Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19 is not the second coming

[Diaste]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:42 AM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus comes back at the end of the sixth seal, which I believe from past conversations that, you equate this with the seventh trumpet.(Please correct me if I'm wrong)

Knowing all the destruction and open demonic activity that's going on, on the earth and the peoples of the earth, during the seven trumpets,  how can a person believe scripture that says the people will be oblivious to what's going on.... that they will be marrying and building and planting and eating and drinking...... all normal everyday activities..........amidst  massive earthquakes, tsunami's, fire and brimstone, 100 pound hail stones, being tortured by demonic locusts for 5 months.... billions of people being killed...... etc etc......... etc.

It makes no sense.

I should have said. "The seals are conditions that will exist or events that will occur. The seals are an overview of the end of the age with trumps all occurring within the seals." and not, "The seals are conditions that will exist or events that will occur. The seals are an overview of the end of the age with trumps and seals all occurring within the seals."

My bad, I should probably have a 2nd cup before I write stuff. 

I see the 6th seal and 7th trump occurring in the same general time/space moment. The sixth seal reveals the signs heralding the return of Jesus and the onset of wrath, the 7th trump is when Jesus returns, the gathering occurs then, Jesus metes out the wrath of God. How close together they are I cannot say, but I don't equate them. I do believe I have said I see it as a successive/concurrence, not one for one, not equal, but not all seals first, then all the trumps either. 

About your 2nd paragraph...

Isn't all that happening as revealed by the seals as well? War, death, famine, plague mass murder and, martyrs sacrificed in the name of Jesus and for their testimony. It don't sound to me like anything is normal, even within the seals. 

I guess I have never understood this. "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left." as the people being oblivious to 'what's going on' as in, they are unaware of the many crises on the earth at the time. What they are generally oblivious to is what the crises point to, the near return of Jesus and the coming wrath. 

So it's pretty clear to me the seals reveal the entire last week right up to the impending wrath of God at the 6th seal. 

I would say the trumps are the herald of the calamities revealed by seals 2-4, before the return of Jesus and the wrath of God, which wrath is the bowls. The pressure of the trumps is meant to drive people toward the Father before the finality of God's savage wrath. 

On 4/29/2024 at 11:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus' garments are stained in Rev 19 - they are dipped in blood before He mounts a white horse and leaves heaven. This happens, as Isaiah 63:1-4 describes, where He pours out His wrath on Edom, and stains His garments with the blood of the unrighteous, treading the winepress of God Almighty. This means that He was on the earth prior to Rev 19. Jesus says He treads this by himself, there was no-one with Him, yet in Rev 19 He comes with the armies from heaven. 

 

 I think if you read to Isaiah 63:5-6 you'll see this is the wrath of God on the nations. In fact, 1-6 is a description of the coming wrath, just like in Rev 14:17-20.

But, if Jesus already destroyed the nations as in Isaiah 63 and prior to Rev 19, who is he fighting against in Rev 19 when it's proclaimed in Rev 19:19; "Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army."?

On 4/29/2024 at 11:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus' primary purpose in Matthew 24 is the gathering of the saints - this is a main theme in the bible. Both the old and new testament speak of it. And yet in Rev 19, we find the main theme is Jesus returning with His armies to wipe out the antichrist and his hordes. There is no mention of any gathering of the saints.

 

 

That doesn't mean the gathering didn't happen at, or around, or just prior to, Rev 19. If there was language that prohibited the gathering at this time that would be one thing, but there isn't. Mere omission in the narrative of a timeline does not mean any particular event didn't happen near to other events in that timeline. It's just that the focus of the narrative is on a singular event, or several events, a targeted focus at this point in the timeline narrative; it's not an impossibility for other events to occur simultaneously, in conjunction, or in a near succession. 

In other words, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

 

On 4/29/2024 at 11:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

 

The darkening of the sun moon and stars takes place after the 6th seal. This major event is not seen in Rev 19. What is seen at the 6th seal is the sun darkened, the moon is darkened to blood, the stars fall, the powers of the heavens are shaken as the sky is rolled like a scroll, a great and mighty earthquake, the tribes of  the earth mourn and hide in caves ------------------------------ THEN-------------------------- Jesus appears, breaks the blackest darkness by His Shekinah Glory, blazing in light, coming on the clouds, seated on a throne..... and then:

 

                            "And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet..... and they will gather                                              together His elect, from the four winds.... from one end of the sky to the other"

 

The Parousia is the coming of our Glorious Savior. It is the one and only Parousia. It is referred to this way 18 times in Scripture and yet, Rev  19 does not use this term.

 

See the previous. 

I see this as added details. It's like an investigation. An investigator will interview several people and attempt to gather relevant evidence from many sources to construct a complete picture. This is what Spirit does in scripture. Many times a single revealed event isn't described in every detail in single book by a single author in one or two chapters; one has to scour several books and traverse 1000s of years to find all the details.

Your not seeing contradictory statements, your seeing added details of the event of Jesus coming/return. 

The sun and the moon and the stars go out, the nations fear the coming wrath, the 7th trump sounds, the elect are gathered by the angels up into the clouds of the air, Jesus and His armies split the sky and charge into battle against the beast. 

That's not too hard to do for one with all power in the universe. No coming then return needed, not twice, just a rapid succession of events. 

Even if the term 'parousia' isn't used, it's clear Jesus is coming from one place to go to another. The armies are following Him. He's going somewhere and He was somewhere else before he was going elsewhere. So in Rev 19 He's going and coming; going out from heaven, coming to earth to the great battle, as depicted. 

 

On 4/29/2024 at 11:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

 

Satan, the beast and the false prophet know when Jesus is coming in Rev 19. In Rev 16:14-16 we see these three send out demonic spirits to gather the kings of the earth to fight Jesus in the battle of Armageddon. They know Jesus is returning for the final showdown... to fight him.

Yet.... in Math 24 we are told that no-one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' coming..... so Rev 19 can't be that coming. 

 

 

If the two events were the same.... Matt 24 and Rev 19.... there would be similar symbols.

But there is nothing about the two accounts that are  similar.

They are completely and utterly different. 

 

Not knowing the day or hour is vastly different than the ability to discern the general time. Of course they know He's coming, we know He's coming, we just don't know exactly when. We are told to watch.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come"

"Be on your guard and stay alert!"

"So keep watch at all times,"

We are also what to watch for. If we could not know the general time, why would we be told to watch and stay sober and alert? Satan and the beast know the same thing, the general time, not the exact moment. Satan, the beast and the FP are preparing for the inevitability, the war they know is coming, the war they want; they just don't know when their adversary will appear. 

 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I`m meaning that not every mention of a horse is symbolic. Jesus on a white horse with a sword out of His mouth is symbolic. And the birds feasting on the flesh of horses is real.

I agree that the sword coming out of His mouth is symbolic.

But Jesus on a white horse I believe is literal.

Just as in Jesus's first advent, He entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey.

The donkey has been historically linked with Redemption.

Was it a real donkey? Of course it was. 

Rev 19 has Jesus, on a white horse, leading the armies of heaven to battle. 

I cannot see Him blowing the battle trumpet and leading a charge..... while running.

[Dennis1209]

On 5/1/2024 at 8:02 PM, Marilyn C said:

It is when the Lord comes a second time to the earth. He comes symbolically on a while horse with His angelic army also.

Horse - power,

White - light, glory.

Jesus comes in power and great glory.

Have you ever tried to contemplate what that horse symbology represents in our finite minds? Revelation is exciting to envision and try to picture in our minds; much of it is figurative and symbolic. White can symbolize several things, depending on the context.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Revelation 6:2)

The above is generally considered the Antichrist; he is presented in military fashion and terms, and white symbolizes peace or surrender in militaries. The rider and horse are two separate entities, as are death and hell that follow. The symbolic horse is the vehicle and means of transportation and movement. Does this horse represent mechanized military technology or some spiritual equivalent?

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Revelation 19:11)

White does not represent the universal military combat symbology of a parley, peace, pause, or surrender in this verse. A gate, or portal to the heavenly dimension, is opened; even the mode of transportation is clean and pure, as with white robes, spotless.

Some use Rev. 19:11 to say, “See, there are animals in Heaven.” High Ho, Silver away… 😊

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11) [emphasis added]

The above, Ezekiel 1:5-28, and elsewhere are heavenly descriptions of spiritual modes of transportation. If these were witnessed in modern times, would it be said, oh look, a flying horse? Or would they be referred to in contemporary lingo as UFOs or UAPs?

Are people today, by the tens of millions, getting glimpses of extra-dimensional spiritual technology for a reason and purpose, namely deception? How is spiritual warfare conducted in the spiritual realm?

Seraphim and Cherubim have four and six wings and fly, as the Bible states. These are superior in rank, duties, and power to regular messenger angles. Nowhere is it said messenger angels have wings or fly on their own. In every Biblical instance, they appear as men and sometimes with their horses and chariots.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Psalm 68:17)

And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. (2 Kings 6:17)

The angel immediately sent to Daniel was delayed for 21 days. How do you delay something spiritual traveling at the speed of thought or light? Angels have spiritual bodies; there must possibly be a form of physicality and matter manipulation in the angelic spiritual realm.

I find it telling and curious, with the new official government acknowledgment, investigations, and reports, that UFOs are real and pose a danger to national security and aviation. Of all the things they could be, they are silent about anything dimensional or spiritual.

Are these investigations by people with advanced degrees and initials after their names so stupid and blinded as to dismiss every possibility and the most logical? I think not. Or is there a hidden agenda, and everything must fit the lie of evolutionary theory to set the stage?

As I have mentioned elsewhere, panspermia is becoming a popular buzzword in scientific genetics and DNA.

To quote the late Dr. Michael Heiser, “If it sounds strange, it is probably important.”

If they still had pay phone booths, I would phone home. LOL

 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I`m meaning that not every mention of a horse is symbolic. Jesus on a white horse with a sword out of His mouth is symbolic. And the birds feasting on the flesh of horses is real.

The birds in my honest opinion are symbolic also, they represent the Church. We are Feasting on those who had their way with wickedness on earth. In Matt. 24:28 Jesus says the Eagles are always where the Carcass is at. Remember, he says this right after Jesus says do not look for me in the Desert or in a Secret Store[room] then he says that verse.

Matt. 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Then he tells them where to look for him at, in the Eastern skies, this way no Jew who repented and fled into the Petra/Bozrah mountains can be deceived. Then comes the below notation)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (I think this refers to WHERE Jesus will be, but we know the Church is with him, he says Eagles as in  plural, so I think, just like in Rev. 19, the birds feasting is referring unto the Church or the Bride of Christ and at our wedding feast/super, we feast on the WICKED SYMBOLICALLY speaking)

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I should have said. "The seals are conditions that will exist or events that will occur. The seals are an overview of the end of the age with trumps all occurring within the seals." and not, "The seals are conditions that will exist or events that will occur. The seals are an overview of the end of the age with trumps and seals all occurring within the seals."

My bad, I should probably have a 2nd cup before I write stuff. 

I see the 6th seal and 7th trump occurring in the same general time/space moment. The sixth seal reveals the signs heralding the return of Jesus and the onset of wrath, the 7th trump is when Jesus returns, the gathering occurs then, Jesus metes out the wrath of God. How close together they are I cannot say, but I don't equate them. I do believe I have said I see it as a successive/concurrence, not one for one, not equal, but not all seals first, then all the trumps either. 

About your 2nd paragraph...

Isn't all that happening as revealed by the seals as well? War, death, famine, plague mass murder and, martyrs sacrificed in the name of Jesus and for their testimony. It don't sound to me like anything is normal, even within the seals. 

I guess I have never understood this. "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left." as the people being oblivious to 'what's going on' as in, they are unaware of the many crises on the earth at the time. What they are generally oblivious to is what the crises point to, the near return of Jesus and the coming wrath. 

So it's pretty clear to me the seals reveal the entire last week right up to the impending wrath of God at the 6th seal. 

I would say the trumps are the herald of the calamities revealed by seals 2-4, before the return of Jesus and the wrath of God, which wrath is the bowls. The pressure of the trumps is meant to drive people toward the Father before the finality of God's savage wrath. 

 I think if you read to Isaiah 63:5-6 you'll see this is the wrath of God on the nations. In fact, 1-6 is a description of the coming wrath, just like in Rev 14:17-20.

But, if Jesus already destroyed the nations as in Isaiah 63 and prior to Rev 19, who is he fighting against in Rev 19 when it's proclaimed in Rev 19:19; "Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army."?

That doesn't mean the gathering didn't happen at, or around, or just prior to, Rev 19. If there was language that prohibited the gathering at this time that would be one thing, but there isn't. Mere omission in the narrative of a timeline does not mean any particular event didn't happen near to other events in that timeline. It's just that the focus of the narrative is on a singular event, or several events, a targeted focus at this point in the timeline narrative; it's not an impossibility for other events to occur simultaneously, in conjunction, or in a near succession. 

In other words, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

 

See the previous. 

I see this as added details. It's like an investigation. An investigator will interview several people and attempt to gather relevant evidence from many sources to construct a complete picture. This is what Spirit does in scripture. Many times a single revealed event isn't described in every detail in single book by a single author in one or two chapters; one has to scour several books and traverse 1000s of years to find all the details.

Your not seeing contradictory statements, your seeing added details of the event of Jesus coming/return. 

The sun and the moon and the stars go out, the nations fear the coming wrath, the 7th trump sounds, the elect are gathered by the angels up into the clouds of the air, Jesus and His armies split the sky and charge into battle against the beast. 

That's not too hard to do for one with all power in the universe. No coming then return needed, not twice, just a rapid succession of events. 

Even if the term 'parousia' isn't used, it's clear Jesus is coming from one place to go to another. The armies are following Him. He's going somewhere and He was somewhere else before he was going elsewhere. So in Rev 19 He's going and coming; going out from heaven, coming to earth to the great battle, as depicted. 

 

 

Not knowing the day or hour is vastly different than the ability to discern the general time. Of course they know He's coming, we know He's coming, we just don't know exactly when. We are told to watch.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come"

"Be on your guard and stay alert!"

"So keep watch at all times,"

We are also what to watch for. If we could not know the general time, why would we be told to watch and stay sober and alert? Satan and the beast know the same thing, the general time, not the exact moment. Satan, the beast and the FP are preparing for the inevitability, the war they know is coming, the war they want; they just don't know when their adversary will appear. 

 

 

 

Revelation 12 gives us a pretty good overview of the tribulation conflict.

Satan and his followers are kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth:

"Woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.... 12:12

"And when the dragon saw that he was thrown to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.... (Israel) 12:13

"The dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Christ".... (both Jews, who keep the commandments, and Christians, who hold to the testimony of Christ).... 12:17

So we see that Satan's great wrath will be geared towards the nation of Israel first and then the Church, Christians.

God lets Satan have his way against Jews and Christians. Satan is not concerned with other earth dwellers and other religions. He is after the cream of the crop, first and foremost.  If he can annihilate the Jews and the Christians, then the earth will be his. But God always has a remnant.

Why does God allow this? To weed out true believers from fake believers. That's why we see martyrs at the 5th seal, and many more to come. 

I agree that God's wrath is the trumpet and bowl judgments. God will not share His glory with another, especially Satan. That's why Isaiah writes "The Lord alone will be exalted in that day"... Isa 2:11 ....... The trumpet and bowl judgments are the "Day of the Lord"

Satan has his day....the tribulation............... God has His day....The Day of the Lord"

The seals are Satan's wrath. 

You have the beginning of "birth pangs"

Then...... "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name".... Matt 24:9

AFTER tribulation is the Day of the Lord, the day of His Wrath....(not a literal 24 hr day)

Huge difference between tribulation 'thlipsis' and wrath 'orge'.

 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The birds in my honest opinion are symbolic also, they represent the Church.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

the birds feasting is referring unto the Church or the Bride of Christ and at our wedding feast/super, we feast on the WICKED SYMBOLICALLY speaking)

So.... Rev man.... 

I know from past conversations that you equate the armies of heaven returning with Christ as the church.

Are you now really saying that the armies that follow Jesus out of heaven on horses jump off their horses and fly in the air and answer the call of the angel to assemble for dinner? 

(I slap myself on the forehead and exclaim "good grief")

 

The Lamb's wedding feast does NOT entail feasting on the flesh of horses or people. We are not cannibals. We are not zombies. We do not have a feast on the battlefield!

The Lamb's wedding feast will take place on His Holy Mountain where He will prepare a feast of aged wine and choice meat..... a lavish banquet.

Isa 25:6

The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.

There is a huge difference between the Marriage banquet of the Lamb......

And the Great Supper of God.

[Revelation Man]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

The disciples asked Jesus in Matt 24:5-14 what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. Jesus then proceeded to mention six signs or events prior to His coming..... false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, tribulation, apostasy and preaching of the gospel to the whole world..... 

Yet, Jesus didn't mention even one of the judgments in the trumpet and bowls, which are unquestionably signs of incredible severity - burning of 1/3 of the earth population by fire and brimstone, stinging of unbelievers by demon locusts, etc.

I will finish up where I left off yesterday first. There are more like 10-12 signs, but some are in verses 24-30. Verses 7-8 are not really a part of verses 4-13, they are meant to show WHY the END IS NOT YET in vs. 6, Jesus demonstrates why the end can not be the 70 AD events (wars & rumors of wars). It is not meant to be taken as those verses are a part of the END TIMES, they are not, every verse in 4-13 is specifically about the Disciples lives, period. Then in vs. 14 we see what brings THE END (70th week) and that is the Gospel being preached unto all the world. So, that way, the disciples knew 100% they would never see the 2nd Advent of Jesus because they knew they would never reach India, China and the far Northern lands (Russia and everything over the Stepp mountains). 

Jesus told them this to stop them from rushing back to Jerusalem when they heard of the [fake] christ being at hand, and when the 70 AD wars kicked off in like 67-70 AD. The churches would have no doubt followed the diciples and the church would have been wiped out in its infancy. Lastly Jesus tells each disciple, save John, they were going to be killed, thus in vs. 13 he is telling THEM (not end time people) that THEY MUST ENDURE until the end [of their lives]. In other words, do not become another Judas and as Paul said, the race must be run in full, unto the end of the race.

Jesus most certainly mentioned these Judgments, you didn't hear him however. Read vs. 29 again. the Sun and Moon goes dark, how is it you do not understand that is a DOTL reference? The Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8, in Trumps 1-3 BRING Trump #4 the Darkening of the Sun & Moon by 1/3. The Gospels are not Prophecy per se, they are Jesus teaching the Disciples mostly. So, why would he need to go in to detail about the end times unto them? He did that with John in the book of Revelation. 

On 4/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

There can only be one explanation why they aren't mentioned by Jesus. These judgments come after His glorious coming. To say otherwise is an enormous contradiction. 

 

Jesus equates the Wrath of God, which follows the great tribulation, with Noah's flood in the form of an analogy..... Matt 24:37-39

Nope, the Wrath of God is in vs. 29, THEN........Jesus shows up 1260 days later in verses 30-31. The verses you cited 37-39 are the Pre 70th week Rapture. You see, when they asked Jesus about his coming, he HAD to give two explanations because some Jews will go through the 70th week and then get saved and alas some like us will be a part of Jesus' Bride right? The nuances matter brother. All these little tid-bits is why you get off tracked here and there.

On 4/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus says that in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark and they were unaware until the flood came (wrath of God) and swept them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

Yes, the coming for the Church, not the Second Coming, they would not be SURPRISED then would they? It has to be an EVENT that catches them by surprise, you see, once Jesus comes for the Church, its like THE RAIN STARTS FALLING, the Flood (Judgments) are coming, its just a matter of time !! This staring with the Beasts Conquering of Israel there will be a 1260 day countdown, everyone know what day Jesus is going to show up on. 

On 4/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus tells us the unrighteous will be living normal lives right up to the coming of Jesus - eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and in Luke 17, Jesus adds buying and selling, planting and building - a full summation of normal living right up until the day of Jesus' coming.

 

Right up until the pre 70th week Rapture, not up until the 2nd Coming as its known, which is a misnamed event, because 1/3 have been killed, they understand Jesus will show up 1260 days after the Beast conquers Israel, they can all read. They will not be surprised. You conflate it all to try and fit a narrative brother, just admit the pre 70th week rapture is real and BUCKLE UP !!

On 4/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

The darkening of the sun moon and stars takes place after the 6th seal. This major event is not seen in Rev 19. What is seen at the 6th seal is the sun darkened, the moon is darkened to blood, the stars fall, the powers of the heavens are shaken as the sky is rolled like a scroll, a great and mighty earthquake, the tribes of  the earth mourn and hide in caves ------------------------------ THEN-------------------------- Jesus appears, breaks the blackest darkness by His Shekinah Glory, blazing in light, coming on the clouds, seated on a throne..... and then:

 

                            "And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet..... and they will gather                                              together His elect, from the four winds.... from one end of the sky to the other"

 

The Parousia is the coming of our Glorious Savior. It is the one and only Parousia. It is referred to this way 18 times in Scripture and yet, Rev  19 does not use this term.

The 6th Seal is Prophetic in nature, so yes it takes place AFTERWARDS, at the First Four Trumps, which are ONE EVENT, an Asteroid Impact. The 4th Trump shows this very event, the sun & moons light dims by 1/3. 

Jesus indeed sends his angels to Harvest the Wicked and the Wheat (Jews) in Rev. 14, BUT............look at Rev. 14:14 it is Jesus himself who Harvests the Church from upon the clouds !! That verse is a Pre 70th week flashback like in movies where we see flashbacks. 

On 4/29/2024 at 12:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

One more point:

 

Satan, the beast and the false prophet know when Jesus is coming in Rev 19. In Rev 16:14-16 we see these three send out demonic spirits to gather the kings of the earth to fight Jesus in the battle of Armageddon. They know Jesus is returning for the final showdown... to fight him.

Yet.... in Math 24 we are told that no-one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' coming..... so Rev 19 can't be that coming. 

 

If the two events were the same.... Matt 24 and Rev 19.... there would be similar symbols.

But there is nothing about the two accounts that are  similar.

They are completely and utterly different. 

 

         Jesus tells us when He is coming back. He tells us in His own words in Matthew 24:29-31. Read it!

Thats because you conflate Matt. 24:36-51 as being the Second Coming for the 2nd Advent, it is not, it is Jesus rapturing his Church home from upon the clouds. Rev. 11 (7th Trump Victory), Rev. 14:17-20, Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 19:17-20 are all the exact same event !! Jesus showing up to defeat his enemies on earth. Matt. 24:30-31 is the exact same event. Verse 29 however matches up with Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 16..........THEN Jesus comes (Matt. 24:30-31) just like in Rev. 16:19 and in Rev. 19:17-20. 

I can go verse by verse on Matt. 24 if needed. It hurts me to see you get so, so excited about another great reveal only to miss the mark. If I was in a war against you and you were slinging grenades I would party like it's 1999. 

Edited May 6, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 5/3/2024 at 11:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

So.... Rev man.... 

I know from past conversations that you equate the armies of heaven returning with Christ as the church.

Are you now really saying that the armies that follow Jesus out of heaven on horses jump off their horses and fly in the air and answer the call of the angel to assemble for dinner? 

(I slap myself on the forehead and exclaim "good grief")

No one is on real Horses, we are not birds, that is Jesus speaking OVER THE HEAD of those of the world, unto his diciples and us in symbolism and parables only we can understand. 

 

On 5/3/2024 at 11:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

The Lamb's wedding feast does NOT entail feasting on the flesh of horses or people. We are not cannibals. We are not zombies. We do not have a feast on the battlefield!

Its the Wedding Feast, its a METAPHOR for the Bride/Church getting victory over their enemies who in many cases killed and murdered them throughout the Church Age. 

On 5/3/2024 at 11:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

The Lamb's wedding feast will take place on His Holy Mountain where He will prepare a feast of aged wine and choice meat..... a lavish banquet.

 

That is correct, it happens ON EARTH, after the Church returns with Jesus.

 

Edited May 6, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Retrobyter]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:51 PM, JoeCanada said:

                Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19 is not the second coming.

 

Jesus coming on the clouds in Matthew 24 is the second coming - and Revelation 19's Jesus coming on a white horse is something else.

 

I can hear most of you say "What?....has Joe Canada lost his marbles?"....... 

 

Christians have built their entire eschatological theory on the assumption that the two comings in Matt 24 and Rev 19 are the same event.

 

The pre-trib and post-trib rapture are both built on this assumption.

 

The Rev 19 Second Coming being the same event as Jesus' coming on the clouds in Matt 24 is probably one of the greatest assumptions in the bible.

 

Shalom, @JoeCanada.

Okay, I'm going to quote your original post, but I need to be able to break it apart to insert my additions. I don't know what is different, but I can't just break it with a well-positioned [RETURN]; so, it's going to require making quotes and cutting/pasting your stuff into those new quotes. And, in fair warning, this is going to be a long post. Just sayin'.

First, Christians have been making a LOT of assumptions down through the last millennium! Some are not too bad; others are disasterous! IMO, one should DROP the "pre-trib," "pre-wrath," and "post-trib" labels and just start with the Scriptures. Come to RIGHT conclusions from Scriptures and let the chips fall where they may!

Let's start with a proper understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21:

In the King James Version, this reads,

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here's the Greek of these two verses:

20 τοῦτο πρῶτον γινώσκοντες ὅτι πᾶσα προφητεία γραφῆς ἰδίας ἐπιλύσεως οὐ γίνεται· 21 οὐ γὰρ θελήματι ἀνθρώπου ἠνέχθη ποτέ προφητεία ἀλλ᾽ ὑπὸ πνεύματος ἁγίου φερόμενοι ἐλάλησαν οἱ ἅγιοι θεοῦ ἄνθρωποι

Transliterated, we get:

20 touto prooton ginooskontes hoti pasa profeeteia grafees idias epiluseoos ou ginetai; 21 ou gar theleemati anthroopou eenechthee pote profeeteia, all' hupo Pneumatos Hagiou feromenoi elaleesan hoi hagioi Theou anthroopoi.

Translated word for word, we get:

20 this first knowing that any prophecy of-writing/Scripture of-its-own interpretation not is. 21 not for by-will of-a-man was-brought once/ever a-prophecy, but under Spirit of-Holy being-carried spoke of-the holy of-God men.

In American English, we would write:

20 knowing this first, that any prophecy of Scripture is not of its own interpretation. 21 For a prophecy was not ever brought by [the] will of a man, but being carried under [the] Spirit of [the] Holy, men of the Holy God spoke.

I've heard a MULTITUDE of misinterpretations of these two verses; so, we needed to clear this up first: This is NOT saying that a person can't understand the Scriptures on his or her own! Peter is telling us that the Scriptures which contain prophecy do not stand alone. They ALL come from men under the "inspiration" of the Holy God through His Holy Spirit. And, therefore, they do NOT stand alone! All the Scriptures that contain prophecy are interrelated because there is only ONE GOD! Therefore, we can also conclude from these verses that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS among all thr prophecies of Scripture.

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As Scripture will show, these two events have nothing in common. Scripture will interpret Scripture by using shared words or shared events between two passages to show that the two things are the same. There are no shared words or symbols between the events in Matt 24 and Rev 19.

 

The second coming IS the FIRST time that Jesus returns in great glory and power - He can only do that ONE time. But..... He can return more than once. It's the difference between a return and a coming.

 

Okay.... let's look at some scriptures:

 

In Jesus's explanation of the end times in Matthew 24, after the great tribulation, our Lord descends from heaven, coming on the clouds, with power and great glory....the shekinah glory of  God. 

I agree with you that there is a difference between a return and a coming, and you are right that Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming of our Master Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach 'Elohiym (our Lord Jesus the Christ or the Messiah of God). Have you ever looked up the word "shekinah?" It comes from the Hebrew word שָׁכַן transliterated as "shaakhan" (H7931) which means "abide; lodge; reside; or permanently stay."

The word for "glory" in Hebrew is כָּבוֹד transliterated as "kaaVowd" (H3519). It means "to be heavy, weighty." Since it can also be talking about the "weight" of gold and silver, it is about BEING VALUED or VALUABLE.

However, the word "glory" in Greek is δόξα transliterated as "doxa" which means "very apparent" like a wealthy person among the simple or like a bright white light among the darkness of space. Thus, it can mean "splendor, brightness."

"Heaven" is from "Old English heofon, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hemel and German Himmel." It's secondary meaning today is actually its original meaning and its historically primary meaning: "2 (often heavens) literary 'the sky,' especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated: Galileo used a telescope to observe the heavens."

The same is true for the Greek word "οὐρανός" transliterated as "ouranos." It means "the sky." It is the root and primary component of μεσουράνημα transliterated as "mesouraneema" which means "mid-sky" where the fowl of the air fly (Rev. 19:17).

All of these Greek words are found in Matthew 24:30! With these translations in verse 30, we will read it as:

Matthew 24:30 (KJV with alterations)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the sky, and the powers of the skies shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the sky: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great brightness. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

THIS is what the Greek is telling us: It's not saying that Yeeshuwa` will come "from heaven"; it's saying that He will come "from the sky!"

This may seem trivial, but it is FUNDAMENTAL to the understanding of how the Second Coming will occur.

When "stars fall out of the sky" they are called "meteors." When "stars fall out of the sky to the earth," they are called "meteorites."

Mark's account also clears up "from one end of the sky to the other":

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV with alterations)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of the sky shall fall, and the powers that are in the sky shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of the sky."

This means "from the lowest point of the earth to the highest point of the sky"; so, "from one end of the sky to the other" would be VERTICALLY! "from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point."

Neither Matthew's account nor Mark's nor Luke's says that He comes "upon his throne!"

As a matter of fact, in Matthew's account Yeeshuwa` later says,

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

This means that after He has arrived, He will take up His role as the King of Jews (and later as the King of all Israel) and begin His reign.

***

Revelation 19:11 reads differently. Here's the Greek:

11 Καὶ εἶδον τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον, καὶ ἰδού, ἵππος λευκός καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν καλούμενος πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός καὶ ἐν δικαιοσύνῃκρίνει καὶ πολεμεῖ

This transliterates to ...

11 Kai eidon ton ouranon aneoogmenon, kai idou, hippos leukos kai ho katheemenos ep' auton kaloumenos pistos kai aleethinos kai en dikaiosunee krinei kai polemei

Word for word, this translates to ...

11 And I-saw the sky opened-upward, and look!, a-horse white and the-[One] sitting upon it was-called "Faithful (Consistent) and True (Reliable)" and in righteousness/justice he-will-judge and he-will-wage-war

Note that it does NOT say that He comes "from heaven" nor does it even say that He comes "from the sky!" How does a HORSE FLY?! No, the SKY BREAKS and He comes riding to the rescue! 

It's rather like Gandalf riding upon Shadowfax appearing on the mountain top as the sun rises above the battle below, in the movie "The Lord of the Rings: the Two Towers," when He arrives to save Theoden, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and all those with them in the Hornburg! That's how it will be when the Lord Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God returns to fight!

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In Revelation 19, at the end of Revelation, Jesus descends from heaven riding a white horse, accompanied by heavens armies. Where is the horse in Matt 24? There is no horse to be seen. In Matt 26 we read " Thereafter, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power and coming on the clouds of heaven. This shows Jesus initially comes seated on a throne, next to the invisible Father, and that everyone will see this. But..... NO horse. If Jesus left heaven on a horse, how did he end up on a throne.

 

In Rev 6:16.... "Hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb".... Again, Jesus is seated  on a throne when the whole world sees Him and the unrighteous ask to hide.

Another view: ...... "I looked and behold, a white cloud and sitting on the cloud was one like the Son of Man.... Rev 14:14

And another :...... "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne...... Matt 25:31

 

So..... where's the horse and the armies?

 

Did Jesus do some fancy cowboy moves and jump off His horse and land on His throne?

 

Not likely..... there is one coming - Jesus on a throne Matt 24..................... and another return - Jesus on a horse Rev 19. 

 

The Seal Trumpet and Bowl judgments have 21 events between them, each one having 7.... 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls.

 

The disciples asked Jesus in Matt 24:5-14 what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. Jesus then proceeded to mention six signs or events prior to His coming..... false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, tribulation, apostasy and preaching of the gospel to the whole world..... 

Yet, Jesus didn't mention even one of the judgments in the trumpet and bowls, which are unquestionably signs of incredible severity - burning of 1/3 of the earth population by fire and brimstone, stinging of unbelievers by demon locusts, etc.

 

There can only be one explanation why they aren't mentioned by Jesus. These judgments come after His glorious coming. To say otherwise is an enormous contradiction. 

 

Jesus equates the Wrath of God, which follows the great tribulation, with Noah's flood in the form of an analogy..... Matt 24:37-39

 

Jesus says that in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark and they were unaware until the flood came (wrath of God) and swept them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

Jesus tells us the unrighteous will be living normal lives right up to the coming of Jesus - eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and in Luke 17, Jesus adds buying and selling, planting and building - a full summation of normal living right up until the day of Jesus' coming.

 

Do you really think that normal living will be taking place during the Trumpet and Bowl judgments, when 1/3 of the earth is burned with fire and brimstone - demonic locusts stinging for 5 months and people wanting to die but can't - earthquakes levelling cities and mountains, moving islands - 100 pound hailstones crushing any and every thing - boils and sores on people - oceans and fresh water all poisoned?

 

Jesus' garments are stained in Rev 19 - they are dipped in blood before He mounts a white horse and leaves heaven. This happens, as Isaiah 63:1-4 describes, where He pours out His wrath on Edom, and stains His garments with the blood of the unrighteous, treading the winepress of God Almighty. This means that He was on the earth prior to Rev 19. Jesus says He treads this by himself, there was no-one with Him, yet in Rev 19 He comes with the armies from heaven. 

 

Jesus' primary purpose in Matthew 24 is the gathering of the saints - this is a main theme in the bible. Both the old and new testament speak of it. And yet in Rev 19, we find the main theme is Jesus returning with His armies to wipe out the antichrist and his hordes. There is no mention of any gathering of the saints.

 

The darkening of the sun moon and stars takes place after the 6th seal. This major event is not seen in Rev 19. What is seen at the 6th seal is the sun darkened, the moon is darkened to blood, the stars fall, the powers of the heavens are shaken as the sky is rolled like a scroll, a great and mighty earthquake, the tribes of  the earth mourn and hide in caves ------------------------------ THEN-------------------------- Jesus appears, breaks the blackest darkness by His Shekinah Glory, blazing in light, coming on the clouds, seated on a throne..... and then:

 

                            "And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet..... and they will gather                                              together His elect, from the four winds.... from one end of the sky to the other"

 

The Parousia is the coming of our Glorious Savior. It is the one and only Parousia. It is referred to this way 18 times in Scripture and yet, Rev  19 does not use this term.

 

One more point:

 

Satan, the beast and the false prophet know when Jesus is coming in Rev 19. In Rev 16:14-16 we see these three send out demonic spirits to gather the kings of the earth to fight Jesus in the battle of Armageddon. They know Jesus is returning for the final showdown... to fight him.

Yet.... in Math 24 we are told that no-one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' coming..... so Rev 19 can't be that coming. 

 

If the two events were the same.... Matt 24 and Rev 19.... there would be similar symbols.

But there is nothing about the two accounts that are  similar.

They are completely and utterly different. 

 

         Jesus tells us when He is coming back. He tells us in His own words in Matthew 24:29-31. Read it!

I'm going to finish up my comments at this point and just end with this: Many have a messed up view on the TIMING within the events of the Revelation.

Just know this: Yeeshuwa` is not coming to "DESTROY THE EARTH"; He is coming TO BEGIN HIS REIGN UPON THE EARTH!

[WilliamL]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:40 PM, JoeCanada said:

If you don't want to believe that it's the second coming, well, that's ok. The Greek term is "Parousia" which is a coming or presence, but I don't really need to tell you this. Whether its actually a "second" coming (presence) or a third, forth or whatever, it will be His established presence..... forever.  

Agreed.

On 5/2/2024 at 7:40 PM, JoeCanada said:

So, yes, I believe that Scripture teaches that the "parousia" is equated with the resurrection and then the rapture

Fine, so do I. But others teach that "the second coming" is not the same as the rapture, because Jesus only comes in the clouds/air at that time. Whereas, to them, the second coming only refers to when he sets his feet on earth/the Mount of Olives. So that is why I say that this non-biblical term can cause confusion, and should be avoided unless specifically clarified.