Eternal Salvation – From the Perspective of Life

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Sure there is, and one day He will show us what is 100% true in an instant!  In the meantime we can only grope around and see if we can find that pure Tree of Life.

This is what you said:

My thought is there is such an understanding which reconciles verses from both camps pretty doggone well.

Since both camps are diametrically opposed, I don't see how there would be any reconciling both camps from any verse.

Absolutely God will show us the TRUTH.  Many will be surprised.  

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This is what you said:

My thought is there is such an understanding which reconciles verses from both camps pretty doggone well.

Since both camps are diametrically opposed, I don't see how there would be any reconciling both camps from any verse.

Absolutely God will show us the TRUTH.  Many will be surprised.  

I suspect we will ALL be greatly surprised and amazed in that day! 

Anyway, I see good potential here: 

>the Non-OSAS branch believes in salvation through Christ alone, but that salvation can be lost from a believer's lack of diligence after initial salvation

>the OSAS branch believes in salvation through Christ alone and that salvation can't be lost, regardless of a believer's diligence after initial salvation

>another branch believes in salvation through Christ alone and that salvation can't be lost, yet the Judgment Seat of Christ occurs which brings accountability for what the believer does after initial salvation (which will be the topic of the new thread - if anyone's open & interested in exploring this further . . .)

[Mr. M]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When Jesus said recipients of eternal life, which is when a person becomes a believer (Jn 5:24) they shall never perish (Jn 10:28)

No, He did not.

He said that they must hear His Voice to know Him.

John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

John 10:

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

If you knew His Voice, you would not take these two verses out of context to support a man made doctrine of OSAS. It is wonderfully convenient doctrine, why would anyone reject it? Unless they know the Truth. No one can give you eternal life by telling you about Jesus. You must receive this directly from Him by way of a deeply personal relationship.

John 8:

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 

35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 

36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

43 Why do you not understand My logos? Because you are not able to listen to My logos. 

45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 

There are many who believe,

until they hear a deeper Truth.

John 6:

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Anyone who knows the Truth easily discerns the partial Gospel that you are teaching. For eternal life is not simply found in the believing, but in the abiding, and the overcoming. Learn the Full Gospel Truth, and be set free from doctrines of men.

1 John 2:

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 

25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

THIS is eternal life.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

How do you come to know someone? By listening to someone else talk about them? By reading about them in a book?

John 10:

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 

15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Mike Mclees]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

oh, ok.  I guess you don't have an explanation for the 2 most clear verses on eternal security.  Got it.

This is my answer which  I gave from page 14 and still today across the board.

One has all of the promises as long as he believes and remains in it. If any turns back from his faith and belief, will not enter into Heaven. One must confess his sin and repent! You need to repent! 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said: 

When Jesus said recipients of eternal life, which is when a person becomes a believer (Jn 5:24) they shall never perish (Jn 10:28)

No, He did not.

Yes He did.  But please tell me what you heard Him say in each verse.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

He said that they must hear His Voice to know Him.

John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Not in v.24 He didn't.  No mention of knowing Him.  But, believing, yes.  "whoever believes HAS eternal life".  Did you hear that?

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

This verse is about the resurrection, not about believing and possessing eternal life.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

John 10:

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

v.27 is a description of WHAT His sheep do, or ought to do.  It's a statement of policy, not reality.  There are many examples in Scripture of believers who weren't following Him.  

v.28 is THE clearest statement in Scripture about eternal security.  Jesus gives eternal life (on the basis of believing in Him per Jn 5:24) and the result is:  they shall never perish.  Did you hear that?

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

If you knew His Voice, you would not take these two verses out of context to support a man made doctrine of OSAS.

I've taken nothing out of context.  It is you that creates the false notion that there are conditions on believers before they shall never perish.  There are NO WORDS in v.27 or  v.28 that indicate that one must "follow" in order to never perish.

One will never perish based on the FACT that Jesus gave them eternal life.  That isw v.28.  Nothing else.  Eternal security.

As to eternal security being "man made doctrine", well, yes, Jesus WAS fully man.  So at least you are partially correct.  

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

It is wonderfully convenient doctrine, why would anyone reject it?

Can you explain to me what Jesus taught by the words "I give them eternal life and they shall NEVER perish" if not eternal security?

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Unless you know the Truth. No one can give you eternal life by telling you about Jesus. You must receive this directly from Him by way of a deeply personal relationship.

This is adding to Scripture.  John 5:24 tells us plainly;  "whoever believes possesses eternal life".  And will NEVER come into condemnation.  

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

John 8:

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

In v.31 and 32, Jesus was telling SAVED people (Jews who believed in Him) they will know the truth if they abide in His Word.  This is about spiritual growth.

In v.33 the "they" refers back to the beginning of the context, in which the word refers to the unsaved Jewish leaders.  It does NOT refer to the ones who believed in Him.

In fact, v.33 is an interruption by the unsaved Jewish leaders.  Jesus just told the believers the truth would make them FREE, and the unsaved leaders butted in and they were NEVER been in bondage.  What a croc!  I guess they forgot all about Egypt and Babylon, etc.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

There are many who believe, until they hear a deeper Truth.

When John wrote "believed in Him" that was his signature way to indicate people were saved.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

John 6:

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

These idiots were not the ones in John 8.  Please don't try to conflate contexts.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Anyone who knows the Truth easily discerns the partial Gospel that you are teaching.

What do you mean by "partial"?  What am I leaving out?

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

For eternal life is not simply found in the believing, but in the abiding, and the overcoming. Learn the Full Gospel Truth, and be set free from doctrines of men.

OK, find me any verse that says what you are saying.   I absolutely do not believe what you are saying.  Abiding is about fellowship and service.  John 15

And abiding and overcoming are efforts of men.  They have NO PLACE for getting saved.  They are works, and works don't save anyone.  We are saved by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

1 John 2:

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

This is about fellowship.  read ch 1 carefully.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

THIS is eternal life.

Right.  Read John 5:24 on how to possess eternal life.  There is nothing about abiding, or overcoming.  In fact, these words apply ONLY to those who are saved already.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

How do you come to know someone? By listening to someone else talk about them? By reading about them in a book?

John 10:

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 

15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I think I've pointed out enough for you to chew on.  I hope you do.  I think you are rather confused about the gospel.  You've inserted works into it, which won't save anyone.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Mike Mclees said:

FreeGrace said: 

oh, ok.  I guess you don't have an explanation for the 2 most clear verses on eternal security.  Got it.

This is my answer which  I gave from page 14 and still today across the board.

One has all of the promises as long as he believes and remains in it.

If true, there has to be a verse that says this.  Please provide.

1 hour ago, Mike Mclees said:

If any turns back from his faith and belief, will not penter into Heaven.

If true, there has to be a verse that says this.  Please provide.

If there are no verses that say these things, they are just opinions and contrary to the Bible.

The idea of continuing faith in order to be saved is refuted clearly by these 2 verses:

John 3:18 -  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you know what "have not believed" means?  It means "have NEVER believed".

That is who will be condemned.  Those who never believed.

Consider the second soil, who "believed for a while, and in time of temptation, fell away".  Did he ever believe?  Yes.  So he won't be condemned.

[Mr. M]

14 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I think I've pointed out enough for you to chew on.  I hope you do.  I think you are rather confused about the gospel.  You've inserted works into it, which won't save anyone.

No, I simply have not been indoctrinated into your school of thought, nor will I ever be. I have chewed on it, and spit it out. The only thing I have inserted is the verses in context that you leave out to form a doctrine based on one verse here, one verse there. line upon line, precept upon precept...

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I am afraid that you have been taken.

[NConly]

Covenant as in New Covenant

a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

No, I simply have not been indoctrinated into your school of thought, nor will I ever be.

I have provided Scriptural support for what I believe.  Where is your evidence?

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

I have chewed on it, and spit it out. The only thing I have inserted is the verses in context that you leave out to form a doctrine based on one verse here, one verse there. line upon line, precept upon precept...

That is your choice.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I am afraid that you have been taken.

Your fears are misplaced.  You haven't provided ANY evidence for your beliefs.  I would sure be fearful if I couldn't defend my views from the Bible.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, NConly said:

Covenant as in New Covenant

a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action

Excellent!!  Jesus died for all our sins, and will save those who believe in Him for it.