Rome or Islam?

[Diaste]

When I study the scripture and history about the end of the age empire I find the following:

It all starts in Daniel 2 in the interpretation of the dream.

You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.

History shows this is Nebuchadnezzar, then the Medes and the Persians, followed by Greece, with the fourth a mystery, as the Iron Kingdom is not identified by name. The other three are, just not the Iron Kingdom.

Daniel 8 clarifies;

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

History as well as scripture show this succession to be accurate. In Dan 5 we see Babylon fall to the Medes and Persians. The above shows the continued succession.

After Greece,

"The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation but will not have the same power."

This is the four Generals that eventually consolidated their respective kingdoms out of the thousands of satrapies of the Grecian Empire.

After years of fighting history reveals Cassander ruled Macedonia, Ptolemy held Egypt, Lysimachus ruled Asia Minor and Seleucid the great swath of land in the Middle East.

So far we have Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece and then the Diadochi. 

Daniel 11 iterates this in verses 1-3.

Daniel 11 also speaks to the wars of the Diadochi and the generations after. As evidence:

"29At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

This occurred just as written when the Roman ambassador stopped Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a grandson of Seleucus I, desire to conquer Egypt. Antiochus returned to Damascus stopping in Jerusalem and committing the A of D in verse 31. What then follows is what can only be described as the beast of Revelation in verses 36-37.

When the prophetic narrative foretells a Syrian kings from the line of Seleucid will commit the A of D, then what immediately follows is a prophecy of the beast of the end of the age, do we conclude an Arabic, Muslim, Islamic end of the age beast, or Rome?

 

 

 

[other one]

We'll see.

[JoeCanada]

On 12/15/2024 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

When I study the scripture and history about the end of the age empire I find the following:

It all starts in Daniel 2 in the interpretation of the dream.

You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.

History shows this is Nebuchadnezzar, then the Medes and the Persians, followed by Greece, with the fourth a mystery, as the Iron Kingdom is not identified by name. The other three are, just not the Iron Kingdom.

Daniel 8 clarifies;

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

History as well as scripture show this succession to be accurate. In Dan 5 we see Babylon fall to the Medes and Persians. The above shows the continued succession.

After Greece,

"The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation but will not have the same power."

This is the four Generals that eventually consolidated their respective kingdoms out of the thousands of satrapies of the Grecian Empire.

After years of fighting history reveals Cassander ruled Macedonia, Ptolemy held Egypt, Lysimachus ruled Asia Minor and Seleucid the great swath of land in the Middle East.

So far we have Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece and then the Diadochi. 

Daniel 11 iterates this in verses 1-3.

Daniel 11 also speaks to the wars of the Diadochi and the generations after. As evidence:

"29At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

This occurred just as written when the Roman ambassador stopped Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a grandson of Seleucus I, desire to conquer Egypt. Antiochus returned to Damascus stopping in Jerusalem and committing the A of D in verse 31. What then follows is what can only be described as the beast of Revelation in verses 36-37.

When the prophetic narrative foretells a Syrian kings from the line of Seleucid will commit the A of D, then what immediately follows is a prophecy of the beast of the end of the age, do we conclude an Arabic, Muslim, Islamic end of the age beast, or Rome?

 

 

 

A few years back, there was a debate between Dr Thomas Ice and Joel Richardson on this same subject. It got so heated that it led to an unprovoked attack by Ice calling Richardson a heretic simply because he didn't agree with Ice's position. People really get their backs up against a wall when their "theories" are opposed.

We are told in Dan 2 that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold and that the kingdom of Babylon was his to rule. The kingdoms that followed also ruled over Babylon. If you look at the statue, it is a continuous statue all the way down until it is crushed by the stone, which is Jesus when He comes.

Babylon is the key.

But when we look at Rome, things just don't seem to fit the criteria the bible lays out for  the fourth kingdom/beast in Dan 2 and 7.

Scripture says the fourth kingdom of iron will crush, trample, devour and pulverize the three kingdoms before it.... Dan 2:40

Rome did none of those things. Rome never controlled the Persian aspect of the empire .... Rome never crushed, trampled and devoured the Greek empire either... instead it assimilated much of the Greek culture into their own culture including the Greek language, architecture, dress, law, Greek gods, etc. 

If you look at Islam, when they battled and took over nations ... they destroyed pretty much everything. The architecture, the temples, the statues, they changed the language to Arabic, they allowed only one god to be worshipped, they changed dress code, laws,  changed calendars ... etc etc etc. 

Islam controls Babylon today ... 

Rome never did control Babylon. They marched to Babylon and were defeated by the guerilla tactics of the Arabs after less than one year and pulled back.

The western Roman empire was defeated in 476 AD. The Eastern Roman Empire continued on for another approx. 1000 years before falling to Islam. So the western leg was amputated and that left the statue standing on one leg only. Hmmm ???

So ... Rome never took the Persian kingdom, never crushed the Greek kingdom and never controlled Babylon. Those are the three metals after gold in the statue. 

Islam did.

And Islam controls them today. 

"Iron and clay don't adhere to each other' ... we clearly see this even today. Islam immigrates to Europe and many other nations but they don't mix with the cultures. They bring their own culture with them and try to change the cultures and laws of the countries where they immigrated to. 

 

[Luther]

On 12/15/2024 at 6:35 AM, Diaste said:

When I study the scripture and history about the end of the age empire I find the following:

It all starts in Daniel 2 in the interpretation of the dream.

You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.

History shows this is Nebuchadnezzar, then the Medes and the Persians, followed by Greece, with the fourth a mystery, as the Iron Kingdom is not identified by name. The other three are, just not the Iron Kingdom.

Daniel 8 clarifies;

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

History as well as scripture show this succession to be accurate. In Dan 5 we see Babylon fall to the Medes and Persians. The above shows the continued succession.

After Greece,

"The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation but will not have the same power."

This is the four Generals that eventually consolidated their respective kingdoms out of the thousands of satrapies of the Grecian Empire.

After years of fighting history reveals Cassander ruled Macedonia, Ptolemy held Egypt, Lysimachus ruled Asia Minor and Seleucid the great swath of land in the Middle East.

So far we have Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece and then the Diadochi. 

Daniel 11 iterates this in verses 1-3.

Daniel 11 also speaks to the wars of the Diadochi and the generations after. As evidence:

"29At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

This occurred just as written when the Roman ambassador stopped Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a grandson of Seleucus I, desire to conquer Egypt. Antiochus returned to Damascus stopping in Jerusalem and committing the A of D in verse 31. What then follows is what can only be described as the beast of Revelation in verses 36-37.

When the prophetic narrative foretells a Syrian kings from the line of Seleucid will commit the A of D, then what immediately follows is a prophecy of the beast of the end of the age, do we conclude an Arabic, Muslim, Islamic end of the age beast, or Rome?

 

 

 

Whoever has control of the world's currency has control over the world. Muslims are very large in population but do not control what governments do. 

Rome has many good natured followers, and perhaps more political strength than Muslims, but they don't call the shots on a worldwide scale. 

It's the satanic forces of a tightly knit select group that have infiltrated every aspect of society. We in fact live in the society they have constructed ( over many generations of planning) and we're the frogs in a pot of water slowly being brought to a boil. 

Illuminati perhaps? 

[AdHoc]

On 12/15/2024 at 12:35 PM, Diaste said:

When I study the scripture and history about the end of the age empire I find the following:

It all starts in Daniel 2 in the interpretation of the dream.

You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.

History shows this is Nebuchadnezzar, then the Medes and the Persians, followed by Greece, with the fourth a mystery, as the Iron Kingdom is not identified by name. The other three are, just not the Iron Kingdom.

Daniel 8 clarifies;

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

History as well as scripture show this succession to be accurate. In Dan 5 we see Babylon fall to the Medes and Persians. The above shows the continued succession.

After Greece,

"The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation but will not have the same power."

This is the four Generals that eventually consolidated their respective kingdoms out of the thousands of satrapies of the Grecian Empire.

After years of fighting history reveals Cassander ruled Macedonia, Ptolemy held Egypt, Lysimachus ruled Asia Minor and Seleucid the great swath of land in the Middle East.

So far we have Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece and then the Diadochi. 

Daniel 11 iterates this in verses 1-3.

Daniel 11 also speaks to the wars of the Diadochi and the generations after. As evidence:

"29At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

This occurred just as written when the Roman ambassador stopped Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a grandson of Seleucus I, desire to conquer Egypt. Antiochus returned to Damascus stopping in Jerusalem and committing the A of D in verse 31. What then follows is what can only be described as the beast of Revelation in verses 36-37.

When the prophetic narrative foretells a Syrian kings from the line of Seleucid will commit the A of D, then what immediately follows is a prophecy of the beast of the end of the age, do we conclude an Arabic, Muslim, Islamic end of the age beast, or Rome?

 

 

 

Rome!

Here are my reasons

1. Daniel 9:26 defines the Nationality of the Prince by the people who destroy the Temple and City - Roman
2. The Beast was one of five kings, the sixth of which was reigning at John's time. Rome reigned then
3. John would life a full life and see seven such kings - all Romans
4. John would see a Roman king in his life who would reign again after he was resurrected
5. Eight is the number of resurrection and the king who "was" - "will be". He comes from the "bottomless pit"
6. Daniel said that this king would be a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple - a Roman 
7. His Name amounts to a number 666. The only Roman king this fits is Nero Caesar 1
8. The Beast rides the Woman. The Woman is soaked with the blood of saint who worshiped Jesus. The only persecutor of Jesus' disciples, who was a world power, is Rome
9. The Beast has seven heads, each representing a hill. The only Capital of the six world powers with seven hills is ROME
10. Rome is a major player in world and European politics. Rome facilitated both Hitler and the Russian Revolution
11. History shows Islam being founded in 610 AD. The fourth Kingdom of Daniel's interpretation defeated the third. Greece was defeated in about 145 BC

Although Islam is the biggest religion in the world with 1.6 billion adherents, it's majority live at the bread line. Its wealth is concentrated in a few oil-rich states that have small populations. It has proven its inability to wage war.

But perhaps the most telling proof is how, if these are four consecutive world powers, that is, one power disappeared after the next took over, how did the stone not cut out with hands wage war ONLY with the feet but destroy the whole figure? There is a structure that holds these Empires together even when the military/politico/economic mechanism is gone. There is one - they all had the same religion - the religion of Nimrod in Babel. Islam does not subscribe to Babylonian religion.

[Marilyn C]

Islam & my reasons from God`s word.

We know from scripture where the anti-Christ will arise & what his nationality is. We are also told that he is an Assyrian. Now this is a nationality even today. Andre Agassi, the famous tennis player is of  Assyrian descent.

 

Details of the anti-Christ –

 

His nationality – Assyrian.  (Isa. 31: 8     Micah 5: 5)

The region he comes from – the Ancient Assyrian Empire. (Dan. 11: 35 – 43)

Leader of Ancient Assyrian region -  Iraq, Syria & Jordan. (Dan. 7: 8)

Leader of Islamic Federation – 10 kings of Islam. (Dan. 7: 8,   Rev. 17: 12)

He rules the world – (Rev. 16: 13 & 14,     19: 19)

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Rome!

Here are my reasons

1. Daniel 9:26 defines the Nationality of the Prince by the people who destroy the Temple and City - Roman

X Fretensis, a legion of Arab conscripts, destroyed the Temple in defiance of orders from Titus

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

2. The Beast was one of five kings, the sixth of which was reigning at John's time. Rome reigned then

Depends on the date of Revelation.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

3. John would life a full life and see seven such kings - all Romans

Not if Revelation was the later date, there would be 13 kings

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

4. John would see a Roman king in his life who would reign again after he was resurrected

After whom was resurrected?

 

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

5. Eight is the number of resurrection and the king who "was" - "will be". He comes from the "bottomless pit"

That's not evidence of Rome.

 

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

6. Daniel said that this king would be a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple - a Roman 

See #1

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

7. His Name amounts to a number 666. The only Roman king this fits is Nero Caesar 1

 

I don't see gematria as factual evidence.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

8. The Beast rides the Woman. The Woman is soaked with the blood of saint who worshiped Jesus. The only persecutor of Jesus' disciples, who was a world power, is Rome

A persecutor of the disciples isn't mentioned as evidence for the identification for the end of the age beast and empire anywhere in Daniel.

 

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

9. The Beast has seven heads, each representing a hill. The only Capital of the six world powers with seven hills is ROME

This prophecy may not be referring to a world power like Rome. I tend toward the religion of Catholicism, not a secular, military power.

 

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

10. Rome is a major player in world and European politics. Rome facilitated both Hitler and the Russian Revolution

Rome and the RCC aren't synonymous

 

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

11. History shows Islam being founded in 610 AD. The fourth Kingdom of Daniel's interpretation defeated the third. Greece was defeated in about 145 BC

No. The prophecy says the kingdom was divided, not defeated. 

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Although Islam is the biggest religion in the world with 1.6 billion adherents, it's majority live at the bread line. Its wealth is concentrated in a few oil-rich states that have small populations. It has proven its inability to wage war.

Don't underestimate, hungry, angry zealots.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But perhaps the most telling proof is how, if these are four consecutive world powers, that is, one power disappeared after the next took over, how did the stone not cut out with hands wage war ONLY with the feet but destroy the whole figure? There is a structure that holds these Empires together even when the military/politico/economic mechanism is gone. There is one - they all had the same religion - the religion of Nimrod in Babel. Islam does not subscribe to Babylonian religion.

All religions are based on the same ideology of elevating man, and that ideology comes from Satan. Satan is at the helm behind the scenes of every religion ever conceived. 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Luther said:

Whoever has control of the world's currency has control over the world. Muslims are very large in population but do not control what governments do. 

Rome has many good natured followers, and perhaps more political strength than Muslims, but they don't call the shots on a worldwide scale. 

It's the satanic forces of a tightly knit select group that have infiltrated every aspect of society. We in fact live in the society they have constructed ( over many generations of planning) and we're the frogs in a pot of water slowly being brought to a boil. 

Illuminati perhaps? 

With the takeover of Syria radical Islam is now the dominant ideology in the Middle East. 

Radical Islam nearly destroyed the world once. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

A few years back, there was a debate between Dr Thomas Ice and Joel Richardson on this same subject. It got so heated that it led to an unprovoked attack by Ice calling Richardson a heretic simply because he didn't agree with Ice's position. People really get their backs up against a wall when their "theories" are opposed.

We are told in Dan 2 that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold and that the kingdom of Babylon was his to rule. The kingdoms that followed also ruled over Babylon. If you look at the statue, it is a continuous statue all the way down until it is crushed by the stone, which is Jesus when He comes.

Babylon is the key.

But when we look at Rome, things just don't seem to fit the criteria the bible lays out for  the fourth kingdom/beast in Dan 2 and 7.

Scripture says the fourth kingdom of iron will crush, trample, devour and pulverize the three kingdoms before it.... Dan 2:40

Rome did none of those things. Rome never controlled the Persian aspect of the empire .... Rome never crushed, trampled and devoured the Greek empire either... instead it assimilated much of the Greek culture into their own culture including the Greek language, architecture, dress, law, Greek gods, etc. 

If you look at Islam, when they battled and took over nations ... they destroyed pretty much everything. The architecture, the temples, the statues, they changed the language to Arabic, they allowed only one god to be worshipped, they changed dress code, laws,  changed calendars ... etc etc etc. 

Islam controls Babylon today ... 

Rome never did control Babylon. They marched to Babylon and were defeated by the guerilla tactics of the Arabs after less than one year and pulled back.

The western Roman empire was defeated in 476 AD. The Eastern Roman Empire continued on for another approx. 1000 years before falling to Islam. So the western leg was amputated and that left the statue standing on one leg only. Hmmm ???

So ... Rome never took the Persian kingdom, never crushed the Greek kingdom and never controlled Babylon. Those are the three metals after gold in the statue. 

Islam did.

And Islam controls them today. 

"Iron and clay don't adhere to each other' ... we clearly see this even today. Islam immigrates to Europe and many other nations but they don't mix with the cultures. They bring their own culture with them and try to change the cultures and laws of the countries where they immigrated to. 

 

I agree. Interestingly, Seleucid ruled Mesopotamia from Babylon. This is the path to understanding from whence the beast cometh, imo.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

"Iron and clay don't adhere to each other' ... we clearly see this even today. Islam immigrates to Europe and many other nations but they don't mix with the cultures. They bring their own culture with them and try to change the cultures and laws of the countries where they immigrated to. 

I see this as well. Perfect fit for the prophecy.