Wrath v Great Tribulation

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I was pointing out unto him that we do not need to keep the Law of Moses anymore

God's harvest laws of sowing and reaping were established in Genesis.

Gen 8:22 ... While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest ........ Shall not cease

[Revelation Man]

27 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

God's harvest laws of sowing and reaping were established in Genesis.

Gen 8:22 ... While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest ........ Shall not cease

Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

This ends  the Debate, the Schedule of the Lunar Moons were for Israel lone, God's set aside or CALLED OUT PEOPLES, but His whole efforts were to get them to know His on His level as Spiritual Beings, not Fleshly Men, and thus everything He tried to teach Israel (and God used Israel as a Guide for us the Church) to communicate with Him in the Spiritual realm. Now that we have access continually unto the Spirit, why do you look back to the Laws? Makes no sense at all brother. 

Read all of Gal. 3, Paul was chastising the Galatians for trying to be Jew like in keeping the Laws of Moses, in so doing they cheapened the Sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus paid the FULL PRICE, there is nothing you or I can do that is worthy of anything but Death, besides accepting the blood of Jesus. The Harvest Laws thus were more akin to a principle, in order to get a great Harvest you need to do this, this and this. The Law of Moses came later.

[Retrobyter]

31 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

This is true, and why I was pointing out unto him that we do not need to keep the Law of Moses anymore, however there may (are) be so deeper truths found in those laws regarding prophesies, for instance God did not just give Israel 490 years of penance (70 x 7) He gave them that because of Laws given in Leviticus, if you are given a judgment (70 years in Babylon) and do not repent, it will then be TIMED (x) by 7. So, hence the 70 x 7 or 490 year, so the Law is no longed needed, we are in Grace, but we can still find nuggets of truths at how God's perfect law was used for Israel, and therefore why no man can be Justified under the Law, it must be by faith alone.

Shalom, @Revelation Man.

Good. The way you said it almost made me think that one could be lost if He didn't keep God's commandments. We should still try, of course, because we can think of every sin we commit being "one more thorn in His crown, one more nail in His hands and feet, one more lash across His back." But, for THOSE sins - still in the future that we will commit - He DIED and paid for them, past, present, and future!

31 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

God's Glory is not contingent upon mankind, He had his glory before we were ever created right? 

Not with God, remember God has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, meaning as a Spirit, he has the Abundance of the Virtue, of Peace, Joy, Love, Hope, Kindness et al. God's Glory is His virtues. 

Some traits of God are contingent upon the viewers. God is light, and that was true before the Creation; but, He could only be AWESOME when there was someone there who could be awed!

Exodus 34:1-17 (KJV)

1 And the LORD said unto Moses,

"Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon [these] tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. 2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. 3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount."

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed,

"The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation]."

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. 9 And he said,

"If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it [is] a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance."

10 And he said,

"Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou [art] shall see the work of the LORD: for IT [IS] A TERRIBLE (Hebrew: נוֹרָא = NOWRAA' = TERRIFYING) THING THAT I WILL DO WITH THEE. 11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. 12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: 13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: 14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous (Hebrew: קַנָּא = qannaa' = [used only of God] 'not bearing any rival'), [is] a jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and [one] call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; 16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. 17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods. ..."

Note that this foreshadows the alliance with the city of Gibeon in Joshua 9 and the downfall of Shlomoh ("Solomon"), seen in 1 Kings 11.

So, YHWH God is MIGHTY in power, but He is also TERRIFYING which must be SEEN by people!

Thus, we can apply this to the fact that "God is LIGHT and in Him is no darkness at all" and show that it is GLORY to observers of that LIGHT! For something to be "apparent," someone must be "observing."

31 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No, verses 36-45 are the Anti-Christ.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that a prophecy is yet unfulfilled.  Daniel 11:36 through 11:45 are about Daniel's people and how they experienced things prior to the Messiah's first coming.

From verse 22 and up to verse 35 are all about Antiochus IV and the rebellion of Judah (the Maccabees, or the Hammer) and his men.

The "KING" mentioned in verse 36 is NOT the "antichrist." He is HEROD the Great, the first "king" over Judaea who is known after the Rededication of the Temple. It was HE of whom it was said, "he shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all."

Herod the Great was quite a character! He was INSANELY suspicious of potential usurpers to his throne. He was an Idumean, that is, he was from Edom, when Edom was conquered by the Hasmonean dynasty of priests, and they were forced to convert to Judaism. But, he was ambitious and had convinced the emperor of Rome to set HIM up as the client king of Judaea. It was HIS way of getting back at the Jews by ruling over them!

But, he was a builder! He loved to build things! He felt it was his "mark on the world," and he was quite proud of his accomplishments and took pride in his work.

Most of the rest of this chapter is about him as Judaea's king, while some of it is about Caesar Augustus of Rome and his dealings with Queen Cleopatra II of Egypt and her escort "king," Marcus Antonius (Mark Anthony), which involved Herod. The birth of the Messiah is seen in verse 44 for the "tidings out of the east and out of the north" was the announcement of a contender to his throne, a "king of the Jews" being born! The sentence, "he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many," was his attempt to kill the contender by destroying all the children in that area who could be this "king of the Jews!" He dies a horrible death in verse 45.

The name "Michael" in Hebrew is "מִיכָאֵל" which is a composite of two prefixes and the word "אֵל" which means "God." The first prefix "מִי" is translated "who" and the second "כָ" is translated as "like." While the "who" portion MAY be an interrogative pronoun, implying a question, as in English, it also may be a RELATIVE pronoun, describing the person! This is NOT an "angel!" This is "Sar Shalom" - the "PRINCE OF PEACE!" He will be "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people!"

Daniel 12:1 (KJV)

1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

It is after Him and THROUGH Him that "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time!" It is the time of Jacob's trouble! It is the RESULT of their rejection of Him as their King, and His pronouncment upon them, leaving them "DESOLATE" until they can welcome Him back as YHWH'S Anointed (Matthew 23:38-39)!

[Triton57]

On 12/16/2024 at 3:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Triton57, and to ANYONE who is reading along (which I encourage).

I'm REALLY starting to like and appreciate you, brother!

And, note: This highlighted line in verse 38 is the partial FULFILLMENT of Daniel 9:27! AND, Yeeshuwa` ties it together with the phrase, "Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord," which is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of this is ...

בָּרוּךְ הַבָּא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה בֵּרַכְנוּכֶם מִבֵּית יְהוָה׃

And, this is transliterated as ...

26 Baaruwkh habaa' b-sheem YHWH; beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH:

These first two words "Baaruwkh habaa'," are seen IN THEIR PLURAL forms, "Baaruwkhiym haabaa'iym," at all the airports and seaports in Israel!

This is their "WELCOME, VISITORS" sign!

This means that the Lord Yeeshuwa` was telling them that He wouldn't be back in His formal capacity until they could WELCOME HIM back! And, they must recognize that He is "habaa' b-sheem YHWH! " That is, they must recognize Him as "the-Comer in [the]-name (on the-authority) of-YHWH," our GOD, the "LORD'S ANOINTED!"

I believe that we can also conclude that THIS is the "limiting reagent" in the "equation!" THIS is what determines the end of the "time of Jacob's trouble!" But, that time, which started with this pronouncement of "DESOLATION," has been going on for nearly TWO THOUSAND YEARS!

It's always a pleasure and learning experience discussing the Word of God.

John 12:12-13
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

It's wonderful that there were some at least who recognized His coming, likely unaware of the necessity of Him dying just days later as the suffering servant, but unfortunately it wasn't the majority of the people and certainly not the priesthood, Pharisees, Sadducees, etc. Of course if they had accepted Him, the atoning sacrifice would not have been accomplished as determined from before the foundation of the world.

I expect, in similar fashion, when the false anointed one comes the same religious spirit of the leadership will accept him because he initially turns their hearts back to God's Law, builds the temple, defeats their enemies, and all the Old Testament prophecies they expected from the Messiah that Yeshua was always going to fulfill, just not all at once. These unfaithful of Israel who will play the harlot and go after a false god will also have returned to the judgements of the Law and all that comes with that. This doesn't bode well for those who reject him.

On the other side, the faithful of Israel will reject him and have the wrath of the Dragon and a zealous people turn on them as they reject and blaspheme their new god. It is out of this time of great distress on Israel that I believe Christ returns in glory to cut short the wrath of the Dragon on the faithful of Israel in Judea during the time of Jacob's trouble. And it is this attitude I expect, to your point, of the faithful of Israel having their blindness removed at the fullness of the Gentiles when the Lord comes to gather His bride, that they will look on Him who they pierced and repent and welcome Him back in the time of distress that He saves them out of. Interestingly, if His return is the fulfillment of the fall appointed times, the season of teshuvah leads up to the days of repentance and Yom Kippur, where those who don't afflict their souls are cut off from the people.

Psalm 118:4-9
Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy [endureth] for ever. I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, [and set me] in a large place. The LORD [is] on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me? The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see [my desire] upon them that hate me. [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Revelation 12:14-16
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

So we have the deceived and unfaithful of Israel who believe the Messiah is now dwelling in Jerusalem on earth. Their souls are not afflicted and they will be cut off from Israel in apostasy, cut off from the root and destined for the second death. And they and all who participate in the apostasy will receive the wrath of God, just as God's people received the wrath of the Dragon.

The faithful of Israel will come out of great tribulation and in their pleading with God will be answered and protected in the wilderness from the Dragon who began persecuting them in Judea.

So I agree with you that their acceptance and welcoming back of Yeshua is the end of the time of Jacob's trouble. I just define that start differently.

Quote

Right! However, NONE of the four mentions of the "desolation" in the book of Daniel are within our future. The three passages of Daniel 8:11-12, 11:11-32, and 12:11 were about Daniel's people's future and is now in the past - the "desolation" that was brought on by Antiochus IV, which the "Hammer" ("Maccabees") crushed through God's intervention!

Ah, but this BEGAN in 70 A.D. and has been going on ever since! THAT'S what makes this tribulation "great!" IT'S HUGE! It's also mentioned in Matthew 24:9!

Matthew 24:9-14 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

The Greek of verse 9 is  ...

Κατα Ματθαιον 24:9

9 τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν, καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου.

This transliterates to ...

9 "Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin, kai apoktenousin humas; kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou."

And, it translates word-for-word to ...

9 "Then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation, and they-shall-kill you; and ye-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me."

Now, I've done a study on the Olivet Discourse, taking the Greek of the three passages and harmonizing them first, and THEN translating the harmony into English. What I discovered is that the KEY to the Olivet Discourse is found in the usage of the Greek pronouns, particularly "humeis," "humoon," "humin," and "humas" which are ALL cases of the second-person plural pronoun, commonly translated as "you."

humeis = subjective "ye"
humoon = genitive "of you"
humoon = ablative "from you"
humin = locative "in you" or "at you"
humin = instrumental "with you" or "by you"
humin = dative "to you" or "for you"
humas = directly objective "you"

Also, if the endings of the verbs are "-te" or "-the" (-τε, tau-epsilon or -θε, theta-epsilon), they are the second-person, plural endings of the future tense.

When Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was talking directly to His disciples right there in front of Him, talking to them about a future THEY would have the chance to experience, He would be translated as having used "humeis/humoon/humin/humas." But, when He would peer off into the distant future, He would use "many" (translated into Greek as πολλοὶ or πολλούς or πολλῶν) or verbs that have a "third-person, plural" ending (like ὄψονται, meaning "they shall see"), instead.

We see then in verse 9, in the words "humas" (twice) and the word "esesthe," that He was speaking directly to His disciples about something they would have the chance (or misfortune) to see for themselves.

Therefore, this tribulation began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D., and it began upon their generation!

I believe Daniel 2 places the stone cut without hands destroying the statue at the feet to be Yeshua's kingdom established in 30 AD after conquering death and becoming our salvation. It was after His resurrection that the Gospel began to spread, not a kingdom of this world, but an eternal kingdom, hidden, that filled the world and it has been ever since. Indeed the attempts to intermarry and save Rome eventually failed and the kingdom of God is still within the bride of Christ, the oil for their lamps to meet the Bridegroom when He returns.

Likewise, to your point, Matthew 24:9-14 speaks to this time when the church was growing and persecuted, initially by their own people, and the Gospel has been preached in all the world as a witness. I agree, verse 9 is speaking of that time and Yeshua was speaking to His disciples about the coming persecution they would face. I would say He was also speaking to all who would read it in the future, to understand that faith in Christ doesn't mean tribulation goes away, but that we who believe can and will be hated for His namesake.

That is tribulation and it has been with the church since before Yeshua went to prepare a place for us. But notice how verse 14 and 13 end.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The end comes at the end of the period you are talking about, the period we are still in. "The end" is not yet, but likely closer than most think. And what is "the end" that comes after those verses?

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:14, 19-20
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: ... For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And this is my point, we're promised tribulation since Yeshua's day, but this is unparalleled tribulation. By definition, "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" and "affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be" separate this time out from any time before or after it. It is not the tribulation of the last 2,000 years, this is different. And the differences are what I'm talking about. It's for a particular people, Daniel's people, the people in Judea, it's the time of Jacob's trouble.

Jeremiah 30:4-7
And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

And Jacob's trouble could not have started in the first century because it is labeled not only with the same unparalleled definition Yeshua gave, but also pointed at Israel and Israel is saved out of it. Again, a day that is great such that none is like it means it has to be the same time that Yeshua is speaking of, the time of the end, after the expected tribulation of the past 2,000 years.

John 16:32-33
Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So I agree in part, that tribulation started in the first century regarding the bride in context of being hated for His namesake and for the Jews as judgement for not knowing the hour of His visitation. However, the unparalleled time follows a statement that "the end" comes, which is after the tribulation warned of by Yeshua to His disciples. To me this says that tribulation is not the same as unparalleled tribulation and they are separated by "the end."

Quote

And, the prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27 have been fulfilled UP TO THE OFFER OF THE KINGDOM BY THE MESSIAH, which is recorded in all four of the Gospels. All the same, the prophecy of the WHOLE TIME is summarized by Gabriel in Daniel 9:24-27, and he noted that "in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (through His OWN Sacrifice of His body), and for the overspreading of abominations (of the scribes and Pharisees) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate!" which HE DID in Matthew 23:38!

FORTY YEARS later, recognized as a "time of testing," the DESOLATION was fully realized, when Jerusalem was surrrounded by the Roman armies and the Temple was destroyed, and razed to the ground to get at the molten gold that flowed between the foundation stones after the Temple had been set on fire, as Yeeshuwa` predicted here in Luke 19:41-44; 21;6, 20-24 and in Matthew 24:2, 15-22, as well as in Mark 13:2, 14-20! 

People have been misreading and misunderstanding Daniel 9:26-27 so long that they've built MUCH around the idea that it was the "prince that should come" who is the antecedent of the word "he" found three times in verse 27. But, that's not true.

However, in so saying, they've built up this idea of the "Antichrist" (the "prince that should come") making a 7-year peace treaty with Israel and then breaking that treaty in the middle of it (3.5 years after its signing).

That's all I'll say on it, because the whole idea is based upon the faulty thinking that the "Antichrist" is the antecedent of the pronouns "he" in verse 27 when it was actually the MESSIAH - the CHRIST - of verse 26 who is the antecedent!

So, in 30 A.D., the Messiah pronounced the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate." In 66 A.D., through another angel sent to the believing Jews of that time, the Jews were warned to flee from Jerusalem at the first sign of the abomination which derived FROM the pronouncement of "desolation," the raising of the Roman Legion Eagle in the Temple grounds. They DID flee Jerusalem at the time and regrouped  in Pella on the east side of the Jordan River, which is now the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Then, in 70 A.D., came the destruction of the Temple. This is what Yeeshuwa` was talking about in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

See, instead, I see that verse 11 is a RECAP of what Antiochus IV was going to do in 167 B.C.. which was the nearer prophecy that the people of Daniel would encounter.

While I don't agree verse 27 has begun to be fulfilled, I do agree that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was the fulfillment of Yeshua's declaration of the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple.

I feel I've read pretty carefully and while I don't know Hebrew or Greek, there are tools that help. I'm at a disadvantage to those who would look at my lack of understanding of the languages as an inability to understand what is meant in translation, but I'm always willing to learn. I do think there are some things plainly written in all translations, or at least discernible with the help of tools, sufficient to understand.

I actually don't subscribe to the "he" being either the Messiah or the prince to come. In a plain reading, the prince to come was from Daniel's perspective and is self-explanatory as 70 AD and Titus, prince of his father Vespasian. But then of course the plain reading of Daniel 9:25-27 clearly walks through time from the start of the first 69 weeks in verse 25, After the end of the 69 the Messiah being cut off and the city and sanctuary being destroyed and the Jewish-Roman wars decimating those who stood against Rome, to the 70th week that would then come after the end of the Jewish-Roman wars.

It is my opinion that the 70th week stands on its own and the "he" is contextual to the rest of prophecy written here a little and there a little throughout scripture. Similar to how Daniel 11 has a king of the North and South and then toward the end, both the king of the North and South go after a sudden appearance of a 3rd character.

I also do not subscribe to a 7-year peace treaty that is broken. The idea of a peace treaty is assumed because some read into the modern context the inability of Israel to build the temple without some kind of external treaty to allow it.

Rather, I see a confirmation of an existing covenant and the week is only mentioned because this strengthening of an existing covenant is tied to the completion of the 70 weeks appointed to Israel and Jerusalem. The tribulation, not mentioned in Daniel 9:27, comes from the exact-day prophecies of Daniel and John combined with what I mentioned above about Yeshua placing an unparalleled tribulation at "the end." Daniel 12:1-11 is tied to that unparalleled great tribulation by definition, which Yeshua place at "the end."

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And being that there are no chapter or verse in the original text, it's clear Daniel 11:40-45 is just before that time at "the end." It is this time where a North and South back and forth suddenly turns in to a North and South attack at a "him" 3rd party, likewise at the time of "the end."

Daniel 11:40-45
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Yeshua points to Daniel the prophet at "the end" to define the abomination of desolation for us and Daniel 12:1-11 is placed at the time of "the end" as is Matthew 24:15-31 and Mark 13:14-27. By definition of unparalleled, Jeremiah 30:4-7 also is tied to this time of "the end" and so the time of Jacob's trouble is logically placed where Yeshua and the prophets placed it from what I can tell starting that unparalleled time at the abomination of desolation at the end and so not 2,000 years ago.

I don't think we're at the end yet, but I do think we may be seconds to dusk.

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Yes, this persecution or tribulation is upon the children of Daniel's people, the children of Israel, and yes, this tribulation os unparalleled in all of history because it is the LONGEST tribulation that has EVER been upon a people!

However, the time period is NOT cut short"; "those days" of the tribulation are cut short!

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV)

21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

What that means is that within the time period that is based upon the welcoming back of the Messiah, "those days" of tribulation will be curtailed into GROUPS that may then be individually named, with names like "the Spanish Inquisitions" or "the Holocaust," giving time in between to allow the people to repopulate!

I would point back to the verses just prior to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Persecution is prescribed, but at the end unparalleled persecution in Judea is described in four places. I just believe there is a difference between tribulation and unparalleled tribulation that separates things like Matthew 24:9 before the end from Matthew 24:15-22 at the end.

And those days would then be pointing to the unparalleled days that are the focus of the verses after the end comes. And again, the context of the unparalleled tribulation is not the whole time of the Dragon's wrath against God's people, it's the initial period just after the abomination of desolation in Judea related to Daniel's people, Israel, and Jerusalem. Revelation 12:13-17 demonstrates the dual phases of the Dragon's wrath, first at the revealing of the man of sin after the restrainer casts him out of heaven, and then at Christ's coming after the apostasy and revealing, she is protected from the Dragon and he goes after the remnant of her seed and those holding the testimony of Christ outside Judea.

I feel like there's less reading into the text understanding the time in Judea is not the whole tribulation, just the intense part focused on Israel in the land. And I think from other scripture that the intensity is from division of Israel against herself because of the great deception and apostasy that causes her to kill her own in the name of a false god they believe to be the messiah. It's unparalleled in scripture because a false christ with the full backing of the Dragon is allowed by God, who even sends a strong delusion at this time that they would believe a lie. The time is unparalleled for a reason and because it's centered around Israel, until 1948 she wasn't in the land as a nation to be dealt with corporately. Yet I believe God began bringing her back through tribulation to complete His plan to redeem the faithful of Israel at the fullness of the Gentiles.

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No, my friend. Yeeshuwa`s Kingdom is NOT "established in heaven." That is a fallacy that has been propagated on the ASSUMPTION that "sitting with the Father in His throne (or on His dais)" constitutes "reigning with Him!" However, that is neither claimed nor confirmed. 

Instead, we have statements by the Messiah Himself that says He won't be reigning UNTIL He has returned:

Matthew 25:31 (KJV) (part of the Olivet Discourse, btw)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:..."

Also, "glory," which is the Greek word "doxa," is a CONDITION, not a PLACE! It speaks of "being apparent" and may refer to "fame," as the opulence of a rich man or a king, or to "brightness," as that of the sun, the moon, or the stars. It's that which makes something or someone "stand out" as a person from the crowd or a star from the blackness of space.

Yeeshuwa` is not "the king of glory" as the "King of a PLACE"; rather, He is "the king of glory" as a "FAMOUS King!"

Also, Yeeshuwa` said,

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country TO RECEIVE FOR HIMSELF A KINGDOM, AND TO RETURN. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade with this) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this [man] to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM, THEN HE COMMANDED these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading...."

BEING ISRAEL'S KING WAS WHAT YEESHUWA` WAS SENT TO DO!

When talking to Pilate, we read His discussion:

John 18:33-40 (KJV)

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him,

"Art thou the King of the Jews?"

34 Jesus answered him,

"Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?"

35 Pilate answered,

"Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?"

36 Jesus answered,

"My kingdom is not of this world (Greek: kosmos = 'world-system'): if my kingdom were of this world ('world-system'), then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence (from this [sort])."

37 Pilate therefore said unto him,

"Art thou a king then?"

Jesus answered,

"Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

38 Pilate saith unto him,

"What is truth?"

And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them,

"I find in him no fault [at all]. 39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"

40 Then cried they all again, saying,

"Not this man, but Barabbas."

Now Barabbas was a robber.

He didn't say that His Kingdom was "off of the earth!" He was saying that it was of a "DIFFERENT CALIBER of Kingdom!"

Later we read:

John 19:1-22 (KJV)

1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged [him]. 2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put [it] on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, 3 And said,

"Hail, King of the Jews!"

and they smote him with their hands. 4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them,

"Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him."

5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And [Pilate] saith unto them,

"Behold the man!"

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying,

"Crucify [him], crucify [him]!"

Pilate saith unto them,

"Take ye him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in him."

7 The Jews answered him,

"We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God!"

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; 9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus,

"Whence art thou?"

But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then saith Pilate unto him,

"Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?"

11 Jesus answered,

"Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying,

"If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar!"

13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews,

"Behold your King!"

15 But they cried out,

"Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him!"

Pilate saith unto them,

"Shall I crucify your King?"

The chief priests answered,

"We have no king but Caesar!"

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led [him] away. 17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: 18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was,

"JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS."

20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin. 21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate,

"Write not, 'The King of the Jews'; but that 'he said, "I am King of the Jews."' "

22 Pilate answered,

"What I have written I have written."

SO, PILATE WAS CONVINCED AND HE INDELIBLY WROTE IT!

I suppose I should have said His kingdom is established spiritually on Earth. His kingdom is not of this earth and exists eternally in heaven and spiritually in the union of the Spirit and the Bride, a new creation that walks on the Earth yet not born of it, chosen out of it, awaiting the ultimate consummation at the end. The kingdom was established at Christ's coming as depicted in Daniel 2 and has been growing ever since. The ultimate space-time fulfillment of the promise will be during the Messianic Kingdom where the kingdoms of this world will be handed over.

Daniel 2:35, 44-45
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ... And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

To me, this states that when the statue was destroyed the wind carried away the pieces no more to be found. Truly the kingdoms never returned after the days of these kings when God set up a kingdom that was and never will be destroyed. It's not left to other people because the King who established it rose from the dead and is still the King of it while the kingdoms of this world depicted in the statue are dead and gone. Its ultimate fulfillment then is in the physical establishment of His kingdom on Earth. But this kingdom was called the kingdom of heaven too.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Luke 19:11-15 would seem to depict this. Yeshua went to the Father and received the kingdom authority, but He hasn't yet returned to reign over the Earth. That doesn't mean He lacks the authority, He is just waiting for the time appointed to fulfill the plan of God according to His Word. Not coming and allowing the false christ to come to power with lying signs and wonders before His return is the time of testing for Israel that most will fail, but they will then show where their allegiance lies. Those who are not cut off from the people will live in Yeshua's kingdom established on Earth physically, not just spiritually as it is now. We await the promise, already but not yet.

Psalm 110:1-3
[[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Does Yeshua sitting at the right hand of God yet not yet having His enemies made His footstool yet mean He has not been given the kingdom established when the stone struck the foot of the statue symbolizing Rome?

Hebrews 8:1-6
Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 10:9-14
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The Earthly things are a shadow of the heavenly until heaven invades earth at Armageddon and none will stop the establishment of Yeshua's kingdom. He sits at the right hand of the throne of God awaiting the taking of the scroll to break the seals and begin the process of establishing His kingdom.

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He either satisfied the requirement for Sacrifice or He didn't! One can slaughter all the animals one wishes but from the beginning a true sacrifice to God was ONLY acceptable to God if GOD ACCEPTS THE SACRIFICE!

Genesis 4:3-7 (KJV)

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Read the Messianic prophecy in Isaiah 53! However, first understand what the word "soul" actually means:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew is this:

וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָאָדָם עָפָר מִן־הָאֲדָמָה וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים וַיְהִי הָאָדָם לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה׃

So, the word for "soul" here is נֶפֶשׁ transliterated as "nefesh" with the "l-" prefix for "into a"; it is the noun form of the root verb נָפַשׁ or "naafash" meaning "to breathe," and "nefesh" itself means "an [air] breathing creature."

H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nefesh), neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

So, use this info in the reading of Isaiah 53: 

Isaiah 53:5-11 (KJV)

5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (His "air-breathing creature") an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 HE SHALL SEE OF THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL (HIS "AIR-BREATHING CREATURE"), [AND] SHALL BE SATISFIED: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

It doesn't matter WHAT a person may do after this! They continued to perform the rituals after the death of our Lord, the Messiah Yeeshuwa`, for the next FORTY YEARS - a TIME OF TESTING - and they REFUSED to accept Him as their Sacrifice! So, God REMOVED the Temple for further "sacrifices!"

The point is using that to interpret a prophecy about an event being described in a prophecy. If one takes "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" to mean that Yeshua's death on the cross caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, then I would say this is taking a spiritual view that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant ineffective and that is what the prophecy is saying.

There is another way to take it as more descriptive or literal such that in the midst of a 7-year period someone will cause a process of sacrifice and oblation to stop happening. I take this perspective based on the context of other similar prophecies.

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Out of context we could say that spiritually Yeshua took away the need for the daily. However, this is a descriptive literal prophecy of an event that happened.

Daniel 8:11
Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Out of context we could say Yeshua magnified Himself in His sacrifice and took away the need for the daily and caused the sanctuary to be desolate. However, this too is a descriptive prophecy of an event that happened.

I just tend to take this prophecy on a more literally descriptive basis based on the context Yeshua pointed us to speaking of Daniel regarding this unparalleled time. I get that God accepted the sacrifice and the following 40 years of sacrifice were not acceptable, strange things happened with the temple, sacrifice, and menorah during that 40 years that would indicate something was amiss. I just don't view that as causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease because they did not cease for 40 years.

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I can understand your take on this, but the Greek of the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse shows that ALL THREE accounts of the Synoptic Gospels are talking about the SAME THING! Why wouldn't Matthew and Mark talk about the part that Luke said, if they were different? Why wouldn't Luke be more explicit about the "abomination of desolation" occurring AFTER all this?

Maybe I should publish my Greek harmony of the Olivet Discourse so all can see what I saw, but THEY ARE GRAMMATICALLY THE SAME EVENTS! The "tribulation" IS (=) the "time of the Gentiles!"

I don't know why they would write different accounts except that God knew there would be 2 times where He would need to warn His people to flee Jerusalem. One in 70 AD to escape the prophesied destruction and one in our future to warn those watching to flee Jerusalem when they see the abomination of desolation. It could be that Yeshua had this conversation more than once with the disciples too and Luke wrote a variation of one of those times.

What I do know is that a plain reading of Luke diverges from Matthew and Mark's accounts with a clear statement that before the events all three began with about the end, Jerusalem would be encompassed by enemies and the desolation would be close. Then, it joins back in with Matthew and Mark after Jerusalem is trodden by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. At that point we're at the sixth seal, when Yeshua returns and gathers His bride.

Luke doesn't even talk about the abomination of desolation because his warning is for those in 70 AD. He does talk about Yeshua's return. However, I do believe Luke covers this several chapters earlier in Luke 17:22-37. In fact, I think this passage shines some light on the odd statement of Matthew 24:28 and one taken and one left. That's a whole other post though.

However, as I mentioned before I don't see the tribulation happening since the first century as the same unparalleled tribulation for the reasons already covered. There is a clear delineation between the time we're in now and the end IMO.

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The first 3.5 years of the Seventieth Week were the time of His FIRST OFFER of the Kingdom to the Jews, and the second 3.5 years HAVE BEEN DELAYED until His Second Coming when He will bring back His OFFER of the Kingdom and will once again, offer that Kingdom to His tribe, Judah! At that time, the Jews - a NEW generation - will FINALLY be ready to accept Him as the LORD'S Messiah!

While I agree that they will accept Yeshua in the second 3.5 years, I do believe the first 3.5 are yet to come. In Daniel 9, I see verse 25 as the first 69 years, verse 26 as the period between the 69th and 70th in which the Messiah was crucified and Jerusalem destroyed, then verse 27 as the final week that will begin.

I haven't found anywhere that a defined period of 7 is paused and if it is, wouldn't that then no longer be a period of 7? I can understand 70 7s being split like they are because we're only told there are 70 periods of 7 and there's a clear end to the 69 with stuff happening before the 70th. However, as soon as you start splitting the heptads they are no longer periods of 7, they are periods of more than 7.

If I were to say that I'm pausing a week of days for 30 days, that is no longer a week of days, it's 5 weeks. However, I could say I'm going to do something for 5 weeks and pause doing it for a week in that period and it will be completed in 6 weeks without changing the definition of a week.

Daniel 9:27 speaks of a week of time and in the context of the rest of the prophecy it is a week of years.

Some say Yeshua confirmed the covenant at the start of His ministry and 3.5 year later stopped the sacrifice with the New Covenant. But how is the New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant a confirmation or strengthening of it, it's completely new, and why only one week?

Out of curiosity, do you subscribe to the Hebraic Antithetical Parallelism view of interpretation of Daniel 9:25-27?