Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Your closest friendnt]

15 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Which Christians already on the Throne ? Nobody is on the Throne with Jesus now even Abraham is awaiting rapture in paradeiso.

You are quoting Revelation 3:21 which in the original Greek it says the same as in the NIV.  

3:21 To the one who is victorious,

 I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as

I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The Key word is victorious and not Overcomer...

Besides this why do you want to argue what the scripture says...

Jesus is telling to the believers in the Church of Laodecean in Revelation 3:19-21  

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Jesus is telling that this will happen during their life time..while they are still living...as their reward. 

What does it mean when Jesus said that? 

What is to sit with Jesus on his Throne?  

This is the question we need to understand...what is the benefits of that reward...I said benefits, perhaps this is not the right word...

[Your closest friendnt]

30 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Which Christians already on the Throne ? Nobody is on the Throne with Jesus now even Abraham is awaiting rapture in paradeiso.

The issues raised in your post are not part of the topic..and they do not seem to be relevant to the issue at hand.  But really we must study all relevant scriptures and not just say things like that in the face of other scripture..this is Jesus giving a message to John for the church in Laodecea.

Is not open for discussion in this thread...ask the original poster...with his permission...because to deal with your questions we will need a few pages. 

 

[R. Hartono]

14 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The issues raised in your post are not part of the topic..and they do not seem to be relevant to the issue at hand.  But really we must study all relevant scriptures and not just say things like that in the face of other scripture..this is Jesus giving a message to John for the church in Laodecea.

Is not open for discussion in this thread...ask the original poster...with his permission...because to deal with your questions we will need a few pages. 

 

The issue is about the manchild taken to the Throne which is Jesus, not the saints.

The saints Will be taken to heaven at the rapture :

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by R. Hartono

[Marilyn C]

Christ`s Victory over Satan`s 4 fold strategy. (Rev. 12: 9)

 

Satan, adversary. `Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.` (Zech. 3: 1)

Christ overcame Satan by God`s Word.

`Then Jesus said to Him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.” (Matt. 4: 10)

 

 

The Devil`s power over death. `him who had the power of death, that is the devil.` (Heb. 2: 14)

 Christ overcame the devil`s power through His own death on the cross. 

`He(Christ) Himself shared in the same, (flesh and blood) that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.` (Heb. 2: 14 & 15)

 

 

The Serpent of Old, deludes. `And he (serpent) said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, “You shall not eat from every tree of the garden?”...You will not surely die…`(Gen. 3: 1 & 4)

Christ overcomes the Serpent`s lies.

`These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.` (Rev. 3: 14)

 

 

The Great Dragon devourer. `And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her child as soon as it was born. ` (Rev. 12: 4)  

Christ overcame the Dragon by giving life. `I am the way the truth and the Life.` (John 14: 6)

[Selah7]

@Vine Abider @AdHoc  

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

- Revelation 12:5 (KJV)

This verse refers to Christ's first and second advents.  The first took place at His birth in the little town of Bethlehem—this is the man child.  The second advent happens at the 7th trump when Christ will come to rule all nations with a rod of iron as the King of kings and Lord of lords.  

So who is it that overcomes him in the following verse and who is the “him”?  (hint: It’s that ol’ dragon of old—Satan).

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

- Revelation 12:11 (KJV)

When Satan and his fallen angels are cast out onto the earth, those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them.  In Jesus Christ, we have power over Satan.  Not only that, we have God’s protection. 

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

- Revelation 9:4 (KJV)

Now what is that “word of testimony” in verse 11?  It is the “they” being delivered up—the Elect—when the Holy Spirit will use their mouth! yeah, the Gospel will be heard by the whole wide world when the Holy Spirit takes over! 

And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

- Mark 13:10-11 (KJV)

s e l a h

Edited April 14, 2023 by Selah7

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

To give objectors the easiest path, I tried to keep the argument down to a multiple choice - "Yes" or "No". Let's apply it to your view. A woman is in view. Verses 1 and 2 show her to be both woman and "sign". These verses place her in heaven. They place a crown on her head and her feet resting on the moon. Her clothes are the sun. The question is then:
Was Mary ever in heaven before the birth of her Son? Answer NO!
Is Mary a "sign" or is she real. Answer. NO! She is real
Did Mary wear a crown of stars - ever? Answer. NO!
Did Mary ever wear the sun as her clothes? Answer. NO!
Did Mary ever rest her feet on the moon? Answer. NO!

Now, if every answer is NO!, the the "sign", or woman, whichever one you choose, CANNOT be Mary. But what if we ask the same questions of New Jerusalem;

Is New Jerusalem a "sign"? YES! She is, at the same time, 1. a woman, 2. a wife, 3. a city, 4. a mother, 5 a tabernacle. She cannot be all those things literally at the same time.
Is New Jerusalem Heavenly but comes down to earth. YES! (Rev.21:10)
Is New Jerusalem mother of "us all" (Israelite and Christian)? Yes! (Gal.4:26)
Is New Jerusalem fitted to rule ( a crown is for ruling)? YES? (Rev.22:5)
Is New Jerusalem clothed with gold - the nature of God? YES! She has the glory of God (Rev.21:11)
Is New Jerusalem partially made with the Church? YES! - The walls. Is the Church made to rule the lessor light - the moon
If New Jerusalem is "Mother of us ALL" (Gal.4:26) is she mother of Jesus? NO! The woman is taken out of the man.

If the above be true, what then stops us from declaring, with reasonable certainty, that the "sign" of Revelation 12 is New Jerusalem?

New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22 is a "sign" of God's councils completed. You have a "companion meet for Jesus", you have a House for God, you have someone in the image and likeness of God, and you have something to rule the earth. But New Jerusalem is not ready in our age because Israel is cut out for unbelief. The Olive Tree is New Jerusalem in the Church age. In the Messianic age (the Millennium) the Church is chastised (outer darkness). So she is depicted by the Woman of Revelation 12. Only the Overcomers are in view. Only by Chapter 21 is she consummated.

Good morning, AdHoc,

I am getting a little confused about your thinking; too many birthday candles, I guess. Last August, when they spent the entire day lighting my birthday cake candles, the International Space Station reported that the entire state of Tennessee was ablaze. 😊

The main subject of Revelation chapter twelve is the “woman.” Revelation 12:14-17 makes it crystal clear that the woman can only be Israel. Replacing “the woman” with Mary, New Jerusalem, or anything else makes no literary sense to me.

I see verses 1-2 as a metaphor, symbolic of God’s chosen people Israel. Every biblical footnote to this “woman” I have seen, the Bible explains itself, references Genesis 37:9. The book of Revelation references more OT books than any other NT book. In Revelation 12:1-2, can an OT scripture be given for the woman supporting anything other than Israel?  

The 24 Elders seen in heaven with crowns, who or what do they represent? I submit 12 + 12, the gates and foundation of New Jerusalem. 

[Selah7]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:03 PM, Vine Abider said:

However, it is also promised by Jesus that overcoming saints will also "rule the nations with a rod of iron" in Rev 2:27.

'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'—as I also have received from My Father;

- Revelation 2:27 (NKJV)

In the verse above, I don’t see that the overcoming saints will “also rule the nations with a rod of iron.”  It is Christ who will do this.

s e l a h

[Selah7]

32 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

The main subject of Revelation chapter twelve is the “woman.” Revelation 12:14-17 makes it crystal clear that the woman can only be Israel. Replacing “the woman” with Mary, New Jerusalem, or anything else makes no literary sense to me.

Yes.  The woman in this verse is “Israel” —not to be confused with Mary who brought forth the “man child” Jesus.

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

- Revelation 12:13-14 (NKJV)

 s e l a h

Edited April 14, 2023 by Selah7

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Where in the Bible the saints are taken to the Throne ? 

@Vine Abider

Revelation 14:1-5

[Dennis1209]

53 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'—as I also have received from My Father;

- Revelation 2:27 (NKJV)

In the verse above, I don’t see that the overcoming saints will “also rule the nations with a rod of iron.”  It is Christ who will do this.

s e l a h

I also suspect King David will be in the chain of command.