Replacement Theology

[other one]

9 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,   If some are offended it is destined that they be offended. That  is a good thing for it establishes there is disagreement that needs be reconciled if possible. I do not want to gloss over that offense instead I find need to emphasize it openly.

My Lord Jesus ( Yeshua) is an offense, yet I am not going to dance around His name in order to avoid offending.

“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” 

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. "

 

depends on whether or not people truly listen to you past that word.

Quote

Look at what those people did over the centuries, and you call them chosen...   He divorced all but Judah at one time and you call them chosen.   If that's the case what's the big deal about being his chosen.

That's the reply from many people over the past 50 years.   I'm just passing on experience

[Michael37]

31 minutes ago, Mama Etna said:

This thread is a good read.  It highlights why I detest anglo israelism.  It is another heresy that tries to replace Israel.  It is also very anti semitic.

How would you feel about a person of Franco-Germanic-Anglo-Saxon ethnicity with a lineage that is documented and traceable back to King David? 

I know such a person very well and it is not so strange that such descendants exist given the intermingling of blood-lines over the centuries. 

[Starise]

38 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

How would you feel about a person of Franco-Germanic-Anglo-Saxon ethnicity with a lineage that is documented and traceable back to King David? 

I know such a person very well and it is not so strange that such descendants exist given the intermingling of blood-lines over the centuries. 

For me it isn't a negative view of descent, it's the ideas attached through gnostic occult belief tied to such sometimes assumed descent. Especially if it comes from a story that says Jesus had a wife and she bore Him children.

[JohnD]

My, my. What a touchy subject.

Replacement theology is garbage. Romans 11 clearly shows that rather Inclusive Theology is what is going on, and that Jewish branches that were broken of for unbelief can be grafted back in if they do not persist in unbelief. Notice no other branches have to be broken off for them to be grafted back in. Replacement theology is untrue. In Messiah, Gentile Branches  can be grafted into the Hebrew Vine.

Romans 9:1–6 (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Up to verse 6 Paul was speaking repeatedly specific about physical Israel. Then he turns a corner indicating that not all physical Israel is spirit Israel. Otherwise what I highlighted in bold makes no sense.

Romans 2:28–29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

He is not a spirit Jew who is one in the flesh. This circumcision of the heart dates back as far as:

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Also in contrast:

Jeremiah 9:26 (KJV)
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

And the contrast between spirit and flesh:

Ezekiel 44:7–9 (KJV)

7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

A physical Jew is still a Jew in the flesh (Romans 9:6 still refers to them as Israel). And to them pertain the covenants up to the New Covenant. The Abrahamic (for example):

• God blesses those who bless them and curses those who curse them
• The Holy Land is their birthright
• Etc.

They are the chosen / elect of God on Earth. 

Spirit Jews / Israel are the chosen elect of God from Heaven and the Jerusalem above is the mother of us all (Galatians 4:21-31). 

Philippians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

For me it isn't a negative view of descent, it's the ideas attached through gnostic occult belief tied to such sometimes assumed descent. Especially if it comes from a story that says Jesus had a wife and she bore Him children.

The shed blood of Jesus covers all genetic bloodlines. Beyond that Divine Governance glorifies God as the nations are healed of all that corrupts, deceives, and exploits them.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 

  

[Marilyn C]

On 1/3/2023 at 12:41 AM, Starise said:

I hear this term a lot either for or against certain views of the church as it pertains to Israel. 

To further muddy the waters we have authors writing books that further confuse the issue in making claims that really don't fit the bible.

This post is an effort to better understand what the bible actually says based on all the texts we have on it.

I am beginning with thoughts on who "Israel" is. Is it a country or a people, or both? 

Knowns- The Jewish people are God's chosen people and as a nation they are referred to as Israel. Do we have an agreement so far?  This is present tense. The bible clearly says the saved Gentiles are  " grafted" into the body of believers. They never  REPLACED God's chosen people.We as Gentiles were ADDED to the group of saved.

 

Hi Starise,

In Romans 11 we read of the Gentiles being grafted in TO CHRIST. They are NOT grafted into Israel. We read of the `root` Christ who is holy, nourishes and supports us. Israel is not holy and cannot nourish or support us.

`For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

And some branches were broken off, and you being the wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches.

But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. `(Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Christ is the `root` that is holy, nourishes us and supports us. 

 

[Starise]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Starise,

In Romans 11 we read of the Gentiles being grafted in TO CHRIST. They are NOT grafted into Israel. We read of the `root` Christ who is holy, nourishes and supports us. Israel is not holy and cannot nourish or support us.

`For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

And some branches were broken off, and you being the wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches.

But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. `(Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Christ is the `root` that is holy, nourishes us and supports us. 

 

I never said  the Gentiles were grafted into Israel, or if I did this was not my intention. Here is what I said which you quoted.

 

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The bible clearly says the saved Gentiles are  " grafted" into the body of believers. They never  REPLACED God's chosen people.We as Gentiles were ADDED to the group of saved.

 

[Alive]

Its simple to me when looked at as simple principles.

Peoples set apart by God for His purposes.

Abraham was called out from and set apart for…his seed in the natural became a people set apart for God’s Purpose.

Later as foretold the gentiles are grafted into the set apart group, not to become jews, but to be included with ‘set apart ones’, for God’s Purpose. Of the two there is one. Jews do not become gentiles nor do gentiles become Jews. We are all one in that we are all, now of the elect…called out.

This is the baseline Paul established when reflecting God’s will and Plan. All are Abraham’s seed by faith, but not according to flesh.

Everything else needs to be seen from this baseline.

[David1701]

44 minutes ago, Alive said:

 

Its simple to me when looked at as simple principles.

Peoples set apart by God for His purposes.

Abraham was called out from and set apart for…his seed in the natural became a people set apart for God’s Purpose.

Later as foretold the gentiles are grafted into the set apart group, not to become jews, but to be included with ‘set apart ones’, for God’s Purpose. Of the two there is one. Jews do not become gentiles nor do gentiles become Jews. We are all one in that we are all, now of the elect…called out.

This is the baseline Paul established when reflecting God’s will and Plan. All are Abraham’s seed by faith, but not according to flesh.

Everything else needs to be seen from this baseline.

Yes: in the New Covenant, the Lord has made one new body, out of the two old ones (Jews and Gentiles).  This body is called "the body of Christ" and comprises all those who are saved, whether formerly Jews or formerly Gentiles.

[Alive]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

Yes: in the New Covenant, the Lord has made one new body, out of the two old ones (Jews and Gentiles).  This body is called "the body of Christ" and comprises all those who are saved, whether formerly Jews or formerly Gentiles.

Yup---Abraham looking forward by faith and we--since the Cross--are looking back by faith. The thing is, though, as I see it, that Paul is also making a distinction between the fleshly seed of Jacob and the rest of the ethnos and carrying that distinction into the future. I believe that although we are One 'In Christ' and 'In Christ' there is neither Jew nor Gentile--there yet remains a place for the distinction in another context. That context being certain promises to Abe, Isaac and Jacob that have yet to be fullfilled in the earthly realm. Both are true and both are very real.

I suppose that this is where confusion comes in...not seeing this distinction. All of it teaches us that there is only one mediator between (all men) and God and that is Christ.

I also believe that the "throne of David" is both symbolic and a reality in the earthly realm into the future. I do not know how it all works out, but this is my current thinking. There is simply too much in the OT historical record connected to specific promises and a chunk of Land. I think the New Earth will reflect these things.

I reserve the right to be wrong wholly, or in part.

Some of this is my thinking that 'Eden' will be restored and the original commission to multiply and fill will be realized. I believe that is why the universe is so large. We, who are the sons of God, are going to be very busy managing and teaching.

;-)