The End of this Age

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

So, all references to the "coming" of Christ in the NT refers specifically to the end of the Tribulation when the King returns to earth for the MK.

What you are saying here is not correct. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. You don't consider the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet to be the same, do you? Once I figure out what you believe it will be easier to communicate.

Frankly, it seems quite impossible to be able to say anything about WHEN any of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments will be, or if they are sequential, or overlap.  We just don't know.  And my comment about the "coming of the Lord" IS correct because the OT prophesied about just TWO advents of the Messiah, so every reference to the "coming of the Lord" in the NT would obviously be the Second Advent.

They all had the OT to read.  Paul preached from the OT and proved that Jesus was the promised Messiah.  Everyone was aware of what the OT prophesied about the Messiah, so "coming of the Lord" is an obvious reference to the Second Advent.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

There are five more comings of Christ that I am aware of.

1. The barley harvest, 2. The wheat harvest, 3. The first fruits of the fruit harvest, 4. The fruit harvest and 5. The second advent. 

OK, now please explain each one of these, with Scripture.  When did or will Jesus "come back" at these 4 harvests?  I've never heard of any of that.  I would like to know.

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, OneLight said:

Really?  The fact that Jesus came to die for our sins and we have salvation only through Him, and He never changes, doesn't include the MK in your eyes?  I'd rethink that if that is the case.

This isn't about possibilities.  Of course ALL living humans are accountable and are free to believe or reject the gospel.  Including the MK.  

This is about what I call circumstantial evidence;  only mortal unbelievers will populate the MK.  Rev 16:9,11 says that "men refuse to repent" in light of the severity of God's wrath.  These are among those who will be in the MK, being ruled with a rod of iron.  Does that sound like fun?  Not to me.  There will be a very high level of resentment and continued hatred towards God.  And the OT explains what happens to nations that don't come to Jerusalem annually.  They will be punished.  So some nations will openly be in rebellion.  And at the end of the MK, there will be world wide rebellion and all are killed by fire from heaven.  The very next thing is the GWT judgment, which is for the unbelievers.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

I invite you to not be deceived.  The Bible is quite clear enough.  No need for any "spiritualizing" so you can claim what you want.

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

1 Cor 15:23 says "those who belong to Him", which is obviously all the saved, will be resurrected "when He comes", which is a prophetic reference to the Second Advent.

So, if there will be any conversions during the MK, why doesn't the Bible make that clear.  And if there will be, how can 1 Cor 15:23 be correct?

This verse speaks to the specific act of resurrection at the Parousia, not salvation in general. During the Millennium, 

Is. 4:2 In that day... 3 the one left in Zion and the one remaining in Jerusalem shall be called holy...

Can't be holy without being redeemed.

[FJK]

Just a thought coming to mind as I read through this thread: 

 

Keep in mind that everything Christ, God, presents to us, everything he does for us and our redemption, Satan will counterfeit and present to us in a manner that will lead us astray and toward him and away from God.

 

A counterfeit is a deception, a lie about what it is, cleverly designed to fool us into accepting it as real if we are not constantly on guard against it.  Satan is the father of lies.

[The Light]

40 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Frankly, it seems quite impossible to be able to say anything about WHEN any of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments will be, or if they are sequential, or overlap.  We just don't know.

We can know. There are things in the Revelation that require common sense to understand. I've found that if you put aside all things that are commonly taught and read EXACTLY what the Word says it explains itself. Use the markers that are provided as guideposts and don't draw conclusions that break these markers. I'll just give you one for now.

1 Thes 5

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

We are not appointed to wrath. So anyone that has the Church going through the wrath of God is not using the guidepost that is provided.

40 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 

 And my comment about the "coming of the Lord" IS correct because the OT prophesied about just TWO advents of the Messiah, so every reference to the "coming of the Lord" in the NT would obviously be the Second Advent.

They all had the OT to read.  Paul preached from the OT and proved that Jesus was the promised Messiah.  Everyone was aware of what the OT prophesied about the Messiah, so "coming of the Lord" is an obvious reference to the Second Advent.

Here is another guidepost, and you have already mentioned it.

1 Corinthians 15

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Every man in his order. First fruits, afterward they that are Christs at His coming.

Revelation 14

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here are 144,000 first fruits. You need to apply the order. Out of time, have to go

40 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, now please explain each one of these, with Scripture.  When did or will Jesus "come back" at these 4 harvests?  I've never heard of any of that.  I would like to know.

Out of time. I will answer later today.

[DeighAnn]

Do not be deceived by any man. 


Do these two things match/fit together?  or are they 'opposites'?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26 KJV

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Maybe that doesn't separate the two groups very well.  How about here?

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Romans 8:13 KJV

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


ALIKE OR OPPOSITES?
"This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die." John 6:50 KJV

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


ALIKE OR OPPOSITES?
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51 KJV

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" Mark 9:45 KJV

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

LIFE OR DEATH 
GOOD OR EVIL 
SAVED OR UNSAVED
HEAVEN OR HELL 
FIRST RESURRECTION OR 2ND DEATH

NOT COMPLIACATED

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:36 KJV

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

THAT IS A RESURRECTION

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

THAT TOOK A RESURRECTION

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

THAT REQUIRES A RESURRECTION

NOTICE - Jesus  GOES to prepare a place.  NOT RETURNING AT SECOND ADVENT

When He comes - it is NOT as LORD and KING, but as HIMSELF

And He RECEIVES to Himself - NOT angels gathering from heaven and earth


Where does this take place?  in Heaven  not on the earth


 So PETER was raised up to heaven to be with Christ in heaven. 

WHAT IS THAT?  A RESURRECTION

and with what body are we resurrected?  the spiritual body  


WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN ANYWHERE IS WE ARE  raised A SPIRIT without as body.

EVEN IF THAT DOESN'T FIT WITH SOMEONES THEORY that can't possibly be true on any level


How many different ways are we given these truths?

"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." John 6:58 KJV

can both those groups fit under this?  
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The resurrection of the righteous, the resurrection of the saved is DIFFERENT than the resurrection of the dead in LOTS OF WAYS.  

The when is different, as the saved follow Him - the unsaved wait for His return

There where is different as the saved go to heaven - the unsaved go to hell

The first resurrection is different in that those of the first resurrection go to heaven and never die again, don't face the 2nd death
whereas
NOT of the first resurrection go to hell and still face the 2nd death after resurrection


Those spiritual bodies resurrected to heaven don't receive any corruption from the earth 
while
those spiritual bodies that go to hell do receive corruption IN HELL.



  

 

[Revelation Man]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

That is a 'vision'?  Really?  Do you know what is written?  YES,

I rest my case.  THE SEALS have been opened.  You know it, I know it, EVERYONE KNOWS IT.  

Basically NO ONE sees the sees as open but a few who can't put the symmetry of the book of Revelation together, literally no one sees the seals as open. This reminds me of libs who say all sorta things like men can be women, yea its not right, but they say it so authoritatively, and act like everyone agree with what must be a factoid, but alas it isn't sister, you and most others here are not called to Prophecy, I have been for over 37 years. Yet you know it all, and will not listen to your eldered brothers and sisters. I do not get it. 

The book of Revelation is simple, God placed it there Himself, he gave it to Jesus who gave it to John, via Visions and the spoken word of angels. Jesus in Rev. 1 gives John a look at Himself in all of his Glory and says write the "Things You See" (Jesus in his glory), "The Things Which Are" (The Church Age) AND "The Things Which will be Hereafter" (The 70th week end which bring Judgments AFTER the things which Are Church Age).

These are not hard concepts at all, they are very, very simple, even a 5th grade child can understand that the things coming AFTERWARDS (70th week) can't be the same time as the things WHICH ARE (Church Age). But since you and others can not understand God's TIMELINES nor his Rapture which is Pre Trib you get everything confused. The Light understands the timing of te Rapture but sadly that is about it, he is confused on most everything else, when I see this I think NOT CALLED TO Prophecy and WILL NOT LISTEN TO THOSE who are.

No one here will be able to say Lord I didn't understand, because I gave you the answers. TBH, He will probably have forgotten about our shortcomings because He only sees Jesus blood, but you guys will see, boy, was I wrong, and Revelation Man tried to tell me. Now George and a few others here are mostly spot on, but most are all over the place. Humble yourself as I did 7 years ago, I had been a preacher 30 years and when I had my hear attack and God slowed me down, I prayed why is the Church so confused on End Time Prophecy Lord, we are in the end times and in Daniel yu said we would be shown all of these things in the very end times, but we have 100s of different interpretations, WHY Lord? And the Holy Spirit was like "You guys already know it all Ron".

THAT HUMBLED ME, I stopped knowing it all, now since I started ASKING God, Lord what does this mean, instead of listening to other men, (good and great men of God no doubt) I do have the answers. A lot of my former understandings were correct, but mostly the ones that I just accepted even though they confused me were WRONG, like the 144,000, God does not specifically CHOSE a certain number, we should intuitively know that. God also said He saved 7000, so I was searching and praying how can 7000 and 144,000 be correct when God says in Zechariah 13:8-9 that He is going to save 1/3 of the End Time Jews !! And I know that there are 10 million Jews living in Israel and 15 million world wide, so 3.5-5 million Jews come back to God via Jesus their Messiah. So, logically the other two numbers have to be CODES like The Women is a CODE for All Israel who repents in Rev. 12. Then I saw how God used numbers in the Old Testament to relay info, then I saw how the Book of Revelation has 404 verses and 289 have Old Testament Verbiage, or in other words you have to understand the Old Testament to understand the Book of Revelation. 

So, God's numbers are used everywhere, the 7 Spirits and 7 Eyes simply means God SEES AL and is EVERYWHERE, simple concept right  7 = Divine Completion. In Rev. 2:10 God tells Smyrna they would have tribulation 10 days, we 10 = Completion thus that simply affirms what Jesus says in John 16:33 ALL TIME on earth is troubles for the Church, because we are not of this world and thus world hate Jesus so it will also hate us. Then we have the 7 Headed Beast with 10 Horns. The 7 = Divine Completion of Israel's punishment, by 7 Empires, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the coming Anti-Christ who therefore is Head number 7, and he ARISES amongst the 10 which come out of the 6th Head which was basically Rome, which covered all of Europe, so the 10 simply means the E.U. Reunited COMPLETELY. So, the 7 Heads and 10 Horns COMPLETES God punishment Divinely (7) by Him and Completely (10) via the E.U. 

The E.U. is in Blue, the E.U. currently has 7 year Agreements under the European Neighborhood Policy (ENP) (look it up) with Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Libya. (All seen in BROWN BELOW). Now read Daniel 11:40-45 it is a play by play of the Anti-Christ conquering these nations known as Israel and THE MANY in Dan. 9:27, and Dan. 8:25, and in the Dan. 11 verses they are called MANY COUNTRIES, and he conquers everyone except Ammon, Moab and Edom, know where that is? That is the Petra/Bozrah area where Israel flees unto, so he can not conquer that area, BUT WHY? Because God protects Israel Himself !! Like Rev. 12 says. So, I painted you a picture of end tie events, read Dan. 11:40-45 and THE BELOW is what comes from it.

Now lets look at WHY God says the 10 (E.U.) above arises out of Head of the Fourth Beast below. Who the 7th Head or Anti-Christ rules via an election because they give freely their power unto him (Rev. 17:12). See Rome below 117 A.D.

Do you know understand why the E.U. is said to come out of the Fourth Beast? When they conquer al the nations shown in Dan. 11 they will look just like the old Fourth Beast on a map, they will cover every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline, THIS is why it says Rome conquers ALL THE LAND, because the land being spoken of is ONLY the 7 Headed 10 Horned Beast area of the Mediterranean Sea Area, only Rome and the E.U. will rule every square inch of the Great Sea which Daniel saw (The Mediterranean Sea). So, I know all this, but I can't understand the much simpler Seals timing? These things like the Seals are simple sister. You just refuse to see factual rebuts to your arguments/debate points.

We see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 and in 4:1 we see Jesus blowing the so called Last Trump, its only named that because the Last Trump ENDED the Harvest ever year. We are Jesus Harvest. Thus EVERYTHING AFTER Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER, Jesus says it in Rev. 4:1. We see the Church in Rev. 5:9-10, its not even debatable they came from ALL Tongues, Nations, Peoples etc. and they say they are REDEEMED by Jesus, well Jesus doesn't Redeem Angels does he? Its THAT SIMPE. The Raptured Church is in Heaven, despite your understandings, BEFORE the Seals are ever opened and NO ONE goes to Heaven before the Rapture save Moses and Elijah. 1 Cor. 15 clearly states this, the DEAD are only raised at the same time as those LIVING (within mili-seconds).

So, what are the Seals? What did a Wax Seal do? Ever though about this sister? Usually Kings placed 3 Signet Wax Seal on a Message to ensure it had not been read, if they were broken the King knew the message had been breached, of course, thus the messenger was killed. Of course God shows His Judgment is Sealed DIVINELY by 7 Seals. Look at the picture below.

So, ANYONE who thinks opening just one or two Seals brings ANY JUDGMENTS are simply missing the KNOWN CONCEPT by those living 2000 years ago, the Decrees could not be read until the 7th Seal was off the Message !! God is giving us a Judgment Decree here, each Seal is NOT a Judgment, people confuse this because Jess prophesies to the Church in Heaven in Rev. 6 as he takes off each Seal he foretells what the coming 42 months of God's Wrath will look like, the first 5 Seals are about the coming Anti-Christ, who can only go forth when the 7th Seal is opened.  The 6th Seal is Jesus telling about God's coming Wrath (DOTL). It also can not come to pass until the 7th Seal is loosed, you know why? The Scroll can not be unrolled until all 7 Seals are off. This is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 where the Trumpet Judgments start, the Wrath of God is contained entirely in those 7 Trumpet Judgments, thus Rev. 10 now makes sense, when the 7 Thunders sound time will be no more [as we know it under Satan). 

In Seals 1-5 Jesus foretells of the Coming Anti-Christs actions over this 42 month period. He 1.) Conquers 2. Brings War/Takes away the fake Peace he brought 3.) His wars create Famine as most wars do 4.) His tyrannical rule brings Death/Sickness and the Greave, of course. 5 He also kills those who come to Christ AFTER the Rapture, thus the Martyrs are new converts.

Seal #6 is Jesus pointing towards God's soon to come Wrath just like Joel did in Joel 2:31, he points to a coming chaos (Asteroid Impact) that causes the Sun and Moon to go dark and much of the earth to burn with fire...BUT.......Like Joel, its a Prophecy, unlike Joel's prophecy of 2500 years ago, this one will come to pass in mere days or hours after Jesus utters these things in Heaven, when he opens the 7th Seal, this is why Heaven is SILENT, this is a sad not joyous day in Heaven, billions of people will be killed. This is why the little book John swallowed in Rev. 10 was both Sweet and Bitter. Judgment must come, it is sweet that we will move on to live with God forever but billions of people being killed is also bitter. Thus as the 7th Seal is opens and everything starts happening, see Rev. 8, the Asteroid hits, only then is Satan cast to earth and the Anti-Christ allowed to go forth conquering. Thus those who understand this know the Seals are Prophesies, NO KING could read a decree with even one seal still on it. All the Seals must be taken off before God's SEALED UP Divine Judgments are loosed. Seems not many can understand why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 when its evident, the Wrath of God only starts with the 7 Trumps, the Seals UNBINED God's Sealed Judgment Scroll. He is painting a picture for us. 

Let's take a man with many birthday gifts, he has placed them in a closet with 7 Locks on it. He invites his friends over to see his Birthday Gifts. As he unlocks lock #1 he excitedly tells them about a leather bound bible, as he unlocks lock #2 he tells them about a beautiful harmonica. As he unlocks Seal #6 (lets jump ahead) he tells his friends about a nice suit.......QUESTION......Has his friends seen any of the Birthday Gifts yet? No, only when the 7th lock is taken off can  they see the Gifts inside the locker, LIKEWISE, only when the 7th Seal is opened will we see the Decrees of God's Judgments. When the guy opens the 7th lock he needs not say anything, he just opens the door, likewise, nothing needs to be said as the 7th Seal is opened, Judgment is at hand, thus Jesus says NOTHING. Ever notice in Rev. 8 the Trumpet Judgments are readied for sounding by 7 Angels? Ever notice in Rev. 15 the 7 Vials of Rev. 16 are readied for pouring out by 7 Angels? NOW NOTICE, no Angels READY any Judgments via the 7 Seals !! Because they ARE NOT Judgments, the only Seal God's Judgments !! 

I am just showing you sister you are nor even close to understanding these things, but you refuse knowledge from you elders in Christ. God is trying to show you, the question is can you listen, we can all speak, but I had to learn to listen to God, even after 37 years. 

 

God Bless, this is only meant as a hint, take a look within. I am trying to be honest with you. 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

This isn't about possibilities.  Of course ALL living humans are accountable and are free to believe or reject the gospel.  Including the MK.  

This is about what I call circumstantial evidence;  only mortal unbelievers will populate the MK.  Rev 16:9,11 says that "men refuse to repent" in light of the severity of God's wrath.  These are among those who will be in the MK, being ruled with a rod of iron.  Does that sound like fun?  Not to me.  There will be a very high level of resentment and continued hatred towards God.  And the OT explains what happens to nations that don't come to Jerusalem annually.  They will be punished.  So some nations will openly be in rebellion.  And at the end of the MK, there will be world wide rebellion and all are killed by fire from heaven.  The very next thing is the GWT judgment, which is for the unbelievers.

Does your circumstantial evidence take into account that humans don't live to be 1000 years old and that new people will be born and populate the earth?  Doesn't look that way to me.  It seems you take the mindset of those who refuse to accept Christ and assign the same to all who will be born during that time, unless you believe nobody will be born or die during the MK.

[OneLight]

45 minutes ago, FJK said:

Just a thought coming to mind as I read through this thread: 

 

Keep in mind that everything Christ, God, presents to us, everything he does for us and our redemption, Satan will counterfeit and present to us in a manner that will lead us astray and toward him and away from God.

 

A counterfeit is a deception, a lie about what it is, cleverly designed to fool us into accepting it as real if we are not constantly on guard against it.  Satan is the father of lies.

That would be true if we did not have the Holy Spirit.   I do believe that those who are truly Christs will not be fooled, only those who do not have the Holy Spirit will follow such a lie.  Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 give me reason to doubt it's possible to deceive the true believers.

For those who are not saved, yes, they will look to the AC with wonder and amazement, accepting his lies.