Abandonment (apostasɩ́a)

[Dennis1209]

20 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

You could say apostasy occurs because someone has moved away from a position, whereas an apostle is someone who others, especially God, send forth from a position.

Very true, and we also could imply it to mean moving away from Christ centered Christianity, truth, morals, behavior, and values. The way it is escalating as we speak. Many are being taught, and are falling away even from the gender and identification they are born with. Adults allowing and encouraging children at an early age to be what they want to be. Gender separation in sports, locker rooms, bathrooms have become discrimination and offensive. People are being fired, labeled, and disparaged for not going along with the program, to cite only one disgusting example of many. 

[Alive]

11 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Dennis,

The episunagōgē of 2 Thess 2:1 and the harpazō of 1 Thess 4:17 are the same event.

Are you familiar with these main Greek words in 2 Thessalonians 2 ?

παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
Total KJV occurrences: 24

ἐπισυναγωγή
episunagōgē
ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay'
From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): - assembling (gathering) together.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Total KJV occurrences: 20

κατέχω
katechō
kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Total KJV occurrences: 19

μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Total KJV occurrences: 27

ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

ἄνομος
anomos
an'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
Total KJV occurrences: 10

 

What do you all think this is a picture of?

Is. 43:1 (ESVS)    But now thus says the LORD,    he who created you, O Jacob,   he who formed you, O Israel:    “Fear not, for I have redeemed you;    I have called you by name, you are mine.

2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;   and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;    when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,   and the flame shall not consume you.

3  For I am the LORD your God,   the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.    I give Egypt as your ransom,   Cush and Seba in exchange for you.

4  Because you are precious in my eyes,   and honored, and I love you,   I give men in return for you,   peoples in exchange for your life.

5 Fear not, for I am with you;    I will bring your offspring from the east,   and from the west I will gather you.

6  I will say to the north, Give up,   and to the south, Do not withhold;   bring my sons from afar   and my daughters from the end of the earth,

7  everyone who is called by my name,   whom I created for my glory,   whom I formed and made.”

[Mike Mclees]

On 9/18/2022 at 6:28 AM, Dennis1209 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

A falling away from what and who? It is THE sign Paul gives that the seven-year Tribulation is fast approaching, and the revealing of the Antichrist is near. If you hold a pretribulation view, how much closer is the return of our Lord for His bride?

Never in my lifetime did I think I would be witnessing what is happening today, escalating rapidly. To share my thoughts, I want to define the meaning of "a falling away" that is a key to the end times and Tribulation, apostasɩ́a.

The noun apostasɩ́a appears as an apocalyptic reference to a rebellion at the end of the age (2 Thess. 2:3). Two specific theological uses of the verb that are problematic are a warning to avoid having an evil heart that "turns away from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).

A cursory look at today's conditions of our Laodicean churches is telling. Prosperity gospels, false gospels, tickling of ears, watered down Gospels, losing their first love Jesus, ecumenicalism all religions worship the same god, called by different names in various cultures and religions. [i]

The laundry list for rebellion and abandonment is too numerous to list them all. The world generally has lost all moral principles and historical biblical values. Humanism, critical race theory, wokeism, gender identity and pronouns, abortion, cancel culture, and on and on.

The natural extension of the preceding is animal self-identification, and guess what is now happening? [ii] When I suspect things cannot possibly get viler and more ridiculous, along comes something else even more ludicrous.  

We are now witnessing a warmup, the prelude to how evil this abandonment will get as time passes. I believe we are in the time Paul speaks about, just before the Rapture.

 

---

Pope Francis

[ii] Kids “Identifying” as Animals? - AMAC - The Association of Mature American Citizens

Could you tell us what the 7 yr tribulation period is? 

[David1701]

26 minutes ago, Alive said:

What do you all think this is a picture of?

Is. 43:1 (ESVS)    But now thus says the LORD,    he who created you, O Jacob,   he who formed you, O Israel:    “Fear not, for I have redeemed you;    I have called you by name, you are mine.

2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;   and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;    when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,   and the flame shall not consume you.

3  For I am the LORD your God,   the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.    I give Egypt as your ransom,   Cush and Seba in exchange for you.

4  Because you are precious in my eyes,   and honored, and I love you,   I give men in return for you,   peoples in exchange for your life.

5 Fear not, for I am with you;    I will bring your offspring from the east,   and from the west I will gather you.

6  I will say to the north, Give up,   and to the south, Do not withhold;   bring my sons from afar   and my daughters from the end of the earth,

7  everyone who is called by my name,   whom I created for my glory,   whom I formed and made.”

It looks like salvation, then tribulation, a declaration of God's discriminating love, followed by the resurrection of God's elect.

[Ray12614]

Very interesting conversations . . . . thanks to Dennis and all who contributed posts. 

I find the comment about the year 2028 intriguing and exciting.

On an related side-note: About 10 years ago, a gentlemen who come to my church cornered me and was trying to convince me that Jesus was coming during the feast of Trumpets. I agreed that He could come then, but, was unsure about the timing as far as the year was concerned. Then I felt the Holy Spirit move inside of me, and I asked the man what he would do after the feast IF Jesus did not come back when he thought Jesus would come . . .  (long silence . . . crickets chirping . . . ) then the man repeated his statement "But Jesus will come back during the feast in September". I sensed the Holy Spirit prompting me to ask him the question again . . . and added . . . 'Okay, but, If Jesus does not come back then, what will you do? Will you be shaken and no longer serve God?' The man reluctantly replied 'No of course not . . . but . . . Jesus is coming in September'. I let my point drop, since I have found over years that I don't have to have the last word to be right and try to win any kind of debate. 

Well, it appears that my questions were really warnings from the Holy Spirit, because after September (when Jesus had to come back but didn't) this man was severely shaken and stopped living for Jesus, attending church, and last I knew he was living a pagan backslidden life . . . I pray that he God will grant him repentance and turn back to the living God, and Great Savior Jesus the King.

2028 is an awesome year for Jesus to come back!  It excites me greatly! BUT . . . if He does not come back then (not saying He is not) I have determined to serve Him with all my heart until He does come back, OR I go to be with Him (absent from the body present with the Lord . . .  via death). Either way . . . it is a win - win situation for me !

Hope this helps somebody . . . 

Grace and Peace . . . Ray . . .

 

[Alive]

Just now, David1701 said:

It looks like salvation, then tribulation, a declaration of God's discriminating love, followed by the resurrection of God's elect.

Amen! I see Christ and those who are 'In Christ' everywhere.

This has been a joy to study and consider and I recently discovered a new resource to add to my Accordance Software, that looks at the NT references to the OT scriptures and I am having a blast!

https://accordancebible.com/product/handbook-on-the-new-testament-use-of-the-old-testament-exegesis-and-interpretation/

:-)

[Alive]

1 minute ago, Ray12614 said:

Very interesting conversations . . . . thanks to Dennis and all who contributed posts. 

I find the comment about the year 2028 intriguing and exciting.

On an related side-note: About 10 years ago, a gentlemen who come to my church cornered me and was trying to convince me that Jesus was coming during the feast of Trumpets. I agreed that He could come then, but, was unsure about the timing as far as the year was concerned. Then I felt the Holy Spirit move inside of me, and I asked the man what he would do after the feast IF Jesus did not come back when he thought Jesus would come . . .  (long silence . . . crickets chirping . . . ) then the man repeated his statement "But Jesus will come back during the feast in September". I sensed the Holy Spirit prompting me to ask him the question again . . . and added . . . 'Okay, but, If Jesus does not come back then, what will you do? Will you be shaken and no longer serve God?' The man reluctantly replied 'No of course not . . . but . . . Jesus is coming in September'. I let my point drop, since I have found over years that I don't have to have the last word to be right and try to win any kind of debate. 

Well, it appears that my questions were really warnings from the Holy Spirit, because after September (when Jesus had to come back but didn't) this man was severely shaken and stopped living for Jesus, attending church, and last I knew he was living a pagan backslidden life . . . I pray that he God will grant him repentance and turn back to the living God, and Great Savior Jesus the King.

2028 is an awesome year for Jesus to come back!  It excites me greatly! BUT . . . if He does not come back then (not saying He is not) I have determined to serve Him with all my heart until He does come back, OR I go to be with Him (absent from the body present with the Lord . . .  via death). Either way . . . it is a win - win situation for me !

Hope this helps somebody . . . 

Grace and Peace . . . Ray . . .

 

Amen brother! The reason for the hope that is within us.

[Starise]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:28 AM, Dennis1209 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 I see the falling away prior to the man of sin and continuing worse over time .

All of the things covered in the falling away are observable if we go back 20-30 years and compare to today. Even recently we have some crazy things happening as has been mentioned.

Are the two events consecutive or do they happen alongside one another? It seems to me to be a consecutive series of events that culminate in the man of sin with things only getting worse from there, although to the blinded they will seem better.

The  group of persons responsible for helping to move the great reset along at all levels of governments in the world ties to powerful business moguls and trickles down to apostate religious leaders. 

In a nutshell this is how I see it going down, and if you see something different by all means please let me read your thoughts-

People fall away from God and are blinded by the deceptions of the world. They no longer have anything solid to hold on to. After all, they have rejected their only hope. Next along comes a man, a Satan possessed man- the anti Christ who offers peace and safety. The Jewish community will accept him. The Muslim community will accept him,  the apostate christian church will accept him. While he wears out the saints, most are saying peace and safety because not being believers, it doesn't affect them. As the bible indicates there are still some skirmishes even during this supposed peaceful time. 31/2 years into this the anti christ will show his true colors to the world. The Jews will then realize he isn't their messiah and a remnant of them will be saved.

During this time it isn't just the anti christ the world is dealing with, the Lord is dispensing his wrath on men here who rebelled and continue to rebel against Him. Most everyone knows about the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls.

When the man of sin is revealed we will all know who he is immediately, or at least those who are ready and informed will know who he is. Those who are blinded will not.

Right now we are all witnessing the falling away. We will still have churches and religious people, which might lead some to believe nothing much has changed. In fact everything has changed or is changing. 

When the Lord returns for those who are "alive and remain" these are those who lasted through all of it and have been preserved.

The main niggle over all of this is usually over that last 7 year period, which if taken along with the time before it is a drop in the bucket. When a person says "at the end" they could be referring to the very end at the last trumpet or the end relative to a 7 years series of events. 

As believer I see this text telling us we will be here to see the falling away and we will be here to see the AC. The bible then goes through a sequence of events leading up to the rapture at the end in my opinion.

 

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, Starise said:

 I see the falling away prior to the man of sin and continuing worse over time .

All of the things covered in the falling away are observable if we go back 20-30 years and compare to today. Even recently we have some crazy things happening as has been mentioned.

Are the two events consecutive or do they happen alongside one another? It seems to me to be a consecutive series of events that culminate in the man of sin with things only getting worse from there, although to the blinded they will seem better.

The  group of persons responsible for helping to move the great reset along at all levels of governments in the world ties to powerful business moguls and trickles down to apostate religious leaders. 

In a nutshell this is how I see it going down, and if you see something different by all means please let me read your thoughts-

People fall away from God and are blinded by the deceptions of the world. They no longer have anything solid to hold on to. After all, they have rejected their only hope. Next along comes a man, a Satan possessed man- the anti Christ who offers peace and safety. The Jewish community will accept him. The Muslim community will accept him,  the apostate christian church will accept him. While he wears out the saints, most are saying peace and safety because not being believers, it doesn't affect them. As the bible indicates there are still some skirmishes even during this supposed peaceful time. 31/2 years into this the anti christ will show his true colors to the world. The Jews will then realize he isn't their messiah and a remnant of them will be saved.

During this time it isn't just the anti christ the world is dealing with, the Lord is dispensing his wrath on men here who rebelled and continue to rebel against Him. Most everyone knows about the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls.

When the man of sin is revealed we will all know who he is immediately, or at least those who are ready and informed will know who he is. Those who are blinded will not.

Right now we are all witnessing the falling away. We will still have churches and religious people, which might lead some to believe nothing much has changed. In fact everything has changed or is changing. 

When the Lord returns for those who are "alive and remain" these are those who lasted through all of it and have been preserved.

The main niggle over all of this is usually over that last 7 year period, which if taken along with the time before it is a drop in the bucket. When a person says "at the end" they could be referring to the very end at the last trumpet or the end relative to a 7 years series of events. 

As believer I see this text telling us we will be here to see the falling away and we will be here to see the AC. The bible then goes through a sequence of events leading up to the rapture at the end in my opinion.

 

I know I’m parroting something you already know, but I hang my hat on our “blessed hope” that we will not enter the Tribulation. Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. In the context of what is being referenced here, how does one comfort another going through the worst time in human history, or ever will be? I am aware of all views on the timing of the harpazo; many fine men of God have opposing views.

Many agree that the official start of the Tribulation begins when the “Lawless one” sets his pen down after confirming the seven-year peace accord. From my viewpoint, I suppose it is possible for the saved to still be on earth to witness this signing. Then flash-bang, gone, but I highly doubt it based on several reasons.

For every supporting verse of my view, another verse can be quoted that “seems” to indicate support for their position. So, it is not beneficial or productive to argue or to swap verses back and forth.

The Bible is also a Book of symbology, types, shadows, and patterns, would you agree? To name only a few: The Temple | Tabernacle, with all the implements, positioning, and measuring. The Ark of the Covenant, and its design, measurements, and purpose. They are all symbolic, types, and a pattern of Someone and something in Heaven.

Another example of a type, shadow, and pattern that is often overlooked, is the second Temple period Jewish wedding procedure and customs. It fits what we are told about the harpazo of the bride of Christ by surprise to a tee. Everything from the betrothal, to the groom leaving to prepare a place for them, to the father telling his son the house is ready, go fetch your bride (the bride was to be patiently watching and waiting for his return), to the unannounced and surprise arrival to snatch his bride away, then the wedding feast followed by the consummation. I believe this Jewish wedding tradition is symbolic, and a pattern of the sequence of the marriage of the Lamb.

Betrothal was legally binding having the force of law. They were more than engaged, they were already married, and the consummation of the marriage made it official. Sound familiar? Nowhere in this marriage tradition is there spousal abuse or subjection to torment, wrath, and anger.

Another interesting discussion to chat about Starise 😊