Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think we are mostly in agreement on this issue. I'll throw out one clarification, though: I see those that came out of the great tribulation as those who were alive at the time when the great tribulation hit (I think we may already be there or close to it), and they are removed at the end of the tribulation  (3.5 years) and before what follows, the wrath of God.

AAhh! I see your thinking. You divide the wrath of God during the 3.5 years from Armageddon!

I read it thus;
The sixth seal is said to be the wrath of the Lamb (Rev.6:12-17). The next verse (7:1) says; "After this ...". That is, what follows in 7:1-8 is after the wrath has come in Chapter 6 but before the Remnant is sealed. So the wrath of Chapter 6 could not be Armageddon for this comes after the 3.5 years. The Jewish Remnant is sealed to protect them from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation (9:4). But 7:9 again says "after this ..." and the scene is in heaven and the innumerable company has been through the Great Tribulation. This makes the Tribulation OVER. So the wrath must be the 3.5 years INCLUDING Armageddon, though I am first to admit that Armageddon is a special "wrath" for those who come up militarily against Jerusalem.

Perhaps a minor point, but we all see it in some way. 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think we are mostly in agreement on this issue. I'll throw out one clarification, though: I see those that came out of the great tribulation as those who were alive at the time when the great tribulation hit (I think we may already be there or close to it), and they are removed at the end of the tribulation  (3.5 years) and before what follows, the wrath of God.

But one of the most important scriptures for me, regarding the "saved" is 1 Cor 3:12-15

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Bottom line to me is that "saved" is a starting point, not an ending point.

In Matthew 16 the Lord promised to build His Ekklesia, which is also the house of God (1st Tim.3:15). All Christians are building whether they heed God's instructions or not (Matt.7:24-27). Since this House is a spiritual House (1st Pet.2:4) the elements used in the building must be spiritual. A study of these elements, if we want to interpret scripture with scripture, gives the following:
Gold = the Nature of God
Silver = the saving work of Jesus on the cross
Precious Stones = the transforming work of the Holy Spirit
Wood = a human kingdom and authority
Hay = a human effort stripped of authority
Stubble = a human effort mutilated by division

The first House of God was the Tabernacle of Sinai and Shiloh. It had these elements without hay and stubble. The humanity of Christ is depicted by a special wood - Acacia. . This is a very hard, indestructible wood that has a specific gravity of greater than one. It is too hard for worms. The second House of God was that built by Solomon. It had these elements without hay and stubble and Christ's humanity was Cedarwood - for beauty. So was Zerubbabel's Temple. The last House built is New Jerusalem. It is built with Gold, Pearl and precious stones - the pearl replacing silver because all men are resurrected and the Adamic body is no more.

You will notice that the TIME set forth to build God's New Testament House is the Church age (2,000 years) PLUS the Millennial Kingdom because the House is built with men who Hades has been overcome by - men in resurrection. (The gates of hell in the KJV should read "Hades", not "hell" - Matthew 16:18). If the Church is not completed by the return of Christ, He still has 1,000 years to complete it so it is ready for "all things new" in Revelation 21. But we are all building. And those who built with unacceptable materials will be chastised for "Damaging" or "marring" God's House.

The Christian who builds with unacceptable materials will be "damaged" by the Lord. His work will face the test of fire. (Wood, hay and stubble will not survive fire). He himself will still be saved from the Lake of Fire, but experience his own fire for 1,000 years. Remember, the transforming work of getting purified gold and silver is "Refiners FIRE". And fiery trials are to refine our character and make it like Christ's (1st Pet.4:12-13).

So, the sloppy Christian (or worse - the disobedient) will still be saved from the Lake of Fire, but undergo chastisement and a refiners fire in the millennium.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The rapture just means being caught up....it happens to both groups, the dead and the living...the dead rise first, then the living...

No. Scripture says "TOGETHER with them" (1st Thess.4:17)

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Some will say, how will the dead rise, and with what body will they come...what comes up is not the same body that was sown...it is changed..that is how God describes it...all the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change comes...that means mortal puts on immortality...it doesn't matter about how far the body is decomposed...Lazarus had already begun to stink, but God still raised him up...those that sleep in the dust of the earth the same thing...the dust they were living in is changed at the Second Coming...the deal with the two prophets is there is no mention at all of their spirit returning into their body...It seems both the body and spirit is changed, as it does not say....'and the spirits of the two prophets returned back into their body and they stood upon their feet...no...it says 'the spirit of life from God entered them, and they stood upon their feet

I meant Hades and the SOUL, not the grave and the BODY. Sorry.

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

no, it says the living meet the dead who are descending down from heaven..

No. Here's the grammar.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There is no judgment in the clouds...the judgement takes place at the sheep and goat judgment...

No. The judgment of the Christians is before the Bema - a traveling throne. The judgment of the sheep and the goats is before a fixed throne - "Thronos". The judgment of the Bema is the Church, while that of the sheep and the goats is "ALL Nations" (Matt.25:32). The judgment of the Church is our individual works, while that of the sheep and the goats CONTRASTS them with "THE LEAST OF MY BRETHREN".

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Of course they were all alive on the ground before they ascended...but the living did not go to heaven....they ascended to Meet those that were dead coming down with Jesus...that is why the dead rose first so they could come down with Jesus, remember he gathers his elect from the uttermost part of heaven...which would be where the dead would have been resurrected to, plus he gathers them from the uttermost parts of the earth, which would be the living believers...but where does he gather them dead TO? He gathers them from heaven to the CLOUDS, and then the living from the earth are gathered to the clouds so both living and dead meet in the clouds and then proceed on downward to Armageddon

You have mixed the Church and Israel. 1st Thessalonians 4 concerns the Church. Matthew 24:31 concerns Israel. Only Israel are scattered to the "four winds" (Jer,49:36, Ezek.37:9). The whole context of Matthew 24:1-31 is Jewish.

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The gospel is still in effect during the tribulation...nothing changes until Christ comes...we apply it now before the tribulation and people living during the tribulation will apply it as well...the angel was not preaching another gospel...

No. The gospel is how man avoids God's wrath. Now God's wrath is come. Nothing can save man. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 call fire down on their enemies. This is retribution - not the gospel. An angel preaches the eternal gospel - God is Creator. In Romans 1:18-22 the wrath of God is revealed against men who do not hold this gospel.

 

[Still Alive]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

AAhh! I see your thinking. You divide the wrath of God during the 3.5 years from Armageddon!

I read it thus;
The sixth seal is said to be the wrath of the Lamb (Rev.6:12-17). The next verse (7:1) says; "After this ...". That is, what follows in 7:1-8 is after the wrath has come in Chapter 6 but before the Remnant is sealed. So the wrath of Chapter 6 could not be Armageddon for this comes after the 3.5 years. The Jewish Remnant is sealed to protect them from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation (9:4). But 7:9 again says "after this ..." and the scene is in heaven and the innumerable company has been through the Great Tribulation. This makes the Tribulation OVER. So the wrath must be the 3.5 years INCLUDING Armageddon, though I am first to admit that Armageddon is a special "wrath" for those who come up militarily against Jerusalem.

Perhaps a minor point, but we all see it in some way. 

Yep. the challenge I have with all of our "informed speculation", though, is that I believe it is dangerous to come up with highly specific future scenarios from scripture that comes from a dream that is mostly symbolic. My ultimate search is to understand and "know" God so to help me better interpret this sort of prophesy. i.e. when someone comes up with an explanation that does not fit the personality of the God I know, I can ignore it, just as I'd ignore an explanation of something my wife did that does not fit her personality. Ultimately my goal is not to "know" the future, but to understand God's purpose for man enough, and the prophesies enough, to know the "end times stuff" when I see it. 

For example, the world seems to have gone absolutely mad lately with the trans gender stuff, global warming, etc. And it not only makes sense, but implies we are in a certain time when one reads ths in context:

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 2 thes 2:11

As far as I'm concerned, we're there. Right now. This has never happened at such a grand scale in any time in history.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

no, it says the living meet the dead who are descending down from heaven..

No. Here's the grammar.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The problem here is where you are placing the rapture...of course if you place it pre trib then both living and dead must go to heaven...What you have is then a GOING of the Lord, not a COMING of the Lord...there is no GOING of Jesus it is ALWAYS a coming...the only mention of anyone going up is the saints, the dead first, then the living, If you place the rapture where it supposed to be at the Second Coming then you have the true COMING as he never is GOING back which you have in pre trib...the same with the word 'bring' when it says he will 'bring' those that sleep with him...when he comes all the saints will be WITH him on his way down..meaning he will be BRINGING them down with him...the problem is the placing of the rapture...if you place it pre trib then you cannot possibly have all the saints return with Jesus...the dead trib saints are only shown by Pre trib to get resurrected, but they are never caught up so they can never be part of the saints that return with Jesus, when in fact they are saints and so must return with him...the other thing with the living trib saints is that they never get immortality but are alledged to enter the MK in natural bodies...this violates the mandate that all saints must come with Jesus and it also violates the mandate that ALL the saints will be changed...ALL the saints does not mean all except the trib saints...Pre trib put a distinction between the 'church age' saints and tribulation saints by saying the only ones to get in the pre trib rapture are 'the dead in Christ' but seemingly Zechariah and Paul did not get that memo for they explicitly wrote all the saints would come...not all the 'church age' saints would come...So if Zech. and Paul and Jesus are right, which they are, then all the Old Testament Saints, all the Trib Saints, all the saints from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture would be in the number that come with Jesus...but this is impossible to achieve with Pre trib and it because they place it before the tribulation, so it is not possible to resurrect the trib saints before they have even died yet, and then of course they have no additional rapture at the  end to pick up the living trib saints...they even say only the 'dead in Christ' will be in the rapture, when scripture itself shows those that die during the tribulatin die in the Lord...but they cannot be true to even what they are saying and still have a pre trib rapture

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have mixed the Church and Israel. 1st Thessalonians 4 concerns the Church. Matthew 24:31 concerns Israel. Only Israel are scattered to the "four winds" (Jer,49:36, Ezek.37:9). The whole context of Matthew 24:1-31 is Jewish.

Here is a quote from John Walvoord Dallas Theological Seminary ...                             

"In Matthew 24—25 the expositor should, therefore, understand that the program of God for the end of the age has in view the period ending with the second coming of Christ to the earth and the establishment of His earthly Kingdom, not the church age specifically ending with the rapture. Both the questions of the disciples and the answers of Christ are, therefore, keyed to the Jewish expectation based on Old Testament prophecy, and the program of God for the earth in general rather than the church as the body of Christ. Christ’s Olivet Discourse on the End of the Age Part I -- By: John F. Walvoord  1971 President of Dallas Theological Seminary"

He literally changed what Jesus told his disciples ....Jesus said the end of the age would be when he came, not seven years before he would come...There is only one end of this age and it is at the Second Coming, regardless of whether you are a Jew or Gentile...He is making up another time frame in direct opposition to what Jesus told his disciples..And how does he do this? Here is his quote:                                                                                         
 

Quote

"Speaking to the disciples as representatives of especially the Jewish nation in the time of the end, Jesus begins in verse 15 to give them the specific sign of the end of the age which is the great tribulation (Matt 24:21). He said to His disciples, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains” (Matt 24:15–16). Here He is predicting a specific event so clear and so obvious that it will serve as a signal to Israel to flee to the mountains.

He is making Jesus into a misleader...the disciples asked him very plain questions and Jesus all of a sudden decides to make them into 'representatives of especially the Jewish nation in the time of the end...' Jesus is not talking to somebody else...he is talking to his followers...he would be absolutely misleading them by saying you are going to see this, and you are going to see that, when he knew they wouldn't even be there...Walvoord then explains why Jesus had to mislead them, because they were in no condition to receive the truth about the rapture...And here is the reason he gives as to why Jesus had to mislead them...

Quote

Christ, having taught the truth of the second coming to the earth at a time when He had not even announced the rapture of the church, which was first mentioned in John 14 the night before His crucifixion, would hardly apply a truth like this to the rapture of the church at a time when the disciples knew absolutely nothing about it. Preferable is the interpretation that the subject of the second coming to the earth is continued in verse 45 in the same strain as in the previous verses. In other words, He is still illustrating and still implying the truth of Christ’s second coming to the earth.

Right, he would hardly apply a truth about the rapture to them when they knew nothing about it..so He had to tell them they would face all this when he really knew they wouldn't...

Here is his open quote that there is no rapture at the end of the tribulation and that living saints, (trib saints) will go into the MK in natural bodies...

Quote

Pretribulationists believe that there will be no rapture at the end of the tribulation and that living saints at that time will go into the millennial kingdom in their natural bodies.

So he is openly stating we will not all be changed at the last trump, and that all the dead in Christ really will not rise...the saints that die during the tribulation die in the Lord, and in doing so he not only violates Zechariah and Paul to now say all the saints really won't return with Christ...not even the OT saints according to Pre trib as they are only resurrected but not raptured up at the end of the trib...and the reason all the saints can not come is that they place the rapture before the tribulation...if it is placed at the second coming and all the saints from all time are resurrected as it plainly states, then there is no problem with any of these scriptures...Ask yourself who was Zechariah and Paul talking about? They said all the saints...pre trib itself defines saints as followers of God in whatever time they were living...Paul was misleading the Thessalonians to think all the saints would come when he had allegedly had taught them only the 'church' would get raptured? This is all hocus pocus with words...The Old Testament saints were in Christ themselves according to Romans 11....who is the olive tree? It is Jesus Christ. Jesus said I am the true vine, and ye are the branches...We were not graffed into Israel, we were grafted into Christ...the same Christ they were partakers of..they were actually in christ before we were later grafted in. When Paul said they will be grafted in again if they abide not still in unbelief, and by this of course he means they will be grafted back into Christ, the same true vine they were cut off from because of unbelief...

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:03 PM, transmogrified said:

as resurrection and being caught up are two different things.

I don' t see that as the case.

We are all caught up into the sky.

The dead are raised to be up in the sky with Jesus.
Then the alive are also caught up to be in the sky, in the clouds, in the air.
[1 Thess 4:16-17]

We know the dead rise immortal, also the alive receive the same.

"we shall not all die, but we all shall be changed"
1 Corinthians 15:51

The gathering of the Lords army includes resurrection:

"Come from the four winds Oh breath of life,
and breath upon these slain that they may live.
And they stood upon their feet an exceedingly great army"
Ezekiel 37:9-10

"He shall send forth His angels with a great sound
of a trumpet and they shall gather together His chosen ones
from the four winds" Matthew 24:31

Anyone reading those passages and even up to
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 could have a question about alive believers.
And Paul therefore address that in 1 Thess 4:16-17.

"the dead shall rise first
then we which are alive and remain shall
be caught up together with them in the clouds..."

Which puts resurrection and being caught up directly together.
 

 

"in the clouds .... in the air"

"the armies in the sky followed Him on white horses......
and the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon
the horse, which sword proceeded from His mouth"
Revelation 19:14-21

In a good Bible, we will see 'which were' in italics in Rev 19:14
the phrase was added in, also 'heaven' many times means 'the sky'.

"the armies in the sky followed Him on white horses..."

"the appearance of them is as horses" Joel 2:4

"And the Lord shall utter His voice before His army"
Joel 2:11
 

Christ returns gloriously and resurrects and makes immortal all the righteous
to be an army behind Him as He comes down to do doom upon all flesh.

Those not caught up to be part of His army will be left,
for the birds.

"..one shall be taken and the other left,
and they asked Him, Where Lord?
And He said; Wheresoever the bodies are there will the birds be
gathered together." Luke 17:36-7

"the armies in the sky followed Him on white horses......
and the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon
the horse, which sword proceeded from His mouth
and all the birds were filled with their flesh"
Revelation 19:14-21

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"the dead shall rise first
then we which are alive and remain shall
be caught up together with them in the clouds..."

Which puts resurrection and being caught up directly together.

You can see the distinction in the two prophets...they were physically dead...then the spirit of life from God entered into them and then they stood upon their feet...the standing on their feet means they were still on the ground and had not yet ascended...it was not until they heard the voice from heaven saying to Come up Hither that they ascended...so resurrection one thing, ascension another thing...it was also true with Jesus ...he rose from the dead but was still with them for 40 days before he ascended...resurrection one thing, ascension another thing...you have to be glorified before you ascend, but this is taken care of for both groups, the living and the dead when it says we shall all be CHANGED at the same time, but the dead ASCEND first...so if the change was actually the ASCENSION then both groups would have rose at the same time...but they didn't...also in pre trib the trib saints who are alive and remain unto the (real) second coming do not get raptured meaning they also did not get changed, which also means they cannot possibly come with Jesus with all the saints, for these saints would not have any way to get up there...also it would violate what Paul said that we shall all be changed...Pre trib claims we will all be changed and then at the same time reports to us that trib saints will not be changed and also reports to us that the OT saints will only be resurrected, meaning they will only be changed, but will not ascend up to heaven, so this other huge group of OT saints will not be coming with all the saints, either, at least according to Pre trib, however all the saints will come with Jesus, not because of pre trib doctrine, but because of scripture...both Paul and Zech. said all the saints will come with Jesus, which cannot possibly be when they place the one and only rapture before the tribulation, meaning they have the resurrection occur before the tribulation saints have even died...so that is impossible because of where they place the rapture chronologically... but anyway, resurrected does not mean ascension...even according to pre trib resurrection does not mean rapture, for even though they rightfully claim the trib saints will be resurrected, they do not provide another rapture for them to ascend up...they even say the trib saints are not the church so they eliminate them before they even arrive...however the trib saints are just as much saints as anyone else...when Paul and Zech. said all the saints will come, they did not mean all the saints from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, no they meant ALL THE SAINTS, which again only shows the flaws in pre trib that it is not from God as it violates what God showed to Paul that we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye...do you see that? Pre trib does not allow for the living trib saints to be changed...VIOLATION...ALL will be changed...and not at different times, but all will be changed at the same time, at the last trumpet...pre trib has the OT saints being resurrected but they do not get caught up because pre trib alleges the OT saints are not in Christ...it is this fundamental flaw that places the doctrine outside the parameters given by God..they were the natural branches before we were even grafted in, the olive tree is not Israel, the Olive tree is Jesus and they were branches, just like we are branches...Jesus said I am the true vine and ye are the branches...it shows they were in Christ because when they are converted at the Second Coming it states they will be grafted back into the vine...well what happens when they are converted? They accept JESUS and are grafted BACK INTO THE SAME OLIVE TREE FROM WHENCE THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FROM...

[Desopixi Seilynam]

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

..then the spirit of life from God entered into them and then they stood upon their feet...the standing on their feet means they were still on the ground and had not yet ascended...

"the dead shall rise (ascend up) first
then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (caused to ascend up)
together with them in the clouds" 1 Thess 4:16-17

Both sets of people; the dead who rise, and those caught up,
end up in the air, in the clouds with Christ on the day He comes
to take vengeance.

Paul is speaking about 1 single day,
this is clear from 2 Thess 1:7-10.
Both resurrection and alive people being caught up happen on the same day, at the same time.

Paul is speaking specifically about our being caught up,
Revelation 11 is about the two prophets experience not ours.
Revelation 4:1 is an angel telling John to come up hither, not us.
There is no "rapture",
on the day of the Lord many dead are raised immortal,
and many alive are raised immortal,
and we enjoy watching the vengeance unfold.

 

To you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from the sky
with His holy angels, in flaming fire,
taking vengeance on them that know not God...
when He shall come to be glorified in His saints.
2 Thess 1:7-10

To  you who fear my name
shall the Son of Righteousness arise...
and you shall trample down the wicked,
they shall be ashes under your feet
in the day that I do this says the Lord.
Malachi 4:3-4

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Uriah]

Perhaps it would do well to remember that "saints" is also used for angels.

Jde 1:14- And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

It is the armies of heaven that will be with Him when He comes. As for the people who have died prior to that day, they will be resurrected and meet Him in the air immediately before the living saints are raptured.

Heb 11:40- God having provided some better thing for us that they without us  should not be made perfect.

This verse speaks of O.T people and for that matter, it applies to the N.T. people as well. The same thing goes for all others who passed away since.