years of human history so far, and it appears that we are about (or already IN) the last 7 years before the MK.

But you are free to your own opinions.  I will comfortably stay with the literal reading of Rev 20.  Which doesn't need any interpreting.

Good points.

I think people get really freaked out when they ponder Jesus being here and ruling; maybe even more so in Western Society as there are no real rules or code to live by and many do want any sort of behavioral code imposed, a code that draws a distinct line is even less desirable.

If they can spiritualize it all it now means nothing and no kind of behavioral code, leading to the logical conclusion of the reality of that terrifying monster; personal responsibility, can exist or be imposed.

Who wants that? [sar]

I'm with you. A responsible literal reading is the only way to approach the written Word.

[Diaste]

On 11/28/2022 at 4:23 AM, truth7t7 said:

Scripture teaches below the believer will be resurrected on "The Last Day" this literally means "The Last Day"

You teach there will be a believers resurrection at the second coming, and another believers resurrection 1,000 years later 

The scripture below shows your claims are "False"

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I'm pretty sure I said I was bowing out of this line of discussion.

Have a good day!

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

This isn't me, Scripture says this. I'm just repeating what's written.

Here, the resurrected/raptured people, "meet the Lord in the air." 

Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power,unto the Lord our God

 

Let's pay particular attention to this event.

Rev 19:7- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8- And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

When does this happen? When Jesus comes, NOT a thousand yrs later!

Rev 19:11- And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:19- And I saw the beast, and the, kings of the earth, and their armies,  gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his  army.

 

I conclude that, yes, the city is decked out and dazzling, like a bride on her wedding day. But Jesus doesn't marry a city and cover it with fine linen. The city is the place He prepares for the saints. No waiting for a millennium for the honeymoon suite.

I stand by the premise of the parenthetic/digressional passage in Rev 20 being the root cause of many mis-readings.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Retrobyter,

It is obvious that there are many different views of this time.  As I look at the wheat and tares, I see a distinctive separation.  The first taken out at the time of the harvest are the tares.  I connect this with Malachi 4, Matt 3, and Revelation 14:14-19.  I believe that this day will wipe out all people that do not fit into the wheat category.

Shalom, seeking the lost.

I find your take on this interesting! The problem, as I see it, is "wiping out all people that do not fit into the wheat category" going into the Kingdom!

Within the Kingdom of God, which initially will only exist within the vicinity of Israel and perhaps a few vassal states within the Middle East, the Messiah will reign and - yes - it will consist of wheat - the children of the Kingdom. HOWEVER, worldwide, there will be many who are foreign nations and some of those nations will become annexed into the Kingdom, either willingly or as the Messiah subdues His enemies. This will introduce tares - children of the wicked one - into His Kingdom.

See, the tares and the wheat parable doesn't finish until the end of the Millennium. THAT'S when the tares are weeded out of the Messiah's Kingdom, leaving the wheat to go into the Kingdom of God, the FATHER'S Kingdom, throughout eternity in the New Earth.

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The thousand years will be inhabited by those who are categorically wheat.

Within the Kingdom, yes. HOWEVER, there's still a BIG WORLD out there! And, it will take a thousand years for the Messiah to subdue all of His enemies. This is the information we get from 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. There's the Kingdom of God represented by His Messiah, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") as the King. However, Yeeshuwa` [pronounced "yay-SHOO-(g)ah"], like His ancestor David, will admit that God His Father is the TRUE King of Israel. He will say, as He said before, that He only does what His Father wants!

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Concerning the coming of the Lord. 1] He is here.  Rev. 1: 8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty..  Do not neglect the "is". 

One must NEVER forget to recognize the different roles of the Persons of the "Godhead!" The Father is the One to whom Yeeshuwa` prayed! Yeeshuwa` AT MOST confessed to being the "Son of God." (NOT "God the Son!" That is a MADE-UP title for Him that theologians in the Dark Ages gave Him!) He NEVER called Himself "God"; that was a conclusion that the Pharisees made of Him because He said that He was the "SON of God!" Most of the time, He called Himself the "Son of man," which means a "true human being."

God the FATHER of the Messiah is the King of all Creation, but Yeeshuwa` was a man created by the Holy Spirit of God to fulfill the prophecy made to His ancestor King David. (See the Davidic Covenant in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17 and Luke 1:30-33.)

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

2] He will come as a conquering king.  This will be the time that the tares are taken out, and the grapes are CAST INTO THE WINEPRESS of his wrath.

Yes, in the Second Coming - His Second Advent - He comes as the Victorious and Conquering and Reigning Messiah, while during His First Coming - His First Advent - He came as the Suffering and Dying Messiah. The Jews have known about these two sets of prophecies about the Messiah for a VERY LONG TIME! In fact, that's what John the Baptist was asking while in prison: "Art thou He that should come (the Victorious, Conquering, Reigning Messiah, as well) or should we look for another (because you're solely the Suffering and Dying Messiah and there will be another who is the Victorious, Conquering, Reigning Messiah)?

So, no, the tares are not taken out until AFTER the Millennium!

Those "grapes" that are cast into "the winepress of His wrath" are those who attempt to STAND IN HIS WAY from acquiring the Land of Israel, ALL of the Land of Israel, as HIS Land! This happens at the BEGINNING of His reign - at the BEGINNING of the Millennium! It is at THIS time at the BEGINNING of His Reign, that will be the time of the separation of sheep and goat NATIONS that were in the battles leading up to the Battle of Har-Megiddown ("Armageddon" in Greek), that will occur on the plain of Jezre'el just north of Tel-Megiddo, 35 km SE of Haifa in Israel.

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

3]He will come as judge of all the earth.  This is at the end of the thousand years.  All the dead are raised and the books are opened.  That is the time of the separation of sheep and goats.

Not really. See, He will come as KING over Israel, because He was ASSIGNED His role as King by God the Father Himself; then as He acquires other nations as vassal states, they will be annexed, and He begins to become "the KING of kings," a WORLD EMPEROR!

At the END of the Millennium, He will have become the King over EVERY nation in the whole World, and He will be "the KING of kings" for all! When He has subdued ALL of His enemies, then He will turn over the Kingdom to His Father, and we are ushered into the New Earth and New Sky with the New Jerusalem landing as its Capitol!

One of the jobs of a King (especially of Israel) is to be a Supreme Court Judge for the Land! In that way, and especially as He acquires all other countries, He will judge all of the earth, ultimately as the King who sits upon the Great White Throne for the ending Judgment. His last enemy, Death, will be destroyed at that time, and then "shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him (God the Father) who put all things under Him (the Son), that God (the Father) may be all in all!" It is at that time that we move from the Kingdom of the Messiah to the Kingdom of God DIRECTLY! Yeeshuwa` will continue to reign forever over the house of Ya`aqoV ("Jacob"), but now the Empire itself will be ruled by God His Father.

Hope all this helps you.

[Uriah]

On 11/29/2022 at 2:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

Revelation 6:14 is a LOCAL event!

You have absolutely NO proof of this claim. I checked at least 13 translations-the sky vanished like a scrolling up! It says that when the sky rolls up the people of the world see, "the FACE" of Jesus. And it so happens that He will be seen from horizon to horizon! The entire planet sees him at the same time and they try to hide.

 

On 11/29/2022 at 2:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

And, what does this verse mean by "all the host of heaven?" In context, "all the host" "shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine and as a fallign fig from the fig tree." This suggests that we are talking about the "stars" of the sky, but even that is more accurately understood to mean the "meteors" of the sky, rather than real stars.

Rev 6:13- And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her  untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Pretty much the same report here. Ancient people referred to what we call meteors as shooting stars or falling stars.

On 11/29/2022 at 2:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

And, the shaking of the mountains and islands so that they move slightly from their current locations, will be massive, of course, but again, not global nor universal in scope! The mountains and islands are still extant.

Again, NO proof of this at all!  It is a general statement, thus inclusive of all of them

 

On 11/29/2022 at 2:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

In Isaiah 34:4, the Hebrew word "vnaamaqquw" comes from the root word "maaqaq," which means "to decay, rot, fester, pine away." To translate it as "shall be dissolved" is not quite right, because "to dissolve" suggests an IMMEDIATE demise; however, this will happen OVER TIME!

Nope! Check out (1) below. The focus is on the result-dripping. THAT is what is it is compared to as the "meteors" fall. 

 

In fact, the meteors (and huge hailstones)  are the debris ejected into space by the asteroid in Rev 8:81

On 11/29/2022 at 2:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

Then why do you keep missing some?

Wrong, I keep on adding more, not stuck on one verse alone about the city.

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm pretty sure I said I was bowing out of this line of discussion.

Have a good day!

In error you have taught the "Last Enemy Death" is destroyed 1,000 "After" the return if Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54 clearly shows when Jesus Returns and the believers are glorified to "Immortality" the last enemy death is swallowed up in victory

How can you claim this takes place 1,000 "After" the return of Jesus Christ, when scripture clearly teaches otherwise?