Will the Day of the Lord come as a thief, or will there be signs first?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I'm not sure scripture supports the idea of 3 comings. So I think the rapture doesn't count as a coming. Although for those who consider 3 comings,  I guess that solves the problem. Is there a verse that calls the rapture a coming? Also,  what do you mean about stages?

Paul calls the rapture a coming:

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Classical pretrib may call this a coming only to the air,  so then can call His coming to Armageddon the "second coming."

Others say this is the "first stage" of the second coming.

I prefer to just stick closely with the scripture. Since Paul called the rapture a coming, so do I.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul calls the rapture a coming:

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Classical pretrib may call this a coming only to the air,  so then can call His coming to Armageddon the "second coming."

Others say this is the "first stage" of the second coming.

I prefer to just stick closely with the scripture. Since Paul called the rapture a coming, so do I.

Interesting. I think you're right. I've never really thought about the concept of 3 comings before,  but I must say it sounds logical. I've never heard a sermon about it,  but that doesn't mean it's not scriptural. As long as there's no passages that specifically say there are ONLY 2 comings or that his return at the end of the tribulation isn't his 2nd. So are there verses to support that? Is it just Church tradition that has always assumed there were only 2?

[Keras]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul calls the rapture a coming:

Many Prophesies call 'Coming of the Lord', a judgment/punishment by fire. Isaiah 66:15-17   It will the terrible Day of the Lords wrath, when He will actually SEND fire to destroy His enemies. Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1. Malachi 4:1 & 3

No one will be removed out of it, we must prove our faith by trusting in the Lord's protection: Psalms 46:1-3, Psalms 91, 23, +

Actually; Pauls Prophecy in 1 Thess 4:15;17, does refer to the glorious Return of Jesus. He is saying that the desecration of the Temple. Daniel 9:27, must take place before the Return.  

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think you are giving far too much weight on the 2 Thes. 2 passage. I believe what you you think is a rebellion is actually the departing of the church. It is what must come first.

I wonder if your theory would change if you did not use that passage?

Why would I not consider every bit of evidence available? 

Are you saying I should ignore some evidence? 

I get that 2 Thess 2:1-8 is a real problem for pretrib. Not only does the passage have to be rearranged but terms must be redefined into definitions the terms never meant.

I give the exact weight for the total mass of the passage; Paul says there are two signs that precede the coming and the gathering: rebellion and revealing. 

So yes. There are signs before the Coming of Christ and the gathering of us to Him.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why would I not consider every bit of evidence available? 

Are you saying I should ignore some evidence? 

I get that 2 Thess 2:1-8 is a real problem for pretrib. Not only does the passage have to be rearranged but terms must be redefined into definitions the terms never meant.

I give the exact weight for the total mass of the passage; Paul says there are two signs that precede the coming and the gathering: rebellion and revealing. 

So yes. There are signs before the Coming of Christ and the gathering of us to Him.

It's not a problem for pre-trib. It is a problem for all other 'tribs. I think there is good evidence in the passage to show that the "departing" is the rapture that must come first. I don't remember, but chances are good we have been over that passage before.

Quote

Paul says there are two signs that precede the coming and the gathering: rebellion and revealing. 

No, the two signs, when they are past, show people that the Day of the Lord (not the rapture) has begun and they are IN IT.

ONE of the two signs must come first, before the other sign. It is the departing that must come first.

Back up to Paul's first letter and we can easily see that in Paul's mind it is the rapture or gathering that must come first, THEN the Day of the Lord can begin. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Interesting. I think you're right. I've never really thought about the concept of 3 comings before,  but I must say it sounds logical. I've never heard a sermon about it,  but that doesn't mean it's not scriptural. As long as there's no passages that specifically say there are ONLY 2 comings or that his return at the end of the tribulation isn't his 2nd. So are there verses to support that? Is it just Church tradition that has always assumed there were only 2?

It is quite like what John wrote in Revelation 1: "I john, in THE tribulation..."

For some reason, translators refuse to translate the "the" in that passage, although it is there in every Greek text.

ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ:  in THE tribulation

I can guess that they all have been calling the 70th week "the tribulation," so they refuse to call what John was in, "the tribulation."

He came once: ALL agree on that.

He is going to come as shown in Matthew 24 and Revelation 19, to STAY - to set up His millennial kingdom. Most believe that.

He is coming before the tribulation to get His bride. Some believe that.

I count THREE comings.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It's not a problem for pre-trib. It is a problem for all other 'tribs. I think there is good evidence in the passage to show that the "departing" is the rapture that must come first. I don't remember, but chances are good we have been over that passage before.

We have. In order for this to be the departing as pretrib says the word in the text means; apostasia, or even aphistemi, would have to carry the meaning 'leaving from one place to go to another'. It does not. Apostasia is revolt. Aphistemi is an ideological 180° about face. 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, the two signs, when they are past, show people that the Day of the Lord (not the rapture) has begun and they are IN IT.

That day, is the return of Jesus and the gathering. No believers are in the Day of the Lord. We are all rescued before the wrath begins.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

ONE of the two signs must come first, before the other sign. It is the departing that must come first.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"

 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Back up to Paul's first letter and we can easily see that in Paul's mind it is the rapture or gathering that must come first, THEN the Day of the Lord can begin. 

Nope. If that were the case, and apostasia is 'departing from one place to go to another', then the departing would happen before the departing. 

You say the departing must come before the beast is revealed and the rebellion occurs. But you also say 'rebellion' is the departing. That's logically untenable. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

We have. In order for this to be the departing as pretrib says the word in the text means; apostasia, or even aphistemi, would have to carry the meaning 'leaving from one place to go to another'. It does not. Apostasia is revolt. Aphistemi is an ideological 180° about face. 

That day, is the return of Jesus and the gathering. No believers are in the Day of the Lord. We are all rescued before the wrath begins.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"

 

Nope. If that were the case, and apostasia is 'departing from one place to go to another', then the departing would happen before the departing. 

You say the departing must come before the beast is revealed and the rebellion occurs. But you also say 'rebellion' is the departing. That's logically untenable. 

No, the departing before the departing is nonsense. Paul was talking about the Day of the Lord or the start of God's wrath. The departing must come before wrath. That makes a lot of sense.

Quote

for it will not come

Do you see what you just did? You highlighted a myth! You highlighted words that Paul never wrote. These words were added by translators! Many people form their theories from this passage on added words. King James did us no favors on this passage. First in verse 2 they missed the timing of the Day. They did not think it was "at hand" or about to come—they thought it HAD come and they were IN IT.

Then all translators add words as if in verse 2 the Day was about to come, not had come.

Some words have more than one meaning, and the meaning can change over time. Take our English word, paradigm. Para means close together like two lines parallel, or paratroopers marching in lines. Digm means  to show or reveal. Together this word should mean, bringing two things up close and next to earth other to show their similarities or differences: to compare the two. Today the meaning has drifted far from that.

You should know, Apostasia is a compound word, with apo and stasia. From stasia we get our English word, "stationary" or not moving.

Do you know what Strong tells us about Apo?

1. of separation…
1a. of local separation, 
1b. of separation of a part from the whole

1bi. where of a whole some part is taken
1c. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
1d. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1di.  physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

In other words, apostasia COULD mean, from its separate words, a group of people taken out of a larger group and moved somewhere else, a distance away, and it happen so fast, those left behind were stationary.

A very similar Greek word is used for divorce, where one of the two separates - goes away.

Did you notice that in verse 3b, the man of sin IS revealed?
Did you notice that in verses 6, 7, and 8, the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining that revealed is "taken out of the way?"

Therefore, logic tells us that in verse 3a, the restraining power has been "taken out of the way." That does not seem to fit people just leaving, or falling away. Anyway, could evil (people falling away) restrain evil (the man of sin being revealed)?

On the other hand, just who are what IS that restraining power? Did you notice in verse 6 that Paul said, "now you know?" Why would Paul write, "now you know," unless he had just giving that information away in what he had just written: previous words or sentences? In fact, Paul DID tell us what that restraining power is, but did it in a veiled way. I think He wrote, "now you know," so the readers would back up and read it again and again until they found the answer.

We can only guess why Paul wrote this passage the way he did. My guess is, he was concerned if his letter was intercepted and read by Romans. He wrote it so they would not have a clue. But he wrote it so those that had read his first letter could understand. This is only my guess.

If people back up and read it again, and understand that the departing fulfills the theme of the passage, His coming and the gathering, then they understand the power holding back the revealing until the proper time is the Holy Spirit working through the church that is suddenly "taken out of the way." 

Then Paul wrote with parallelism. 

Verse 3: the restrainer gone, so the man of sin is revealed.
Verse 6:  something is restraining so the revealing is at the proper time.
Verses 7 & 8: The powers of darkness are working, but the restrainer will keep holding back the revealing until the proper time, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.
 

Paul could have just written: no, the Day of the Lord has not come and you are not in it. It is still future.

What he did write: when people see first the significant departing (Paul assumes all will recognize it when it happens)—THE departing—that must come FIRST, then they see the revealing, all will then know that the Day has come and they are IN IT.

This agrees with John in Revelation: by the time people see the man of sin enter the temple and commit the abomination, they can know THE DAY has already started and they are IN IT. (The Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal in chapter 6, while the abomination will happen in chapter 11.)

I suspect this is the passage Peter had in mind when he talked about Paul's writing.

It seems many people equate "the Day of the Lord" with the rapture, as if they are two ways of saying the same thing. Always remember, the Day of the Lord comes with wrath and fierce anger. (Isaiah 13). That does not FIT Paul's rapture.

Paul wrote that the rapture would come FIRST, then the start of the DAY would follow immediately after. I like to say the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

We could ask, WHY would Paul include the Day of the Lord in His rapture passage? Then after the day, talk about God's wrath? It is because the rapture will trigger God's wrath. Both Rosenthal and Van Kampen, the two men that began the pre-wrath theory, wrote that the rapture and the Day will be "back-to-back events." I believe they WILL be back-to-back events, or be very close to it. I know someone who says the 6th and 7th seals will be opened on the same day.

Finally, I don't believe there is going to be a significant "falling away." I believe Paul meant a significant DEPARTING as in the rapture. I think the church will continue to grow right up to the rapture. When someone does "fall away," two get born again.

[Dennis1209]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:03 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

The problem lies in that people don`t realise that the word `day` refers to two things depending on the context.

Day - Hebrew. `yowm,` meaning a 24 hour day, and a season or space of time.

         Greek. `hemera,` meaning a 24 hour day, and a period of time.

 

Now God`s word says that the Day of the Lord (time period) will come to those in darkness as a thief but NOT to the believers who will be encouraging each other as they see the day approaching.

`But you, brethren, are not in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. ` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

`but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

Then there is the specific day of the Lord when the Lord returns in great power and glory.  with His angelic army. It is then that the sun and moon grow dark and there is a great earthquake. (Joel 3: 10 & 11)

 

 

Good morning, Marilyn,

I get excited in anticipation just thinking about the harpazo. Yes, those are two separate and distinct events, and I genuinely believe the Resurrection and Rapture are closer than many realize. I want to discuss some thoughts about our snatching away to be with the Lord forever. Will those to be snatched up have any advance notice?

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Wherefore ^lcomfort one another with these words. [emphasis added]

The above highlighted are audible verbal commands to prepare yourselves for the event. Biblical precedence is those not spoken to hear a sound but cannot hear or distinguish words. Therefore, this advanced communication is for only those affected. Perhaps those to be left behind will listen to something like clasps of thunder. Many will realize this was the Rapture, it was true, and they were left behind.

I suspect the harpazo will not be a secret, but the world will know millions suddenly vanished. I have my thoughts on how government and leaders will explain this away, and I believe Matthew 24:4-11 addresses this deception.

The trumpet of God: As we know from the Bible and military history, a trumpet signals or communicates something, an announcement in advance to act upon, to prepare yourselves, make ready, and assemble yourselves.

It is interesting to ponder: If we had some advanced warning, would Christians gather and assemble themselves as the body of Christ and the bride at their local community churches?

I sincerely believe this is the terminal generation, and we do not have long for the answers.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning, Marilyn,

I get excited in anticipation just thinking about the harpazo. Yes, those are two separate and distinct events, and I genuinely believe the Resurrection and Rapture are closer than many realize. I want to discuss some thoughts about our snatching away to be with the Lord forever. Will those to be snatched up have any advance notice?

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Wherefore ^lcomfort one another with these words. [emphasis added]

The above highlighted are audible verbal commands to prepare yourselves for the event. Biblical precedence is those not spoken to hear a sound but cannot hear or distinguish words. Therefore, this advanced communication is for only those affected. Perhaps those to be left behind will listen to something like clasps of thunder. Many will realize this was the Rapture, it was true, and they were left behind.

I suspect the harpazo will not be a secret, but the world will know millions suddenly vanished. I have my thoughts on how government and leaders will explain this away, and I believe Matthew 24:4-11 addresses this deception.

The trumpet of God: As we know from the Bible and military history, a trumpet signals or communicates something, an announcement in advance to act upon, to prepare yourselves, make ready, and assemble yourselves.

It is interesting to ponder: If we had some advanced warning, would Christians gather and assemble themselves as the body of Christ and the bride at their local community churches?

I sincerely believe this is the terminal generation, and we do not have long for the answers.

Hi Dennis,

yes, the excitement and anticipation of actually seeing the Lord and being gathered together, changed. Absolutely amazing, wonderful and humbling.

As to `shall we hear, ` I believe that Christ the Head, by His Holy Spirit will be stirring our spirits. Thus, we will come together in small groups, (Heb. 10: 25) as the larger ones of man`s organizations will by then not believe in the rapture. (2 Thess. 2: 3)

The `shout, the voice and the trumpet,` I believe will only be `heard ` by those tuned to the Lord`s Holy Spirit.

As to the world hearing, I don`t believe so. In 2 Thess. 2: 9 - 12 we read of God sending a strong delusion that they should believe the lie of Satan`s signs and lying wonders. 

When you are `gone, ` Dennis, how many people will look for you? Maybe a couple of neighbours will think you went on holiday, or visiting family or not miss you for a while. We are not so important in people`s lives as we think. Also, remember that people are missing all over the world everyday, and people are travelling, and moving house, and migrating etc etc. 

It`s the same for all who are raptured, not many people will be concerned for the world will be in such a state when Russia comes down to attack Israel, that they`ll think WW 3 has started. 

Just my thoughts, there, bro.