Explaining the Clay in the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is interesting how these leaders always strove to be recognized as deity.

Roman historians wrote from earliest times that Romulus and Remus, Rome's founders, were sired by Mars. Elohim mating with human women from time to time in the past reflects both secular and biblical and Enochian history.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

. The Beast, having died and come from the Abyss will be the first man be resurrected...

Purely a non-biblical teaching on two counts: 1) neither the Bible nor the Book of Enoch ever teaches that any man was sent to the Abyss, and 2) neither do they say that the Beast will be a man. On the contrary both indicate that the Beast is a fallen angel.

[AdHoc]

11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Roman historians wrote from earliest times that Romulus and Remus, Rome's founders, were sired by Mars. Elohim mating with human women from time to time in the past reflects both secular and biblical and Enochian history.

Purely a non-biblical teaching on two counts: 1) neither the Bible nor the Book of Enoch ever teaches that any man was sent to the Abyss, and 2) neither do they say that the Beast will be a man. On the contrary both indicate that the Beast is a fallen angel.

 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them (Rev.11:6–7)

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; ...  . (Rev.13:18)

"Non-biblical teaching ... " I think not. The grammar is plain. The Greek for "bottomless pit" is "abussos" from which comes "Abyss"

[WilliamL]

Just now, AdHoc said:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; ...  . (Rev.13:18)

For the part in red, the addition of the word "a" is based upon the opinion of the translators, since there's no indefinite article in Greek.

Leaving out the "a," a perfectly acceptable alternative translation, makes the meaning quite different. 

One cannot justifiably claim the doctrine you and others do based upon a single questionable text. Two solid textual witnesses minimum are needed.

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

For the part in red, the addition of the word "a" is based upon the opinion of the translators, since there's no indefinite article in Greek.

Leaving out the "a," a perfectly acceptable alternative translation, makes the meaning quite different. 

One cannot justifiably claim the doctrine you and others do based upon a single questionable text. Two solid textual witnesses minimum are needed.

That was not the challenge. You claimed it "non-biblical". I showed it to be biblical. Rejecting the translators is another matter altogether. It takes away the basis for discussion.

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

That was not the challenge. You claimed it "non-biblical". I showed it to be biblical. Rejecting the translators is another matter altogether. It takes away the basis for discussion.

You're splitting hairs here. So my response is in kind: you did not "show it to be biblical," you only claim you did.

[AdHoc]

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You're splitting hairs here. So my response is in kind: you did not "show it to be biblical," you only claim you did.

No. Those were verbatim from the Bible. That makes them biblical. But since you call the translation into question - a translation that all renowned translators do not dispute - it is your duty to show your objection. Even if your argument against hundreds of capable translators was correct, you still have to deal with the implications of "his" (autos - Gk.) meaning "him alone".

You have yet to comment on your refusal of the word "abyss" being in all of the renowned bibles.

I await your explanation with interest.

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is interesting how these leaders always strove to be recognized as deity. Their chief problem was their deaths. What god worth his salt is mortal?

Most people do not realize this, but Satan knew a Redeemer had to come and be resurrected, so when atheists and their like point to others who claimed the exact story, and the Jesus' disciples merely copied other stories that were "OLDER" what they do not realize is the Liar Satan was merely trying to sow the seed of deceptions with lies & false claims, about an event he knew would one day come true, the Seed would bruise the Serpents head. 

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And this is where the Beast is so advantaged. He is from the Abyss, he "was and is to come", he is one of seven and will be the eighth and he suffers a mortal wound that does not kill him. To compete with Jesus you have to be (i) immortal and/or (ii) resurrected. Hebrews 9:27 says a man can only die once. Luke 20:36 says a man cannot die after resurrection. The Beast, having died and come from the Abyss will be the first man be resurrected with this capability tested in public (Rev.13:1-9). It would also explain why it was so important to the Pharisees to first guard the tomb of Jesus, and second to lie about His resurrection.

Remember now, this Scarlet Colored Beast has "no crowns" in Rev. 17 because he is under Satan and he is not a human, else he could not have been of the 7. But he has a kingdom (he's an 8th) over the Bottomless Pit. Thus we know he is Apollyon. He will arise from being locked up for 2000ish years, Israel's Destroyer, and will be called on once again to destroy Israel, but he will fail for the 7th and final time.

Lets say I am Satan. I place Principalities all over the world over cities, states, nations etc. I place Apollyon over the Mediterranean Sea Region and order him to destroy Israel, he is still under me, because as Luke 4 says, all of the kingdoms of this whole world was given unto Satan to do as he so pleased with. None were given to Apollyon, he's just a very powerful Demon under Satan. 

Apollyon tries to kill Israel off by running them int the Red Sea via Egypt, he fails, he tries to tote off the 10 tribes, he doesn't understand the 10 tribes still had SEED or men living in Judea so he fails. He enslaved Israel in Babylon for 70 years, He tried to destroy them but God used Persia and he overruled Apollyon and He thus used Cyrus to free Israel. Apollyon then used Greece and Antiochus to try and wipe out Israel but God gave Antiochus a sickness and he died and the Maccabeans fought back Greece and won. He tried to use Rome and toted Israel off in 70 AD to the ends of the earth, but in the end he failed because one day God will bring them back to Israel as the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel. Not only that, but Apollyon got locked up for nigh 2000 years and this 7 Headed Figurative Beast received a Mortal Head Wound (Rome went from a Beast to a conveyor belt of the Gospel) and the Beast System went dormant (back into the Sea so to speak).

Finally, in these end times, IMHO, after the Pre Trib Rapture, and at the midway point of the 70th week or just past that by a smidge, Apollyon is released from the pit at the 1st Woe and once again given the assignment to Destroy Israel. He will kill the Two-witnesses (only because God uses this to give us an understanding of the "timelines") and then Jesus will show up and kill the Beast, False Prophet and lock all of these Demons up, including Apollyon, back into the Bottomless Pit for his 1000 year reign. 

Thus Apollyon is of the 7 and he is the 8th (king of the pit) even though the Scarlet Colored Beast has no crowns on earth. This Beast is not the Red Dragon, that is why he is shown as Scarlet in color and not Red. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Revelation Man

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Most people do not realize this, but Satan knew a Redeemer had to come and be resurrected, so when atheists and their like point to others who claimed the exact story, and the Jesus' disciples merely copied other stories that were "OLDER" what they do not realize is the Liar Satan was merely trying to sow the seed of deceptions with lies & false claims, about an event he knew would one day come true, the Seed would bruise the Serpents head. 

Remember now, this Scarlet Colored Beast has "no crowns" in Rev. 17 because he is under Satan and he is not a human, else he could not have been of the 7. But he has a kingdom (he's an 8th) over the Bottomless Pit. Thus we know he is Apollyon. He will arise from being locked up for 2000ish years, Israel's Destroyer, and will be called on once again to destroy Israel, but he will fail for the 7th and final time.

Lets say I am Satan. I place Principalities all over the world over cities, states, nations etc. I place Apollyon over the Mediterranean Sea Region and order him to destroy Israel, he is still under me, because as Luke 4 says, all of the kingdoms of this whole world was given unto Satan to do as he so pleased with. None were given to Apollyon, he's just a very powerful Demon under Satan. 

Apollyon tries to kill Israel off by running them int the Red Sea via Egypt, he fails, he tries to tote off the 10 tribes, he doesn't understand the 10 tribes still had SEED or men living in Judea so he fails. He enslaved Israel in Babylon for 70 years, He tried to destroy them but God used Persia and he overruled Apollyon and He thus used Cyrus to free Israel. Apollyon then used Greece and Antiochus to try and wipe out Israel but God gave Antiochus a sickness and he died and the Maccabeans fought back Greece and won. He tried to use Rome and toted Israel off in 70 AD to the ends of the earth, but in the end he failed because one day God will bring them back to Israel as the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel. Not only that, but Apollyon got locked up for nigh 2000 years and this 7 Headed Figurative Beast received a Mortal Head Wound (Rome went from a Beast to a conveyor belt of the Gospel) and the Beast System went dormant (back into the Sea so to speak).

Finally, in these end times, IMHO, after the Pre Trib Rapture, and at the midway point of the 70th week or just past that by a smidge, Apollyon is released from the pit at the 1st Woe and once again given the assignment to Destroy Israel. He will kill the Two-witnesses (only because God uses this to give us an understanding of the "timelines") and then Jesus will show up and kill the Beast, False Prophet and lock all of these Demons up, including Apollyon, back into the Bottomless Pit for his 1000 year reign. 

Thus Apollyon is of the 7 and he is the 8th (king of the pit) even though the Scarlet Colored Beast has no crowns on earth. This Beast is not the Red Dragon, that is why he is shown as Scarlet in color and not Red. 

I fully agree with your first paragraph.

To your understanding of the Beast, I find it best if a just give you mine. I can more or less follow your thinking. Let's see if I can give you an alternate view that could make sense.

Satan was former governor of the earth (Isa.14 and Ezek.28). His domain, through corruption, became a chaos. God judged it and the result was darkness and immersion in water (Gen.1:2). After an unspecified time, God, who cannot look at disorder for a long time, restored the earth in six 24-hour days. On the sixth day He presented His new governor for the earth - man. This man was given the duty of "subduing" - indicating that a rebellion was still active. Satan, now faced with the loss of his domain, set out to retrieve it.

The restriction on Satan was that man, though lower than him in ability and beauty, had the authority. God's councils, which are immutable, placed the earth in the power of man. Satan could only usurp this authority by deceiving the man - which he did. Notice the grammar in Luke 4:6

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Scripture says that our Lord Jesus was tempted. If Satan's statement was not true, then scripture would have erred. It would NOT have been a temptation. So Satan's authority "is given" by men. Satan can only exercise authority through men. And so it is at the culmination of things. Satan must work through a man, or men. God restricted Himself to man, so He too must work through men. The culmination of Satan's plan is a MAN who will exercise Satan's Power for ruling the earth. The culmination of God's plan is likewise a MAN who would fully and accurately administer God's plan for the earth. The end of the last age ended with a MORAL victory of God's Man - Jesus. He refused the enticements of Satan to His great loss, but in the process set aside men's sins and overcame death.

Now, with things MORAL decided, things MILITARY must be decided. It is man versus man with their armies. Each is backed by a source of power. Both are kings. Both are resurrected. One was once king of Rome and the other of the line of David of Abraham. Both aspire to be king of the whole earth. Both aspire to be worshiped. Here is the profile of the Beast;
1. He was one of five kings, the sixth of which was reigning at John's time. Rome reigned then
2. John would life a full life and see seven such kings - all Romans
3. John would see a Roman king in his life who would reign again after John was resurrected
4. Eight is the number of resurrection and the king who "was" - "will be"
5. This king would need to be resurrected. He comes from the "bottomless pit"
6. Daniel said that this king would be a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple - a Roman
7. If he is a Roman, he comes from the Nations - the "sea" is the Nations in parable
8. If he resurrects before the White Throne he has been given to change times and laws
9. His number is the number of a MAN
10. His Name amounts to a number 666. The only Roman king this fits is Nero Caesar
11. He must be a MAN for he died. Angels cannot die (Lk.20:35-36)
12. The Beast rides the Woman. The Woman is soaked with the blood of saint who worshiped Jesus. The only persecutor of Jesus' disciples, who was a world power, is Rome
13. The Beast has seven heads, each representing a hill. The only Capital of the six world powers with seven hills is ROME

Taken together, there is a mound of evidence that the Beast, a king of Rome at John's time, will be "given" to be resurrected out of his time. The evidence points to Nero. I am aware of the evidence that the number 666 is 616 in some manuscripts. To this I say,

1. Daniel 2 affirms that God has power to do what He likes in heaven and on earth - and no one can stop Him.This makes the issue of the translation easy. Either God is a liar and He cannot do what e likes among angels and men, so we got the wrong manuscripts, OR, God is Who He says He is but He purposely allowed us to be misled for 2,000 years.

2. The removal of 2 pieces of proof from 13 does not change the other 11. It creates disharmony at worst but does not annul.

The age ends with TWO MEN. Each one lays claim to worship, loyalty and sovereignty. One will win. The other is destined for "perdition". Only a MAN can go into perdition. The term "son of perdition" was given to a MAN.

 

[Scott Free]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:28 PM, Revelation Man said:

The current European Union and the Nations in treaty with her in the European Neighborhood Policy(ENP) Agreements. 

The E.U. can not be the Ten Horns. They are helpless compared to Russia, China and India and can not muster an army capable of global intimidation of all nation. Google: PwrIndx

"Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014 shattered the long-held assumption that the European territorial status quo would not be upset via the use of military force. Yet, far from bringing Europe together, Russia's assertiveness only further deepened Europeans' profound divergences of threat perceptions, with growing disagreements among Europeans about how to prioritize Russia versus other challenges." Illusions of Autonomy: Why Europe Cannot Provide for Its Security If the United States Pulls Back - MIT

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Scott Free said:

The E.U. can not be the Ten Horns. They are helpless compared to Russia, China and India and can not muster an army capable of global intimidation of all nation. Google: PwrIndx

"Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014 shattered the long-held assumption that the European territorial status quo would not be upset via the use of military force. Yet, far from bringing Europe together, Russia's assertiveness only further deepened Europeans' profound divergences of threat perceptions, with growing disagreements among Europeans about how to prioritize Russia versus other challenges." Illusions of Autonomy: Why Europe Cannot Provide for Its Security If the United States Pulls Back - MIT

I tend to agree. The EU is impotent both politically and militarily. But there is most likely a game within a game at work here. My theory is (for I would not try to name the ten kings) that the Movers and Shakers are not democratically elected officials. In Luke 22:25 we have a verse that describes Gentile government;

25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

It says that the kings of the Gentiles are not the last instance. There are "benefactors" and that "THEY (the benefactors) exercise authority over the kings. Anybody who does even a cursory study of political power knows that a campaign to be elected costs hundreds of millions of dollars and it is the DONORS who later return for a favor  - or ten. But then there are the Rockefeller and Rothschild and other such families who never appear in the press they control, but who have the financial and political power to steer even the President of the USA. The ten kings may well be such shadowy figures.