The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[kenny2212]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It’s a mysterious matter. The Tribulation (I take it to be the last 3.5 years) indicates that the age of grace is over. The saints left on earth are conquered by the Beast (Rev.13:7). Who is left to preach Christ? And yet Revelation 20:4-6 is clear. Some do resist the Beast, and you can‘t be a king in Christ‘s Kingdom unless you are born again and baptised (Jn.3:3-6). I haven’t settled this matter in my mind yet.

Thanks AdHoc.

[other one]

Well, it's just my personal opinion, but after many readings of it all, it seems to me that the great tribulation is the wrath of satan against us when he's thrown down here and for one reason or another we will not be here for the wrath of God.

[iamlamad]

On 11/26/2022 at 4:00 AM, kenny2212 said:

Rev. 6: 9-11 (NKJV) -

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Well I believe they are killed before the tribulation (not only because of Rev. 6:12-17 which I believe is the rapture), but also because of 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 (NKJV) - 

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will BRING WITH HIM those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (emphasis mine).

Please note that the "bring with him" in verse 14 means that the spirits of believers who die before the rapture go to be with Jesus in heaven (hence in Rev. 6:9 the souls of the martyred believers ARE IN HEAVEN).

Their souls are not sleeping like some say. Only their bodies are.

Rev. 20:4-6 (NKJV) - 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Believers who die after the rapture (during the tribulation period) do soul sleep.

If most of what I've written is correct, then the rider of the white horse of the first seal can't be the antichrist (who is revealed after the rapture).

Thanks for reading. Any questions or comments?

What is the context for the first seal  - white horse and rider? If we back up to chapter 5, we read that Jesus just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - so around 32 AD. For confimation, if we back up and get the entire context, Jesus was NOT SEEN in the vision of the throne room in chapter 4, was NOT FOUND WORTHY in the first search John watched, and the Holy Spirit was still there in the throne room. 

So - - - - - what time is this showing us? It is why Jesus was on the earth or under the earth. (That is why He was not seen at the right hand of the Father.)

Then later, when Jesus WAS found worthy, that show He had just risen from the dead. And in the next verse, John saw Jesus enter the throne room  - probably right after telling Mary not to touch HIm for He had not yet ascended.

The first thing Jesus did was take the book and begin opening the seals.

The first seal then is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to only 1/4 of the earth - without  doubt the 1/4 centered on Jerusalem.

Seal 5 then can only be the martyrs of the church age.

[iamlamad]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:08 PM, kenny2212 said:

I think the "final 7 years" (for lack of a better phrase) should be called something other than the "tribulation". Tribulation? For whom? Believers won't be here by that time. May be it should be called the "time of Jacob's trouble". I don't think those who convert during the "final 7 years" could be called "tribulation saints" because their eternal destiny hinges solely and very majorly on a "non-salvation event" - refusing the mark of the beast.

Rev. 14: 9 - 11 (NKJV) - 

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Jesus said, after "the tribulation" of those days... Since He used this term, it is an OK term. However, I use "Daniel's 70th week" or "the time of Jacob's trouble."

I refer to "those days" of "great tribulation" to refer to what Jesus said, "then shall be great tribulation." I think using these terms, no one will be confused.

"Final 7 years" gets the point across too. I just critiqued a Pre-wrath book by Alan Kurschner and he always wrote, "the seven-year period."

[iamlamad]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:40 PM, kenny2212 said:

Tribulation ends when God steps in. Even if God steps in with wrath.

God "steps in" as shown in Revelation 19 when Jesus returns to ARmageddon. Notice that the saints return with Him. He returns from the marriage and supper which will take place in heaven.

[iamlamad]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:25 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

I think it's got something to do with, time.

 

You will not leave my soul in Sheol (the abode of the dead)
neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
Psalm 16:10

As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness,
I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness.
Psalm 17:15

For we know that if the earthly house [physical body] of our tabernacle [soul] is destroyed, we have a building [a body] from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven...  8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1

So also is the resurrection of the dead...
it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

[And we know from Revelation 19 that the raised body we get is actual,
I don't think Paul means an ethereal body, but some sort of spirit based body.
Our natural body contains a spirit, I think spiritual bodies are the opposite,
with the matter being more contained/controlled by the spirit]

For I know that my redeemer lives,
and He shall stand at the last day upon the land,
and even if worms destroy this body and I die,
yet in my flesh shall I see God.
Job 19:26

Israel's dead men shall rise,
together with my dead body shall they arise.
Isaiah 26:19

Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

And now I stand and am judged for the hope of
the promise made of God unto our fathers. ...

Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you,
that God should raise the dead?

Acts 26:6-8 

Ezekiel 37:12-13
"I will open up your graves, and bring you up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel"
"And you shall know that I am the Lord when I bring you up
out of your graves"

[And there is no other such promise of resurrection in scripture,
clearly Ezekiel 37:12-13 is what Paul was referring to]

 

 

From our perspective now there is a resurrection to come,
perhaps when we die, saints immediately wake up to that time,
we wake up on a horse; Rev 19:14 [Ez 37:9-10, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Jude 1:14-15]
high up in the sky as part of an army of resurrected saints.

And so, what we would initially see of our Lord, is His backside.
[Exodus 33:23, Joel 2:11, Rev 19:14]

As we wake up from death to immediately coming down with Him
to reign.

For the righteous will rejoice when they see the vengeance,
they shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked.
Psalm 58:10

The wicked shall be ashes under your feet in the day
that I do this says the Lord. Malachi 4:3
 

 

I disagree on your "wake up." Physically a body dies, but our spirit and soul never sleep and certainly never die. At the pre-trib rapture, the church ends up in heaven to wait out the 7 years of God's wrath on earth. On the last day - at the 7th bowl - the Old Testament saints rise. Then, all of God's people are in heaven for the marriage and supper. 

After that, we all get on white horses to follow Jesus to Armageddon.

[iamlamad]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:15 PM, The Light said:

There it is again. I'm getting light headed.

I don't believe this is correct Sister. The mark of the beast will happen sometime in the midst of the week. What you are quoting occurs during the wrath of God. The day of the Lord is 1000 years long. The day of His wrath is one year long. 

The 6th seal is the end of the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal.

I know alot of people think that Sister, but it is incorrect. The 1st 4 seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, are the "beginning of sorrows" in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 the tribulation is over.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event, the coming of Jesus happens at the 6th seal. Then the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. That the trumpets of wrath. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

It would be SO NICE if what you wrote actually agreed with scripture. Case in point:

"The 6th seal is the end of the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal."

The truth is, the 6th seal will be opened between the 5th seal and the 7th seal. At the 7th seal the book is opened to reveal the start of the 70th week of Daniel.

The 6th seal begins the Day of His wrath, so is the start of His wrath.
The 7th seal begins the 70th week.

God places the entire 70th week inside the Day of the Lord so every judgment comes with His wrath.

[iamlamad]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:58 PM, The Light said:

Don't hear those words much around here Sister. 

The rapture at the 6th seal will occur and then the wrath of God will begin. Those two witnesses are killed during the wrath of God.

Without much doubt, the Two Witness will be killed 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, they be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints. 

Do you think God is still angry at the battle of Armageddon?

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It would be SO NICE if what you wrote actually agreed with scripture. Case in point:

"The 6th seal is the end of the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal."

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, the 6th seal will be opened between the 5th seal and the 7th seal.

I got some more truth for you. The second seal will be opened between the 1st and 3rd seal. Let's get crazy. The fourth seal will be opened between the 3rd and 5th seal. We are on a roll.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

At the 7th seal the book is opened to reveal the start of the 70th week of Daniel.

The final week will begin when the seals are opened. There is only one year left in the final 7 years when the 7th seal is opened.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The 6th seal begins the Day of His wrath, so is the start of His wrath.
The 7th seal begins the 70th week.

God places the entire 70th week inside the Day of the Lord so every judgment comes with His wrath.

The final week begins with the confirming of the covenant and the seals are opened at that time. Only 1 year remains at the 7th seal opening. It is a year of Gods wrath.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:24 PM, AdHoc said:

Missmuffet is right Kenny. First, soul-sleep is a man-made concept.

Lets do it this, what does the bible say, that is the most important concept, not what we think, or even others think. I see nowhere in the bible where this concept of people going straight tom heaven exists, outside a few people taking Paul's words of to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. That is taken out of context, Paul is trying to teach his new converts, or older converts with people who have already died, that their loved ones have not been  forsaken, they will be with the Lord. So, he's pushing these facts that to be absent from the body means we are all going to be with the Lord, he doesn't know when the Rapture is going to take place, it could be anytime after the Gospel has been spread the world over. So, he is trying to assure them their loved ones will [eventually] be with the Lord.

As in HEY, if you die, you are going to be with the Lord, he is not saying right away, because he knows that is not factual, but people have. But people have indeed wrongly interpreted it that way. In Isaiah we are told Line upon line,  precept upon precept for a reason. That is how I do everything, when we do that, this whole concept of going straight tom heaven falls to pieces. Then we see how both Daniel and Paul says WE SLEEP until the end. Two great men of God !!

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up(Rev. 12 or END TIMES), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, Daniel says when Michael STANDS UP those who SLEEP will AWAKE !! Hmmm, is Daniel fibbing unto us here? I do nit think so because Gabriel is telling all of this unto Daniel !! And Jesus (Man in Linen) is there with him !! So, when does Daniel stand up? At the very end times to save Israel from the coming Anti-Christ and Red Dragon, as Rev. 12 tells us.  Now lets see what Paul says.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(with no Sin Flesh), and we shall be changed (Those alive will FORSAKE their Sin Flesh and go to be with the Lord as Spirit Men, the same was as those who AWAKE from sleep/Death go to be with the Lord as Spirit Men. We can see this in verse 44).

 

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So, why are the dead raised INCORRUPTIBLE ? Because they have no Sin Flesh, it has rotted away, they are raises as a Spirit Man in Christ Jesus. REMEMBER, Paul said our spirit is willing but our FLESH IS WEAK !! So, when the Last Trump is blown (which ends the Church Age Harvest of Souls) we who are alive simply must LOSE OUR SIN FLESH meaning we leave it behind and go to Heaven as a Bride of Christ, via nothing but our spirit man, thus we need White Robes (New Glorified Bodies ) when we get to Heaven. 

So, both Gabriel, who is teaching Daniel the Prophet, and Paul says our souls sleep until the End Times or Last Trump. So, where does this idea come from that we go straight to heaven? Weigh it in the scales brother. The facts are the facts. I can teach it and prove it, but I can't make a horse drink the water.