Eternal Salvation – From the Perspective of Life

[NConly]

2 hours ago, Yes, and said:

A child does not make himself or herself a child. He or she just is, and the parents bequeath their riches to the child. The child has absolutely no say in this.

I do believe God give each a choice to enter into the NC it is called free will and one has the ability to reject or accept it is not a will.

[Mike Mclees]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

If they are born-again with His life in them, those in 2 Thess 2:3-4 will be disciplined, but not lost (which is the 3rd option).

(BTW NOTE TO ALL - let's stop accusing others of "cherry-picking" verses. This does little to promote effective fellowship in love for our fellow believers!)

I'm sorry but this is not just friendly debate because you are teaching a false doctrine that is miss guiding Gods people down a dangerous path. You teach a disrespect for God and His word saying we can live in flagrant sin. Jesus Died for our sins but we will also die for His sake and for righteousness. I will fight you till judgment day.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Mike Mclees

[Mike Mclees]

I have study articles in my bible which I have not opened until now so I am quoting from my "age of antichrist" study.

Both church history and the predicted falling away at the end time warns believers not to be naive about widespread corruption of the Gospel. At some point in church history, rebellion against God and his word will reach astounding proportions. The day of the Lord will bring Gods wrath on those who reject His truth (1st Thes 5: 2-9)

  Are we not seeing these things happen?    

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Mike Mclees

[Mr. M]

7 hours ago, Yes, and said:

We are to rest in faith in the work of Christ, not to argue with one another over man-made doctrines, or place a burden on one another to do certain things to ensure our salvations. Eyes front, soldiers.

The discussion should not be centered on ensuring salvation,

but on living a life that is pleasing to Him.

Psalms 40:

7 Then I said, Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.

See also Hebrews 10:5-10. The issue that I have tried to address on numerous occasions is the not so subtle attempt to remove obedience from the equation. I know this for a fact, because every time I have posted threads on being obedient servants, it is the "saved by grace alone, and OSAS crowd that tries to shout me down with "that is works based salvation or that I am trying to earn salvation". No, this is sound apostolic doctrine. The issue at hand is how can you be obedient if you don't listen? When you focus on this as losing salvation, you are not just ignoring NT doctrine, you are ignoring Him.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

Hebrews 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven.

I am not trying to define the repercussions of being disobedient, because judgment is the Lord's. On the other hand, how are we to separate willful disobedience from rebellion and wrath? Why would anyone focus their minds on the notion of forfeiting salvation at all, if their desire and delight is to do God's Will? It's like teaching what a believer can get away with since he has a get out of jail free, golden ticket to heaven. This is how we eliminate doubt about the nature of the doctrine.

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

I know who your two verses are speaking to and what do they have to do with OSAS?

Quite a naive question.  John 5:24 shows unambiguously that believers HAVE (possess eternal life.  John 10:28 shows unambiguously that recipients of eternal life (Jn 5:24 - believers) shall never perish.  Very clear.  No ambiguity.

10 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

This is an example of how you twist scripture.

Please show in the context that Jesus was speaking to unbelievers and either verse has no relevance to eternal security.

10 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

You need to address those who were believers but fell away as in 2nd Thess 2: 3-4. the great falling away. Can you say they are still saved? !!

Yes, I can.  Jesus SAID SAID SAID that those He gives eternal life (believers from John 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why do you say they aren't "still saved"?  What verse says unambiguously that salvation can be lost?  I know there aren't any.  

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Here is where you are most in error...you refuse to acknowledge context because you cannot.

Interesting false judgment, anyway.  You have no idea what I cannot do.  Not even close.  

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The giveaway is in bold below.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 

Do you hear that? "and now is! This is being born again, passing from death to life NOW, after conversion passing from death to life. When? Just as it is written "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God".

Of course.  So, what's your point here?

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Now here is where He connects to the resurrection and judgment...

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 

29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

In the first statement, the spiritually dead are born again. What do you think He meant when He said "let the dead bury the dead"? I started recognizing and hearing the Lord's Voice clearly about 35 years ago, and now I converse with Him throughout every day. In fact, I have come to understand the true purpose of the Scriptures, they are topics of discussion with the Lord, to grow in the knowledge of Him. When one is hearing His Voice, they do not spend much time debating these doctrines of men. This is the judgment...

What judgment are you thinking of here?  You're not clear.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Now I will indulge the question you keep asking, "what scriptures say you can lose your salvation". I never answered because the question is totally illogical! Why would the apostolic doctrine teach you how to get lost? How to lose salvation?

How naive.  If salvation could be lost, it would be a VERY BIG DEAL and every believer would certainly WANT TO KNOW what would result in loss of salvation.

Your questions aren't even logical.  If there were ever a way to lose salvation and end up in hell, of course every believer WOULD want to know.  You are just kidding yourself.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, why aren't you interested in how to lose it?  Don't you care?

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Full disclosure, here's how to lose it, if you desire.  For anyone not interested in working out their salvation in fear in trembling, the way is easy, and clear...remain in disobedience.

What verse says unambiguously that salvation can be lost?

The verse you mention is a reference to spiritual growth.  Salvation includes 3 tenses:

Past tense salvation:  saved from the penalty of sin.  Justification

Present tense salvation:  being saved from the power of sin.  Sanctification

Future tense salvation:  saved from the presence of sin.  Glorifiation

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Colossians 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.

God's wrath is on sin.  Everyone sins.  Just read Romans 3, 5, 7.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The testimony of the scriptures is clear, to access this eternal life, you must die!

Silly notion.  Access to eternal life is through Jesus Christ and faith in Him.  And gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.  But I suppose you think there is a verse that teaches this.  So I'll move on.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

And so you apparently think this "sacrifice" in Rom 12:1 means death?  Why did you miss the word "LIVING" just before sacrifice.  So the verse doesn't support any of your claim.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

If someone wants to forfeit their salvation? Hook up! Take a lover! Live in fornication and find out what the future holds. Indulge in this world's idolatry.  One thing is certain, there will be no access to the tree of life.

Got it.  Sin will cause one to lose salvation, per you.  OK, please provide the verse that says this because I don't believe you.  

The Bible says that Jesus died for ALL sins, not just some, or many, or a few.  ALL sins.  So how can ANY sin result in loss of salvation since Jesus died for all of them?  I'll be you can't answer this and will just ignore it.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Revelation 22:

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

This speaks of eternal rewards, that will be only for those who were faithful and obedient during their life on earth.

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

The real question here is what is the context for "outside".  Outside of WHAT?  Do you know?  I do, but I'm asking YOU for what you think it refers to.

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

I'm sorry but this is not just friendly debate because you are teaching a false doctrine that is miss guiding Gods people down a dangerous path. You teach a disrespect for God and His word saying we can live in flagrant sin.

I wish all these Arminians (I'm NO Calvinist!) would just stop with this nonsense of what those who believe in eternal security supposedly think.  Like we are defending sin or something stupid like that.

Why do Arminians seem to totally ignore the "other side of the coin", that God disciplines His children painfully (Heb 12:11)?  If a believer thinks he will "get away" with living for the flesh, he/she will be miserable, whether Arminians can see their pain or not.  They will lose out on blessings during their life on earth, and eternal reward in eternity.  

It seems what bothers Arminians the most is the fact that sinful believers will get to heaven, because those Arminians have no concept of biblical grace.

6 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Jesus Died for our sins but we will also die for His sake and for righteousness. I will fight you till judgment day.

Actually, what you are "fighting against" is Jesus Himself, who plainly and unambiguously taught eternal security.

John 5:24 - believers possess eternal life.  This means from the MOMENT they believe.

John 10:28 - Jesus gives the gift of eternal life.  The result is recipients shall never perish.

Those who read these verses and continue to believe that salvation can be lost are deceived beyond reason.  The verses are too clear to miss, unless one simply doesn't want to accept the truth of eternal security.

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

I'm sorry but this is not just friendly debate because you are teaching a false doctrine that is miss guiding Gods people down a dangerous path. You teach a disrespect for God and His word saying we can live in flagrant sin. Jesus Died for our sins but we will also die for His sake and for righteousness. I will fight you till judgment day.

It's grieving to read those words . . .

I think what you stated here is a strawman (as that's not my stance at all), but I believe the bigger question between us is this:  Can we just put this aside bro, have the Lord's table together and celebrate our oneness in Christ?

[Yes, and]

9 hours ago, NConly said:

I do believe God give each a choice to enter into the NC it is called free will and one has the ability to reject or accept it is not a will.

I like your response (truly) even as I would not so much disagree as I would suggest it does not fully take into account too much else of the Word which some would use as proof texts in arguing for the Calvinist's TULIP. Personally, I prefer living in the mystery.

Anyway, the reason I like your response is because of your first three words, "I do believe."

Look, I'm certain what I believe is not absolutely correct even as I can at the same time live in strong conviction about some things, but knowledge and faith are of two different orders (or so I believe—and even here, when discussing "knowledge" I have found it helpful to understand (at least on a very elementary level) the limits of knowledge, the philosophers' approaches to knowledge, and the scriptural takes on it. There are different words and definitions for "knowledge," like there are different words and meanings for "love.") And yet, it seems some here want to fight on the basis of what they consider unquestionable knowledge, and the desire to fight betrays an orientation which does not at the end of the day bear witness to the love of our Lord. They think they are doing the Lord's will (and maybe in some way they are), but so were the Ephesians at the time John wrote the Revelation. And look at what Jesus had to say about them. Yoiks! (Speaking of needing to repent!)

And...I'm still waiting for anyone (anyone?) who has not contributed to this thread to tell us they have been edified and encouraged by it.

PS I noticed while trying to understand you a bit so as to better communicate, you said you're in TN, but love NC (if I read correctly). We're in SW VA, so if you ever find yourself along I-81 PM me. We can commune together over a meal and drink.

[Yes, and]

10 hours ago, Mr. M said:

And yet, the discussion continues. Will you also cherry pick

quotes from my response?

I'll pick just the following and say I am entirely sympathetic to it:

10 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Doctrines of men do not come simply from cherry picking verses, but isolating topics for discussion, separating them from the full testimony of the apostolic doctrine. I was unfamiliar terms like "soteriology, hamartology, eschatology" before I came to on line forums four years ago. I have never been a theologian, but one who has pursued a relationship by diligently seeking His presence in my life. Can you really separate salvation from reconciliation, justification, sanctification, glorification? This has done profound damage. Many even quote "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" as if this is the Way. This is error!

To me, you are here touching on the deeper issue(s), the ones which (among others) yield dissension and combativeness, thereby removing our eyes of faith from the only Person who has the power to save.